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kysus
Learned Scribe
USA
117 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 16:16:06
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Yes, there is a way to make spells to out perform 9th level spells, it would be epic level magic. Even a prismatic wall has its weakness, u can take it out one layer at a time or use a mord's disjunction, usually it would take a spell of higher level to negate the effects of a lower level spell. In the case of the mord's disjunction spell from what i understand it designed to be the end all spell as far as negating enchants in a normal non epic D&D game and in a way works outside the normal rules of spells in order to equal out the fact some spells cant be negated with dispel magic or antimagic shield. Usually i find the best thing to do is to test these spells out first using premade characters like the ones in the dm guide as well as compare them to similiar spells of the same level. Like if u used that aurora spell with another mage fighting u how much more different would it turn out when he is able to shrug off most of your spells your throwing at him. So the best advice i could give including from what happened in the fight with dendar is just to reavaluerate each of your home made spells compare them to other spells and test them out in different situations using generic characters to see how they preform, see what drawbacks they have for the amount of power they give u.
As far as very old Npcs not being surprised, i wasnt saying that, they very well could be surprised if the players were inventive enough in coming up with a way of dealing with them but what i was getting at is that a frontal brute force approach isnt going to get the players anywhere in a fight like that except maybe alot of losses and if they survive the experience of "i guess i know not to do that again". |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 16:21:41
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I realy think it is very important that high powerred NPC should be a challenge if indeed it is someone like Zsazz or Elminster. But if your character is level 80 it probably not gonna be much of a fight!
But anyhow, nobody should be impossible... IMO! And wiht the right combinations and rolls, everything is possible! |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 17:15:19
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quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
If you've got an 80th level character, you might be powergaming.
Yeah, I kind of blinked at that myself. Everybody has a different style, of course, and everybody should play the way they want, but the highest level I've ever managed to get to with a character was a 16th level wizard in first edition Greyhawk. If I remember correctly that was achieved through the twice a week kind of marathon play sessions you can do as a teenager, and it took almost four "real world" years.
In my current (4E) campaign, which I DM, the PCs made second level after their fourth four hour play session (these days playing from 1 to 5 every other Sunday afternoon is a lot more doable  ).
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My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
Edited by - Christopher_Rowe on 22 Sep 2008 17:16:01 |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 18:07:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
In my current (4E) campaign, which I DM, the PCs made second level after their fourth four hour play session (these days playing from 1 to 5 every other Sunday afternoon is a lot more doable ).
4E try to make the D&D experience more uniform across groups, some consider it's awful, others that it's great. Stopping the game at level 30 is part of this design approach.
No spell research rules in another.
Miscellanous spells as rituals, and limited Magic items are other.
All these tools were used to play Calvinball in the AD&D era. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 22 Sep 2008 18:09:22 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3252 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 18:30:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
All these tools were used to play Calvinball in the AD&D era.
Okay, third strike, Skeptic.
Please refrain from using 'Calvinball' as a derogatory term for AD&D, else I might start calling 4th Edition 'World of Minicraft'. We know you like 4th and you know some of us don't.
I know that we've thrown Shattered Realms, Wasbro and other terms around, and not always in the nicest way, but it's more a way of differentiating the new realms from the old or a acronym to describe the publishing company. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 18:58:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Please refrain from using 'Calvinball' as a derogatory term for AD&D
I'm not using "calvinball" as a derogatory term for AD&D, I'm only saying that this era was famous for it's "calvinball" style of play.
Nicolai showed here that it was around in 3.xE as well, and yeah I think it will be less common in 4E, but that's only one aspect of the game.
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Edited by - Skeptic on 22 Sep 2008 19:00:35 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3252 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 19:20:52
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| Sorry, if I mistook the tone of the message, but when talking 'calvinball', it is a game where the rules are made up as they go along, with each new rule either enhancing or negating a previous rule to the benefit of the individual player. I've never pictured AD&D/3.xE as being anywhere near this chaos. In fact, the only gaming system I can think of being like that are the 'war mini' games like Warhammer where every Codex that came out would 'best' the previous codex. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 19:21:37
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How about we all call the various novels, games, supplements, articles and, yeah, even editions by the names they were given by those who made them, and assume good will on the part of the creators in the absence of any evidence to the contrary? Of course we don't have to like all the work (or any of it), and we have every right to ask questions about why the work was ordered by the owners.
