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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 00:18:13
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Oh yeah... And ISM... In our campaign im the inventer of that spell, so thats why I called it mine |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 07:53:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
When you hurl maximized Issac's Missile Storms( From NWN) at your target damaging 240 each rund who can stand that. Also I have a spell almost as powerful a protection as Srinshee's Spellshift. I have fought other lvl 25 mages... same result! they just dont break my protection charm often enough. and then it is only a matter of time before they fall.
1. Did you notice the tiny differences between NWN and pen and paper D&D? (maximized hp and spells that dont appear in pen and paper like that Missile Storm - for a good reason: other spells are missing and to make up for it NWN has higher damage spells to try and make mages fun)
2. Hasnt there ever been an NPC who nukes YOU with Missile Storm?
3. Are all of your opponents always alone, because the Missile Storm randomly targets opponents with each missile?
4. If you compare the damage potential of the Missile Storm with pen and paper versions of the same level its a tad overpowered IMO.
5. None of your opponents seem to have the brains you have and get the "total protection" and "total offense".
To get back to the original question: Yes I do think you are overpowered with such "above average"(*1) stuff!
Magic is nice, magic is wonderful, but if things get too easy the "special" or "hard" things become "normal" and thus boring and you will need more exotic and wilder things to get excited. Thats where it tends to get ridiculous I think. So for your own excitement it might be a change of pace to try fighting with spells that are published in the D&D rules and maybe with a lot fewer magic items to get the "challenge factor" back.
Have you checked your personal gear against the monetary value table in the DMG (and dont forget to count in all the charged items you have already used up in your career)? That might come up as a lot higher than the table. All those "special spells" you mention should have cost a pretty penny to research(*2) and some sound a bit dubious to me. At least the "they just dont break my protection charm" part got me wondering. Even if you are within the suggested limits of monetary wealth I always think its better to have a substantially lower amount than that because "too much magic" usually enables the "Wizard gets invulnerable and nukes / controls everything" type of campaignbreaking boredom. Melee classes are gear dependant, BUT mages usually get "new skills" (like permanent flying or similar stuff) which frees up their daily spells for offensive capability (or the other way round and dailiy spells are used for defense and items are for nuking). So actually its the mages who are gaining more from high magic campaigns.
(*1) could also be: "too good" instead
(*2) Even the two spells gained each level for a Wizard are the result of research and even if the PHB (pg. 178) doesnt mention a cost that should be automatic. For high level spells this cost should be comparatively high as well. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 14:29:09
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You are indeed right, about the spells I have reseached. They cost a lot of gold pieces. about 20.000gp a piece. And the gear that im wearing comes to about 350.000 gp of gear. My spellbook costs about 120.000gp. Thats alot.. I know.
No! all my opponents are not alone, and as I stated I was attacked by 5 mages during the fight with Manshoon, and was forced to leave. But you feel that my spells sounds dubious. Well we do run a high lvl game, and yes many a times have I been struck with "my" own missile storm, and sometimes been near death. But now, most of the time I always cast Shield as a protection against that spell. So not much to worry about there any more. And If you all say that 40d6 is too much in FR, well I just say that it would be only a matter of time before someone raised the bar of what is possible. Thinks of Larloch...
During a year of reseach one can create quite the spells, and so thats what i've done. Mystra also says to alway try and create new magic.. Im just trying to pleace her!!! |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 14:31:55
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| Im curious... WHy would the assasins know my fighting style, and how would they know??? |
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StarBog
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 15:18:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Im curious... WHy would the assasins know my fighting style, and how would they know???
Because a) its their job to know, and b) Ask Mask?  |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 15:19:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Im curious... WHy would the assasins know my fighting style, and how would they know???
Here's an educated guess--skilled assassins coming after you probably have observed you in some way before striking, or the person who wants you dead has done some "research" about you. The point? There's no reason to assume these people would be unprepared. An assassination is by nature something planned (as far as I'm aware, anyway). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 03 Sep 2008 15:29:21 |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 15:26:07
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Well, never having doen any buisness with the zents, im not even sure they would know my namy! well... at least I dont think so!
