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keijemon
Acolyte
49 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 22:21:21
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I don't quite see what the hubbab is about. The old realms didn't go anywhere. You can still adventure there, you can easily apply new rules there (mostly patron deity name change is all you need). And you get great creative space trying to fill in the missing 100 years with adventures that would go through the motions as you would like them to appear. The old FR with all its history and characters didn't go anywhere, why is everyone acting like it did? Just stay in the past until the present gets more developed with novels and supplements.
Or are there people in your houses holding guns to your heads, telling you that you can only use 4e rules in 4e FRCG setting? |
The greatest trick Ao ever pulled, is convincing Toril he didn't exist. |
Edited by - keijemon on 31 Aug 2008 22:24:36 |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 22:45:11
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quote:
Originally posted by keijemon
I don't quite see what the hubbab is about. The old realms didn't go anywhere. You can still adventure there, you can easily apply new rules there (mostly patron deity name change is all you need). And you get great creative space trying to fill in the missing 100 years with adventures that would go through the motions as you would like them to appear. The old FR with all its history and characters didn't go anywhere, why is everyone acting like it did? Just stay in the past until the present gets more developed with novels and supplements.
Of course, the past didn't go anywhere, but they have robbed the future. Since they have ruined the realms, they would have to massively alter the changes introduced with 4e to make the present realms palatable. The 4e desaster banishes realms fans to the past and blocks them from the "realms" of the present or from getting new, official developments derived from the pre-1385 state of affairs. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 01:20:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Either that, or [booming deity voice begins]...... HAVE LATHANDER, IN THE FACE OF SUCH DESTRUCTION, AND OUT OF GENUINE FEARS THAT AUMANATOR IS ABOUT TO BUMP HIM OUT OF OFFICE, FINALLY INITIATE HIS DAWN CATACLYSM, ESSENTIALLY RESETTING THE REALMS TO 1373~ISH. yeah! 
Using a second Dawn Cataclysm is an interesting idea for a reboot... Though it's hard to figure out how to do it in the Shattered Realms, since Lathander isn't around, then.
I think PDK was suggesting Lathander initiate a second Dawn Cataclysm before the aspect of Amaunator re-established itself. |
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 03:48:44
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| "Second" dawn cataclysm? I think my memory is failing... did F&P not refer to the Dawn Cataclysm as something to come? I don't remember about a "first" dawn cataclysm... although I seem to recall something about the gods not liking it... |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 04:10:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
"Second" dawn cataclysm? I think my memory is failing... did F&P not refer to the Dawn Cataclysm as something to come? I don't remember about a "first" dawn cataclysm... although I seem to recall something about the gods not liking it...
The first Dawn Cataclysm is the oft-debated one that happened "outside of time", and presaged the fall of Myth Drannor. Murdane was slain during it, and it was at this time that Tyche split into Tymora and Beshaba (though this has no apparent connection to the Dawn Cataclysm). We really don't know much more about it than that... But, going by a couple of tidbits and ignoring the "outside of time" explanation (which I have never liked), it's pretty much been narrowed down to having happened some time between 700 DR and 712 DR. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 04:12:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
"Second" dawn cataclysm? I think my memory is failing... did F&P not refer to the Dawn Cataclysm as something to come? I don't remember about a "first" dawn cataclysm... although I seem to recall something about the gods not liking it...
I think the confusion stems from the fact that we don't have an official marking point on the timeline for the Dawn Cataclysm itself. Some indications suggest it occured in the past, and thus would establish your proposed idea as a *second* Dawn Cataclysm I suppose. If we take the "outside of the timeline" explanation offered by Eric Boyd for the Dawn Cataclysm, then the theory you propose would probably involve THE Dawn Catacylsm.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 01 Sep 2008 04:13:27 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 05:50:19
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quote:
Originally posted by arry
The only thing that springs to mind is to reintroduce some of the excellent NPCs that Ed. Greenwood (& others) developed. Also I would suggest that you ignore the 'PCs are the most powerful people in the world' idea.
This is pretty much what I was going to say.
It was the hundreds of interesting people (NPCs) that made the Realms first come alive for me.
And the Intrigues are a big thing, too, for flavor. Re-establish some of them as being as poweful as pre-Spellplague, but now being much more covert about it (Like the Zentarim, Harpers, and Red Wizards).
Oh... and don't let all the 'new empires' eclipse the past ones. Ruins are what make the Realms the Realms, so focusing on 'Old Netheril' or ' Old Imaskar', rather then their born-again counterparts, is the way to give it some of that old-school feel. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Sep 2008 05:51:18 |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 06:17:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The first Dawn Cataclysm is the oft-debated one that happened "outside of time", and presaged the fall of Myth Drannor. Murdane was slain during it, and it was at this time that Tyche split into Tymora and Beshaba (though this has no apparent connection to the Dawn Cataclysm).