The people who do the writing, designing, painting, and mapmaking, though--those folks are a lot like us, y'know? Mostly in it for the stories, and just trying to make creditable contributions to this fictive world we all love within the parameters they've been given. |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 19:31:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
when talking 'calvinball', it is a game where the rules are made up as they go along, with each new rule either enhancing or negating a previous rule to the benefit of the individual player. I've never pictured AD&D/3.xE as being anywhere near this chaos.
That's what I'm talking about, and your damn lucky if you haven't see the horrors of AD&D 2E players doing it.
More than often, it came from players abusing a DM who couldn't stand up and when he did, it was for the worse .
"I'm tired of your gold dragon 20th level paladin, while you were gone, a meteor hit him dead !"  .
3.xE tried to reduce it with rules to cover every situation. We got the bag of rats and the bucket of snails.
4E is trying to do it by focusing the game (encounters = combat or skill challenge, no rules outside of encounters except rituals, etc.) and by giving back some power to the DM. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 22 Sep 2008 19:36:14 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3252 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 19:35:49
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Wow, Skeptic. You have quite possibly the worst group I've heard of if that's what's going on. I've never seen abuse of rules on that level and on a regular basis.
Is Nicolai in your group?  (Just kidding, Nicolai!) |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 19:38:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Wow, Skeptic. You have quite possibly the worst group I've heard of if that's what's going on. I've never seen abuse of rules on that level and on a regular basis.
That's tales from highschool (92-97) and not necesseraly from groups I was part of.
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 19:53:25
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My very first D&D game was with a group of guys older than me, who I only knew slightly at the time. I was a freshman in high school--13 years old--and they were, I think, all juniors and seniors. They were the only people I knew of who played the game in my small Kentucky town, and I finagled an invitation. I had the basic boxed set--which I'd purchased after watching the Mazes & Monsters made-for-tv movie--and rolled up a character before my mom drove me into town: Tybalt the Pious, 1st level cleric of Thor.
Well, they were playing AD&D, of course, but they didn't really seem to mind that I had a basic character, and that it was written out on a sheet of typing paper upon which I'd carefully traced the sample character from my red box. Since they were all playing five or six characters EACH, they'd developed a way of winnowing their character sheets down to 3x5 index cards. Every character had psionics, and every character had super-duper weaponry. I looked at the equipment list on the back of one card and saw listed, right between "+5 Holy Avenger" and "10' pole," the entry "adult green dragon." Which I imagine is a pretty handy piece of equipment for many situations.
So we went in to the steading of the hill giant chief, somebody opened a door, and here came a bunch of giants. The thirty or so other party members did some kind of psionic plane shift, leaving good old Tybalt with his footman's mace, bound for Valhalla.
Brings a tear to my eye. |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 02:35:18
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He he... great story!
I think we have talked enough about $ed and 3ed, so that story has run its course.
Just so we are clear, im not playing a lvl 80 wiz. Only a lvl 22!
When one combines the right feats, and spells (Canon) and stats one will find that one can build and extremely powerful character. And if I look en Elminsters stats, well only his hitpoints are higher than mine, and his str. and cha. score. In all other scores mine are higher. He has skills i dont and so forth, but man vs. man I kick his arse! ANd that is not counting my own spells. This is sad but true. He has thou the Chosen template and that will most likely save him, but other than that; I cant se him taking my down. I know my DM re writes the NPCs most of the time so that they reprisent a "higher" power but sooner or later we will become stronger! And what im trying to say is that I think we are getting there.
But one must also know that my char is only this potent against other spellcasters, figters and especially rogues kills him quite quikly. And thats why Manshoon died or his clone died. Apparently he was so statled, and angry that I got to him that he stayed in the fight not realy thinking. If this is how he would act "in real life" im not sure, but thats how it happened! So... Thats that.
But do all of you feel that our DM has done somthing completely wrong when I as a lvl 22 can be so powerful??? |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 02:39:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
But do all of you feel that our DM has done somthing completely wrong when I as a lvl 22 can be so powerful???
Nicolai, it is clear to me you are having a wonderful time in your game--so no, I at least don't thing you are doing anything wrong. |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36963 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 05:54:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
He he... great story!