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 15:28:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Well, never having doen any buisness with the zents, im not even sure they would know my namy! well... at least I dont think so!
And that's exactly why they'd be dangerous--they might be thinking about you even if you aren't thinking about them. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36912 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 17:12:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Well, never having doen any buisness with the zents, im not even sure they would know my namy! well... at least I dont think so!
If you defeated Manshoon, the Zhents know your name.
A lot of mages gain power by preying on other mages, too. I don't see why there wouldn't be any Zhent mages like that... |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 18:14:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Im Trying to get a feel of weather or nbot the campaing we are running are to high powered or not. Im wondering what kind of Magic gear do you alow in your campaign. +3, +5, +10? We are running an epic campaign but stil I somtimes feel we are getting to the point where it is to much. I mean, My char. just killed Manshoon, and is now going after Szass Tam. And after that the "Nether Scrolls"
I tend to keep an eye on my main NPC's and make sure they level up from time to time. After all, if your PC's are gaining power so should the others too.
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Could someone give a short discription of what level of power you rund in your home campaing
I start at level one and by about level 12 they should be considering founding some sort of organisation and having other people work for them. At that stage the games move more from action to politics. That's not to say there isn't still action but powerful characters should not be on the front lines. My favourite drow matron always said that if you had to resort to physical action you had already lost. She was only level 6 but as the matron her word was law and she had the other characters living in fear of her. She was fun. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Varl
Learned Scribe
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 18:22:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
My character is based on his extreme love and care for the weave and mystra and wants to gain phenominal cosmic power to better serve her and protect her; thats his thing.
I like how you've focused your character, not on the acquisition of raw power alone, but in order to serve and protect Mystra. It's greater goals like these that make the acquisition of raw power much more palatable to DMs like me. Well done. |
I'm on a permanent vacation to the soul. -Tash Sultana |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2008 : 18:53:40
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Thanks for the kind words. He wants to become the most powerful wizard of fearûn. Again to help and protect the weave and Mystra. This has resulted in some pretty powerful spell. Some might think to powerful, but they just ballance out what we get hurled at us!
It is only somewhat true, that a lvl 12 should be more involved in having people do the dirty things.
Sometimes there are no one good, strong or powerful enough for the job, and you stepp again onto the field of glory, proclaiming the name of your goddess, as you smite evil with you Disintegrating, all destroying, total anihilating, epic dusting, Death star crumbling, Supernova eminating, End of FR Cosmonologi, AO killing spell.
All whilst whistling: The road goes ever on and on, down from the door where it began... tra lalalala.... |
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Brunswick
Acolyte
Ireland
21 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2008 : 23:47:06
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Hi Nicolai,
Personally speaking, as a DM of the Realms since 1987, and having encountered many a power-gamer in my games over those years, I *do* think your game seems extremely overpowered. Players in my games have tried but failed to kill Manshoon over the years, as well as some other high level NPCs. Sometimes they have succeeded (as a Group) in killing a right-hand man of Manshoon or maybe one of the Zulkirs of Thay (they've always been afraid to go near Szass Tamm for some reason!!) but the players know, even at high level, that the gloves come off if they start trying to bite off more than they can chew. I dont "keep" the NPCs alive just because they are famous NPCs but as some of the other posters have alluded to, all of these high level Archmages have gotten to that level by being smart and they arent going to put themselves in a position where they can be killed by what they would consider an upstart mage.
I also think that some of your home-made spells sound a little bit too powerful (are these epic spells? - they cost an absolute fortune to develop).
I tend to be very stingy as a DM when a player develops a spell and I sometimes give it a test period (after I have tweaked it) to see how it works in play. If the spell is at all suspect, I errata it until I'm happy and then, if the player still wants it, then fair enough.
How experienced is your DM may I ask? The reason I ask is because you seem to be very confident of wasting Manshoon, Szass Tamm, and your Cleric has killed Fzoul Chembryl. This would be impossible for a solo mage/cleric to do in my game and even if the party co-operated, then you're still looking at Manshoon and his beholders, Sememmon and various Zhent "grunts" (12th level fighters and wizards and Priests) to deal with. Not to mention all the various tricks that Manshoon has up his sleeve as back-up.