"Tyche found herself embroiled, along with the rest of her circle of deities, in a war between the gods resulting from the actions of a current pararmour. Always fickle with her favor, Tyche kissed the Morninglord with misfortune and wandered off to explore the realms." (F&A, p 44) Then the attack of Moander occured.
Without Tyche's action Lathander's plan would probably have been successfull, and Moander's attack on her seems to be a maneuver of the aforementioned gods' war. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 13:42:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The first Dawn Cataclysm is the oft-debated one that happened "outside of time", and presaged the fall of Myth Drannor. Murdane was slain during it, and it was at this time that Tyche split into Tymora and Beshaba (though this has no apparent connection to the Dawn Cataclysm).
"Tyche found herself embroiled, along with the rest of her circle of deities, in a war between the gods resulting from the actions of a current pararmour. Always fickle with her favor, Tyche kissed the Morninglord with misfortune and wandered off to explore the realms." (F&A, p 44) Then the attack of Moander occured.
Without Tyche's action Lathander's plan would probably have been successfull, and Moander's attack on her seems to be a maneuver of the aforementioned gods' war.
Moander didn't directly attack her, though. He noted that she had wandered off, and he put a rose in her path. She pluck the rose (poking herself on the thorns) and put it in her hair. From there, Moander was able to corrupt her. When Selûne saw that she had been corrupted, she zapped her and Tyche split.
So as I see it, it wasn't a result of the Dawn Cataclysm. Moander saw an opportunity and took it, and it just happened that this occurred during the DC. It wasn't a result of it, as Tyche could have wandered off at any time. |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 13:58:42
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| I am not so sure if Moander would have seized the opportunity to corrupt Tyche if the Dawn Cataclysm would not have occured at that time. After all, Lathander tried to get rit of some evil gods, most probably Moander, too, and he in retaliation attacked Lathander's love. But I am speculating. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 15:29:58
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| I wonder if in this case, "outside time" could be fairly taken as "whenever a Dungeon Master wants?" |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 16:13:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
I wonder if in this case, "outside time" could be fairly taken as "whenever a Dungeon Master wants?"
That's a fair enough assumption, I think. Basically, in terms of Eric's theory, the Dawn Cataclysm *may* have occured outside the timestream and, thus, could not be properly dated. That pretty much leaves the door wide open for the DM to utilise the event when he/she wants.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 01 Sep 2008 16:15:14 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 16:47:55
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Which makes me wonder - wasn't Mystra in charge of all the connections between Toril and Temporal Prime?
Without her, I'm wondering if anyone is monitoring the Timestream and keeping things right. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36906 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 16:55:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
I am not so sure if Moander would have seized the opportunity to corrupt Tyche if the Dawn Cataclysm would not have occured at that time. After all, Lathander tried to get rit of some evil gods, most probably Moander, too, and he in retaliation attacked Lathander's love. But I am speculating.
I've not seen any indications that Moander had any personal stake in what was going on. It's certainly possible that he did, but in the absence of those indications, I think he simply saw a chance and took it. I also think he was likely waiting for such an opportunity, and it would have happened sooner or later regardless of what else was going on at the time. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 17:15:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Which makes me wonder - wasn't Mystra in charge of all the connections between Toril and Temporal Prime?
Mystryl had the Time portfolio, but she really didn't do anything with it.
quote:
Without her, I'm wondering if anyone is monitoring the Timestream and keeping things right.
Amaunator of course. He misinterpreted another passage on another contract you see, and thus, thinks he's the "god of time" again.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 02 Sep 2008 01:21:05 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 17:20:33
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LOL - I had forgotten about that.
I think Amaunator must use a devil for his attorney. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 17:23:36
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Don't you mean Mystryl? :)
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Mystra had the Time portfolio, but she really didn't do anything with it.
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 01:12:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Don't you mean Mystryl? :)
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Mystra had the Time portfolio, but she really didn't do anything with it.
Aye. That's the one. Sorry, I was kinda already halfway to bed when I wrote that. It must've slipped my mind.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 02 Sep 2008 01:12:46 |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 04:14:21
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Which makes me wonder - wasn't Mystra in charge of all the connections between Toril and Temporal Prime?
Mystryl had the Time portfolio, but she really didn't do anything with it.
quote:
Without her, I'm wondering if anyone is monitoring the Timestream and keeping things right.
Amaunator of course. He misinterpreted another passage on another contract you see, and thus, thinks he's the "god of time" again.
Somewhere, Labelas Enoreth must be laughing... |
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questing gm
Master of Realmslore
Malaysia
1650 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 06:49:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Halidan
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Alright, folks, let's find our way back to the topic. 
Thanks Wooly. I was about to make this same plea myself, but I appreciate your assistance.
Folks - while I appreciate (and even agre with) many of the frustrations expressed about the FRCG, I really do want to work with this book. I may not like how the FRCG presents the post-Spellplague Realms, but for many new Realms fans, this book will be how they are now introduced to the Realms.