I think we have talked enough about $ed and 3ed, so that story has run its course.
Just so we are clear, im not playing a lvl 80 wiz. Only a lvl 22!
When one combines the right feats, and spells (Canon) and stats one will find that one can build and extremely powerful character. And if I look en Elminsters stats, well only his hitpoints are higher than mine, and his str. and cha. score. In all other scores mine are higher. He has skills i dont and so forth, but man vs. man I kick his arse! ANd that is not counting my own spells. This is sad but true. He has thou the Chosen template and that will most likely save him, but other than that; I cant se him taking my down. I know my DM re writes the NPCs most of the time so that they reprisent a "higher" power but sooner or later we will become stronger! And what im trying to say is that I think we are getting there.
But one must also know that my char is only this potent against other spellcasters, figters and especially rogues kills him quite quikly. And thats why Manshoon died or his clone died. Apparently he was so statled, and angry that I got to him that he stayed in the fight not realy thinking. If this is how he would act "in real life" im not sure, but thats how it happened! So... Thats that.
But do all of you feel that our DM has done somthing completely wrong when I as a lvl 22 can be so powerful???
It's all a matter of opinion, really. You do seem to be having fun, and that's the most important part.
Me, I'd not enjoy that same game. For one thing, I enjoy a challenge. For another thing, if the DM was sticking to canon portrayals of these NPCs and playing them with some intelligence, then you'd be getting your butt handed to you, not the other way around. (Pre-4E) Canon is important to me, so if a book -- or several books -- tells me that Ba'ab the Mage is very sneaky and powerful, then I'd be disappointed if he wasn't played that way by the DM. I've had a lot of gamers over the years go on and on about how their characters are so powerful, and can easily defeat this, that, and the other epic thing, and I'm always thinking to myself "Not if I was running it".
By my personal standards (and keep in mind, what is wanted out of the game is different for every gamer, and can even vary per campaign or character), you are powergaming, and that's simply not something that holds any interest for me now. It did once, but that was long ago. |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 23 Sep 2008 05:57:56 |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 13:44:50
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I totally agree that in the case of Manshoon it was my DM and not Manshoon who was not thinking. And thats why I asked in the first place, couse it seemed wrong to me, that he was so easy. And well I hope in the future that NPCs, in the event that we face them, are much more dificult.
But yes we are having a lot of fun, and we are challenged almost every time we face somthing, which we do less and less but stil when we do, its a rare sight to see everyone walking out of the fight!
Well Thanks for all comments and basic feelings, it puts things in perspective and thats what I wanted with this! |
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Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - 23 Sep 2008 : 15:34:50
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| Let's put it this way your have more munchkinism in your campaign than was in the Wizard of Oz. It sounds like the days of yore when people used the Deities and Demigods book (the original one) as the MM3. A good DM (well, a good DM would have never let you research any of those spells or "walk in on" Manshoon), but a good DM would have had Manshoon have essentially your protection spell up and then blast you with his version of your turbo-charged disintegrate spell (after all, Manshoon is smart and would have likely thought of similar spell ideas in his 200 years of life). |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2008 : 00:05:10
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I know that he would, but I dont think my DM had thought of that. And thats the problem. But in our campaign one of his clones is dead non the less. But I wish I had not faced and killed him because who is the most wanted of the Zhents now??? I think me, and I was looking forward to less battle and more roleplaying, but now I have to fight off assasinations weekly now... Jesus I was stupid! And thats having an inteligence score of 34 . Dumsass... he he... I guess thats what you get for messing with Manshoon!
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3252 Posts |
Posted - 24 Sep 2008 : 13:53:09
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I agree with Wooly & the others, as long as you're having fun!
On a side note, however, when you're looking at El's stats in 3.X, please keep in mind that his ability scores are without any magic item bonuses. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Brunswick
Acolyte
Ireland
21 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2008 : 18:20:17
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| Just out of curiosity Nicolai, have you spoken to you DM about this? Maybe s/he doesnt know that things are going so easy for you? |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 29 Sep 2008 : 09:06:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I agree with Wooly & the others, as long as you're having fun!