So, yes I do, personally, think your campaign seems overpowered but its your game and what you enjoy that matters. Enjoy.
By the way, reading over the post again, I hope I didnt come across as patronising, as its not my intention. Different strokes for different folks I suppose.
Regards,
Bruns. |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2008 : 23:34:50
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I do like feedback thats why I asked in the first place, so dont be afraid to say your honest opinion.
Well our Dm has about 10 years of DM-ing 4 different groups, mainly. with a few non serious on the side. But the fact is that trying to keep the game in ballance and still trying the best to keep it fun for us, we have gotten a lot of good items... no artifact of cauce but realy good items. And the spell I have created makes me extremely powerful. here are 3 of them. these spells have been created in absolute secrecy, so that they could not be used against us!
Melcars Aurora
Transmutation
Level: Sor/wiz 9
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: One action
Range: Personal
Target: You
Duration: 1 min/lvl
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
When this spell is cast, the caster is transformed into raw magical energy. Silver white flames ingulf the caster and shines like a bright light in a 40ft. radius.
The shimmering, silver white flames protect the caster against any spell, spell like ability and effect that dublicate such to the extent of 50%. This silver fire also gives the caster a spell resistance equal to his caster level + int or cha modifier. And finally gives a + 2 bonus to spell DC and +2 bonus to spell penetration. (Competence)
Even if Dispel Magic or Mordenkainens Disjunction is used to remove a currently active spell, the caster can instead of losing the spell block out the dispell effect. This causes 1d4 points of damage per spell level. When employing this spell, the tremendous power unleashed, causes the caster to burn and thusly take 1d6 points of damage each round.
Material: Blod from the caster.
Melcars Disintegrating Blast
Transmutation
Level: Sor/wis 9
Components: V, S, M
Casting Time: One action
Range: Close (25ft. + 5ft./2 level)
Area: 40-ft.-radius spread
Duration: Instantaniously
Saving Throw: See text
Spell Resistance: Yes
The spell caster creates a black sphere, ingulft in dark green flames, betwene his hand and hurls it at his target. The sphere explodes in a blast of dark green flames, preseeded by a black blast wave. Every thing caut in the blast must atemt 2 saves. To survive. First a reflex to deturmen the fortitude save. If the reflex save is succesful, the DC of the fortitude is redused by 10. If not the fortitude is the same DC as the initial reflex save. If the fortitude save is failed the tagets effectet by the spell are instantly destroyed. Leaving only fine traces of dust. If the fortitude is succesful. Nothing happens to the tagets.
Material: Pinch of dust or pinch of bone
Melcars spell Enhancer
Universal
Level: Sor/wiz 9
Components: V, S
Casting time: One action
Range: Personal
Duration: See text
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
When this spell is cast, the caster is engulfed in blue, eerie flame. The next spell of the caster has its DC raised by the DC modifier of that caster. Intelligence for a wizard and charisma for a sorcerer.
Please tell me what you think of them! |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2008 : 23:37:39
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| And when my base DC of my spells is 28, 30 for Trans. and Evoc. Then it means I can boost my DC of my lvl 9 spell to 59, with other spells aswell... who is ganna save that??? |
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Vangelor
Learned Scribe
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2008 : 12:41:08
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Yes - you are powergaming. Extremely.
If that is the way you enjoy playing, then that is fine. But it is entirely beyond the scope of the Realms as-published, where high power imposes its own limitations on its weilder, and epic figures instead play out their agendas in subtle intrigues and long-term plots. |
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kysus
Learned Scribe
USA
117 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2008 : 17:05:56
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Well first i would like to say that if everyone is having fun in your game then by no means stop playing on someone elses account cause otherwise whats the point of playing in the first place.