What my original post was trying to accomplish was to get the Realms fans and experts on this board to help me identify what needs to be added to the FRCG to give new FR gamers the same experience that the rest of us have enjoyed for 20+ years.
With the collective Realms knowledge on this forum, we should be able to figure out what suplimental information is needed to allow the currently missing "Realms magic" to spring forth from the FRCG. I really want folks who are now meeting the Realms for the first time to be able to experience this "magic." I just can't figure where to start. I'd really welcome your help.
I really admire and appreciate what you are trying to achieve with this and really wish you luck.
But I find this a very hard thing to do. I'm not so sure if we can still find traces of reliving the 'magic' of the old Realms because so much has changed and the way that the very magic itself worked has also dramatically changed. Maybe if we pin-pointed what exactly is this 'magic' you speak of then we can head towards a certain direction.
I do think that if we tried to find something that helps us get the 'exciting feeling' that we used to get from the old Realms, then i think that is plausible which involves a rewrite of how we are introduced to the Realms.
'Old Setting, New (exciting) Flavor,' of a sort.
I'm guessing that some of us are just bitter because we had to know what was being 'destroyed' for the new setting instead of concentrating on what's the new things about the Realms. I still haven't read the FRCG mind you, so maybe I'm just babbling what I don't know. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 17:06:09
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Don't mean to beat a dead horse, but seriously - it's MUCH easier to take the things you like in 4e and put them into the 3e world then the other way around.
If I use FR for gaming at all (and at this point, I'm still undecided weather to just walk away from FR as a game setting), I wil create an amalgam of the two, using all the old locales and descriptions from works like the Volo's Guides, and just sprinkling in some of the 4e stuff (Eminenece of Araunt, Warlock Knights, Genasi and Earthmotes, ect...).
The rules edition you use should not matter if you do this, because, seriously, do you really need stats for every shopkeep and Tavern owner? The old material has all the descriptive text you need to run interesting encounters, and any combat situations should be planned ahead with adversaries using the edition of preference.
I don't see much of a reason to go through all the trouble of 'converting' 1e/2e/3e FR material into 4e, because the thing that made FR so great was the fluff, which is really edition-neutral. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Sep 2008 17:06:49 |
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Halidan
Senior Scribe
USA
470 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 18:38:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I don't see much of a reason to go through all the trouble of 'converting' 1e/2e/3e FR material into 4e, because the thing that made FR so great was the fluff, which is really edition-neutral.
I think you misunderstand what I'm asking for help with Markustay. I'm not looking to convert 3+ editions of FR material to 4E. I'm asking what bits and pieces (or if you prefer what types of FR lore and fluff) need to be added to the descriptions in the FRCG to give the 4E Realms the same "magical feel" that the previous edition had?
Like it or not, the FRCS (and all 3.5 editions of previous FR material) are no long being printed. Even with the availabliity of pdf's and the collective knowledge of places like Candlekeep, that lore will become less and less accessible to the new FR gamer as time goes by.
I'm not satisfied with what's been presented in the FRCG. It's too sterile and washed clean of the old FR feeling. I just re-read the grey box set this weekend, and I'm more convinced than ever that the FRCG pales in comparision to it.
So, I'd like to figure out what needs to be added to the FRCG to allow it to give a better representation of the Realms we all know and love. |
"Over the Mountains
Of the Moon
Down the Valley of the Shadow,
Ride, boldly ride,"
The shade replied,
"If you seek for Eldorado!"
Edgar Allen Poe - 1849 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 02 Sep 2008 : 18:41:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Halidan
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I don't see much of a reason to go through all the trouble of 'converting' 1e/2e/3e FR material into 4e, because the thing that made FR so great was the fluff, which is really edition-neutral.
I think you misunderstand what I'm asking for help with Markustay. I'm not looking to convert 3+ editions of FR material to 4E. I'm asking what bits and pieces (or if you prefer what types of FR lore and fluff) need to be added to the descriptions in the FRCG to give the 4E Realms the same "magical feel" that the previous edition had?
Like it or not, the FRCS (and all 3.5 editions of previous FR material) are no long being printed. Even with the availabliity of pdf's and the collective knowledge of places like Candlekeep, that lore will become less and less accessible to the new FR gamer as time goes by.
I'm not satisfied with what's been presented in the FRCG. It's too sterile and washed clean of the old FR feeling. I just re-read the grey box set this weekend, and I'm more convinced than ever that the FRCG pales in comparision to it.
So, I'd like to figure out what needs to be added to the FRCG to allow it to give a better representation of the Realms we all know and love.
Well that is a tall order, but it is what Ed intends to tackle with his web articles. But with its 2 page spread format, even if we got one a week(which I think we may get 1 per month) it will take much more time than we all would like.
If I were you I would try to pick the brain of someone like Brian James as well on this subject, I know he is a bust man, but he knoews his stuff! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Recovering what's been lost