Thats the whole point about gaming, BUT if things are too easy you are missing out on the uneasy feeling in your stomach and that - at least for me - is a huge part of fun, because you will be much more excited after having defeated a tough opponent than an easy one. So I always argue against "soft play" for the sake of even greater fun. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2008 : 23:29:51
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| True... sometimes its a walk in the park, but most of the time we know we face grave danger, but however dificult and incounter our DM throws at us, it happens sometimes that we run throug it... and sometimes we get owned! But all in all its pretty evenly mached. But yes... I totally agree, that when things get to be to easy, its looses its luster! |
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 01 Oct 2008 : 23:50:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
After playing for thirty yuears, I finally allowed the PCs to reach level 2.
Sheesh, what kind of Monty Hall DM are you? 
Heh, anyone else remember that word for describing DMs from way back when? |
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Tyranthraxus
Senior Scribe
Netherlands
423 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2008 : 00:24:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Well my char. is realy bad ass. The spells I have researched makes him a mage killer without equal. When you hurl maximized Issac's Missile Storms( From NWN) at your target damaging 240 each rund who can stand that. Also I have a spell almost as powerful a protection as Srinshee's Spellshift. I have fought other lvl 25 mages... same result! they just dont break my protection charm often enough. and then it is only a matter of time before they fall. Sadly.
And lastly. Our DM is realy good at giving us challenges. and an interesting campaign. But one on one with a wizard or sorcere... ill take down a lvl 30 I would amaging! Thats why im going aster Szass Tam. NO BIGGY! 
If I was your DM I would make it alot harder for you, like have you fight in a wild magic area or even a dead magic area or have your spellbook stolen or something. This would make te game more challenging for your character.
Anyway I don't really like playing epic level, my campaigns usually stop at level 15 max because after level 10 the characters are getting messy. A few weeks ago I wanted to check all the character sheets and there were so many mistakes I didn't know where to start.. the barbarian/fighter had a way too high attack bonus, the cleric/paladin forgot about 10 ranks... those kinda things. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2008 : 07:58:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
My very first D&D game was with a group of guys older than me, who I only knew slightly at the time. I was a freshman in high school--13 years old--and they were, I think, all juniors and seniors. They were the only people I knew of who played the game in my small Kentucky town, and I finagled an invitation. I had the basic boxed set--which I'd purchased after watching the Mazes & Monsters made-for-tv movie--and rolled up a character before my mom drove me into town: Tybalt the Pious, 1st level cleric of Thor.
Well, they were playing AD&D, of course, but they didn't really seem to mind that I had a basic character, and that it was written out on a sheet of typing paper upon which I'd carefully traced the sample character from my red box. Since they were all playing five or six characters EACH, they'd developed a way of winnowing their character sheets down to 3x5 index cards. Every character had psionics, and every character had super-duper weaponry. I looked at the equipment list on the back of one card and saw listed, right between "+5 Holy Avenger" and "10' pole," the entry "adult green dragon." Which I imagine is a pretty handy piece of equipment for many situations.
So we went in to the steading of the hill giant chief, somebody opened a door, and here came a bunch of giants. The thirty or so other party members did some kind of psionic plane shift, leaving good old Tybalt with his footman's mace, bound for Valhalla.
Brings a tear to my eye.
Sounds like Tybalt was in just a wee bit over his head. Seriously: the reason I'm responding to your post is that I love the fact that "Mazes and Monsters" got you into D&D. In my movie ratings, that one is right at the bottom of the barrel, along with "the" D&D movie. Yes, I thought that the Star Wars prequels were better. Either way, it's good to know that BADD is effectively defunct now: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bothered_About_Dungeons_and_Dragons
Nicolai: I'm with the vast majority of posters here. As long as you're having fun, you're doing it right. For myself and my group, we can have fun at just about any level, as long as we're being challenged and we like the ruleset and setting. I've played 1E and 2E Greyhawk, 2E Dark Sun, 2E and 3E Ravenloft, and 1E/2E/3E FR. No setting has been as popular with me or my players as FR, regardless of the level of play, and nothing about the new edition of the game or setting appeals to any of us beyond a couple of the smaller rules changes. If you had to give our game an edition number based on what we're using from which edition, it would probably be 3.6P (because we've integrated some of the changes in the Pathfinder Beta as well).
Game On! |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 16 Oct 2008 07:59:56 |
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Powergaming?