As far as would it be considered power gaming I would have to agree with some of the others that yes i would consider it power gaming, taking out opponents of that caliber that easily should not be possible. And i understand that it is a high level game your playing in, I myself am in a high level campaign in the realms where our characters have started at level 1 and we have been playing them for almost 12 years now and our group ranges between level 25 and 30, and even we have not manage to pull off something like that. I find at higher levels in the realms that it is not as much of the players going with a more hands on approach like going to the wizards tower that is terrorizing this small town to bring justice to him and his minions but more or less like a chess game with the other major players of the world as u move your pieces "followers or what not" to meet your goals and people like manshoon or even a harper like elminster moving his pieces to stop u for whatever reason. To go after one of those powerful and influental people directly would and should be a suicide on your part, like the others have said before they have had years and lots of experience in crafting their own unique spells as well as spell dueling to have surived as long as they did, probally more time than your character has most likely and if u made it to level 25 then yes they probally would know who u were by then as im sure u have cause some small amount of disturbance in your career to draw their attention even for a little bit and if u have gained power at least at a decent pace then thats all someone like manshoon needs to put a zhent spy in your mists to keep tabs on your group so he could be prepared for u if u ever decided to cause some trouble in his domain.
As far as your equiment and spells go im really not sure what kind of equipment u are using. The spells though the basic idea is interesting of what they do are a bit broken some seem almost as if they were epic level spells in the benefits they give and i would hope that even when you and your DM agreed to let u have those spells in game that he also gave unique spells just as devastating to the villans as well to equal the playing field.
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2008 : 22:31:40
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Fist of all a have to agree that my DM was not well prepared when I attacked Manshoon. That said I am fully aware that I am now in their spot light and have come to wish i never did it in the first place. Also of what i can gather was only a clone.
Secondly the spells a have is pushed to the limit of what is possible for lvl 9 spell and I agree that our enemies must have the same devestating spells a have yet to encounter them.
Lastly I still have a hard time understanding how, if you were to engage, Manshoon or Zsazz Tam, and you dealt him enough damage than why should you loose. If one were to use Mordenkainens disjunktion and then blasted him with powerful damaging spells, sooner or later he would have to flee or go down... Or am I missing something? |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2008 : 23:22:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
well I just say that it would be only a matter of time before someone raised the bar of what is possible.
Why should it possible to do this WITHOUT EPIC SPELLS? Get a copy of the epic handbook to see the power these spells have and try to think of the "real spells" as the power level limit of what is possible there. Self-restriction is a GOOD thing and most of your spells really belong into the epic category.
40' radius "save or die"? You really think this *should be possible*? I always remind myself of the classic dont do unto others .... Would it be fun if some wizard manages to sneak up to your whole group and cast such a spell on you? I guess not.
Killing Manshoon has nothing to do with the DM being prepared or not if you have imbalanced spells and he hasnt. If he has your spells too then its fair game, but probably not fun. To answer your question: you should NOT be able to do enough damage to one of these bad guys, because they survived far longer than you have already and probably know the maxim:
He who flees and runs away
lives to fight another day.
Your spells include temporary DC boosts by the stat modifier. How do you justify that because the stats are already figured into the DC? Melcar's Aurora is a joke, because its an "all in one" protection spell. There is a reason why Wizards do NOT have a spell to give them Spell resistance. Adding a "this spell cant be dispelled" effect really makes it an unkillable spell and ridiculously overpowered. Simply compare what your spells are doing with epic spells or other 9th level spells ... even Meteor Swarm only does a maximum of 32d6 (on one creature you have to hit 4 times) or 24d6 to the rest of 40' radius compared to your "save or die" (saving twice wont matter since you probably boost your save DC through the roof so no one can save). |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2008 : 00:02:04
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| Well disintegrate deals 40d6 damage... And spell resistance can be gained with other spells than mine. I have created the spells under wards against scrying, so the only spell others have is missile storm, which deals 40d6. but that can be negated by the spell shield. so on that note, there are many possibilities for dealing a killing amount of damage to a high powered NPC.. IMO |
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kysus
Learned Scribe
USA
117 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2008 : 13:52:06
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Well using the mord's disjunction and the blasting away is just using another straight forward frontal assult tactic, in his long years of ruling the zhents dont u think some other mage would have tried that before, i would think so and he probally has something just for that. Im not sure about your games but in ours we put in a house rule when using mord's disjunction that instead of making a dc save to keep your spellcasting incase u destroy a artifact its a flat out 50% chance u loose your spellcasting all together. personally i would be very careful on what i use a mord's disjunction spell on especially high caliber villians that are most likely to have a artifact or two.
Also as far as the disintegrate spell goes it is a ray that u have to roll to hit as well as it has a single target with both a save and spell resist that could stop it and even if someone fails it its a maxim of 40d6 with any average save dc of around 20 not counting feats that could boost that which u could only go about another 6 points or so with the spell focus feats. Your spell is pretty much a fireball that has double the area of effect and is save or die effect no damage nothing which makes that extremely powerful and it doesnt even have an expensive component to help offset that. It would seem those spells were designed with just your characters abilities in mind with having high dc saves for them as far as the aurora spell a mord's disjunction or even a antimagic field should be able to stop that not matter what only epic level spells should have a chance of stopping those two spells.
Though there is one question that i have, seeing as your character wishes to gain all this power to better serve mystra and be able to protect her and the weave. Wouldnt killing other powerful casters be in contradiction to that since it was to her will that spellcasters create spells and spread this knowledge around as well as not to create spells or do things that harm the weave and seeing as how most of these villians like manshoon or zsazz tam actually follow mystra's ideals and the only evil that makes them villians is more in the political arena like the view on slavery or their carelessness for human life. So if u are looking at it in that extreme u would actually be hurting mystra by taking the potential of new and unique spells away, i would think that the true villians to go after would be people like shar and her followers who make it a point to hurt the weave and undermine mystra and her works. This is just my two bit cents so feel free to disagree and all. :) |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2008 : 04:31:36
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quote:
Originally posted by kysus
As far as the aurora spell a mord's disjunction or even a antimagic field should be able to stop that not matter what only epic level spells should have a chance of stopping those two spells.
Well antimagic field does not remove Prismatic wall... and if it it possible to create a spell like mordenkainens disjunktion it is also possible to create a spell that cant be disjunktioned.
quote:
Originally posted by kysus
Though there is one question that i have, seeing as your character wishes to gain all this power to better serve mystra and be able to protect her and the weave. Wouldnt killing other powerful casters be in contradiction to that since it was to her will that spellcasters create spells and spread this knowledge around as well as not to create spells or do things that harm the weave and seeing as how most of these villians like manshoon or zsazz tam actually follow mystra's ideals and the only evil that makes them villians is more in the political arena like the view on slavery or their carelessness for human life. So if u are looking at it in that extreme u would actually be hurting mystra by taking the potential of new and unique spells away, i would think that the true villians to go after would be people like shar and her followers who make it a point to hurt the weave and undermine mystra and her works. This is just my two bit cents so feel free to disagree and all. :)
actually this is a great point, which I odly enough never have thought of in the way you put it. A great way of thinking of it. Thanks.
quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
If I might - let's put it this way: Manshoon has been around for almost 200 years (and forgive me, I'm just working off of the top of my head), he's been dealing with a slew of mage-killers throughout his career, he's at or near the top of the Zhentarim, and you think that you're going to surprise him?
How did you find out where he is? In the unlikely event that you actually show up in the same place that he happens to be, why would he possibly stick around? Wouldn't his first reaction be to teleport away?
Alright. Let's say you killed Manshoon. His stasis clone awakens. His life goal will be to destroy, utterly, the individual who killed him. He has nearly unlimited resources. He can send 200 assassins against you, and would, because he doesn't care if 199 of them die. Does your PC sleep?
The point is: there are NPCs who are intended to be nearly indestructible. Destroying them ought to be as epic a quest as destroying Sauron. If it's not that hard, at least, then yes, you're power gaming.
I totally get your point and have talked about this with my DM. The whole reason for me asking in the first place, was because a thought it way too easy to kill him (clone). ANd now yes I have a mad man wanting my head. So i do think it should be very dificult to kill a high powered npc indeed, but one must also remenber that my char. age 44 has doen nothing since adulthood than adventuring and facing grave danger every week almost. Why is it not just possible that a PC can become more powerful that any NPC??? Im not saying my char. is,(not even close) but I think that it could happen! |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2008 : 17:27:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Why is it not just possible that a PC can become more powerful that any NPC??? Im not saying my char. is,(not even close) but I think that it could happen!
Absolutely, it could happen.
But as most of the powerful NPCs spent many lifetimes (literally) amassing their power, it plays havoc with the internal logic of the game world if it's possible to reach the same level of power, preparation and knowledge in just a few short decades.
Manshoon, Szass Tam, Oysar Shoon VII, Telamont Tanthul and other such mages have all spent more than one human lifetime, hells, for most of them more than a century, just engaged in high-level spell research. They've also spent lifetimes adventuring. And lifetimes in gathering powerful magical items and artifacts. And lifetimes in creating such items.
Even Manshoon, the 'youngest' man on that list, has been an active adventurer for more than a century. He was born in 1229 DR, for crying out loud.
I don't think that twenty years of adventuring is likely to yield as much power as his century and odd change of the same. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 01:24:34
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That is true... it would seem wrong indeed. And a hope it was a onetime mistake on my DM's behalf that made it that easy...
But just a note. Just for fun i tried battling Dendar - The Night Serpent and won. With out cheeting and using my home researched spell...
What does people say to that? |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 01:46:34
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I've heard of many tales of D&D games that have a Calvinball feel, custom spells being a common part of it.
I agree with many here that killing dozens of famous NPC is cheesy.
But, I don't agree with the "this many century old NPC should never be surprised by the PCs because he has hundreds of contingency plans".
PCs are the protagonists and if the players are interested in fighting famous villains they have read about in novels, it is certainly a good thing for a DM to come up with a "level appropriate" fight with such NPCs.
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Edited by - Skeptic on 22 Sep 2008 01:49:49 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36912 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 04:04:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
Why is it not just possible that a PC can become more powerful that any NPC???
No one is saying that PCs can't be more powerful than NPCs. Indeed, a great many NPCs are low level, and it's entirely reasonable for PCs to become more powerful than them.
What people are saying is that many of the high-level NPCs are either exceedingly powerful, exceedingly good at staying alive, and/or both, and that defeating them should not be a cakewalk. I apologize if I'm reading you wrong, but many of your posts seem to indicate that these iconic NPCs have indeed been easy for your character to defeat -- and that's the part we have a problem with.
There is nothing at all wrong with wishing to oppose powerful NPCs. It's just that published lore indicates that fighting these guys is anything but easy, even for some of those who are more powerful. And just about everyone one of these folks will not only be smart enough to leave a losing fight, but they will have the means to do so.
One more thing: levels are not the only way to judge power. Anyone, given enough time and resources (including brainpower), can be a challenge to a vastly more powerful foe. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 04:08:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
PCs are the protagonists and if the players are interested in fighting famous villains they have read about in novels, it is certainly a good thing for a DM to come up with a "level appropriate" fight with such NPCs.
If a 2nd level (or 12th, 22nd, etc.) adventurer expressed a desire to fight Szass Tam, I wouldn't create a level appropriate version of him for that player. I'd notify the player that his character was planning something that would most likely get him killed and then leave it up to him whether he wanted to proceed.
Like I've said before, I don't believe that it's necessarily good for either the players or the GM if the campaign world is designed simply to provide 'level appropriate challenges' for the PCs. For one thing, it begs the question of why they bother to advance in level if the foes they face always stay about as dangerous. For another, it tends to play havoc with the interal consistency of the world, which bothers all roleplayers I've met.
If a player in a game completely without magic or supernatural powers wants his character to be able to jump off a cliff and fly under his own power, I don't see it as the GM's job to provide him with a 'level appropriate challenge' to do so. The GM can simply allow the player to find out about gravity the hard way.
In the same way, if a player wants his promising, but young, wizard to be able to face wizards who have several centuries on him in experience and possess resources several orders of magnitude over anything he can access... I don't see the problem with allowing him to find out that he lives in a world where actions have consequences.
Being the protagonist of a story, even a fantasy story, doesn't mean that someone is the most powerful being in the world that the story is set in. Frodo couldnīt walk up to Sauron, flip him the finger and expect him to be a 'level appropriate challenge'. Bilbo knew damn well that facing down Smaug with his sword would only lead to a short career as a tasty morsel.
In fact, only in the kind of simplistic, naive literature that represents the worst of fantsy fiction has to offer can the protagonist expect to vanquish all evil from the world in the space of a trilogy or so. |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 04:27:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
If a 2nd level (or 12th, 22nd, etc.) adventurer expressed a desire to fight Szass Tam, I wouldn't create a level appropriate version of him for that player. I'd notify the player that his character was planning something that would most likely get him killed and then leave it up to him whether he wanted to proceed.
Like I've said before, I don't believe that it's necessarily good for either the players or the GM if the campaign world is designed simply to provide 'level appropriate challenges' for the PCs. For one thing, it begs the question of why they bother to advance in level if the foes they face always stay about as dangerous. For another, it tends to play havoc with the interal consistency of the world, which bothers all roleplayers I've met.
In fact, only in the kind of simplistic, naive literature that represents the worst of fantsy fiction has to offer can the protagonist expect to vanquish all evil from the world in the space of a trilogy or so.
Doing a 2nd level or 12th level version of Szass would probably ruin the experience for all the players around the table if they have some interest in the setting.
The idea is that they shouldn't ask for thing that will ruin the setting experience for them. If they don't care about the setting, there is no point in wanting to fight Szass in the beginning.
The PCs can certainly meet NPCs far more or far less powerful during their adventures, I ask only DMs not to trap the players in situation where they have to guess if it's appropriate to fight or not without any relevant information.
Is LoTR simplistic and naive ? Because I know many simulationist RPG (games which put emphasis on game world consistency) where Frodon wouldn't have reached Mt. Doom.
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Edited by - Skeptic on 22 Sep 2008 04:28:17 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 04:42:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
Doing a 2nd level or 12th level version of Szass would probably ruin the experience for all the players around the table if they have some interest in the setting.
The idea is that they shouldn't ask for thing that will ruin the setting experience for them. If they don't care about the setting, there is no point in wanting to fight Szass in the beginning.
Well, I think that people in positions of power in large organisations are more difficult to defeat than those without such a power base. As such, Manshoon and Szass Tam are far more dangerous than even their level would suggest and I would caution any players seeking to antagonise them of this fact.
That's not to say that I haven't run campaigns where the players have made enemies of both of them, but at least the NPCs were presented in a way that made sense within the game world.
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
The PCs can certainly meet NPCs far more or far less powerful during their adventures, I ask only DMs not to trap the players in situation where they have to guess if it's appropriate to fight or not without any relevant information.
Well, in a situation where the characters have no idea of the power of their foes or perhaps even their identity, prudence would indicate that discretion is the better part of valour.
Anyone wishing to live a long life as an adventurer should avoid fights when he doesn't have some information that leads him to conclude that the reward matches the risk.
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
Is LoTR simplistic and naive ? Because I know many simulationist RPG (games which put emphasis on game world consistency) where Frodon wouldn't have reached Mt. Doom.
But Frodo did reach Mt. Doom. Therefore, any simulation where he doesn't must be a flawed simulation.
And reaching Mt. Doom didn't mean that the protagnist personally defeated every single enemy. It didn't mean that evil disappeared or that all the harm done was reversed. It didn't even mean that Frodo could live happily ever after, precisely because LotR isn't naive about the effects of violence on the person who experiences it (and deals it out).
That being said, novels aren't roleplaying games. And while we may enjoy some tales while knowing that they'll end with the good guys winning, the same doesn't necessarily go for playing a game where there is no possibility of failure.
I've had as much fun with campaigns where the players failed to save the princess (artifact/kingdom/McGuffin) as ones where they succeeded. The play's the thing, not the victories racked up during it.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 14:27:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There is nothing at all wrong with wishing to oppose powerful NPCs. It's just that published lore indicates that fighting these guys is anything but easy, even for some of those who are more powerful. And just about everyone one of these folks will not only be smart enough to leave a losing fight, but they will have the means to do so.
And besides, I would think that those who wish to fight the powerful and famous NPCs would at least want it to be a challenge? If it's a cakewalk, what's there to brag about? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
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Powergaming?
