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Tasker Daze
Seeker
84 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 14:10:23
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quote:
PA: By the summer of 2005, there wasn’t a whole lot left of Faerûn to discover. We’d spent the last fifteen years or so detailing just about every nook and cranny of the map, in hundreds of books, game products, short stories, comic books, Dragon articles, and Dungeon adventures. There was hardly a square centimeter on the poster map that wasn’t detailed somewhere, and frankly it was getting harder and harder to find room to tell a story. Authors, game designers, and DMs alike were being pushed farther and farther off to the edges. We knew we needed new places to discover, and the ability to refresh the core FORGOTTEN REALMS so that even the Dalelands had some surprises in store.
Yeah, once something has been described, there's nothing else that can ever be said about that area. The fact that much game time had elapsed means nothing. The fact that most areas didn't have that much coverage also means nothing. 
quote:
BRC: Even my own first steps in novel fiction showed me how the novels and games were having to move to obscure spots to tell new stories. Darkvision takes place largely in Durpar, a country hardly even on the map. Stardeep was hidden away in a hardly visited eladrin realm behind the Yuirwood forest in Aglarond. Other folks were finding themselves similarly squeezed to the edges—even long-time writers in the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting. It was a trend the editors noted first.
There's a law that prohibits any one area from hosting more than one story, obviously. But it makes sense -- surely, in any given city of a few thousand, there couldn't be two people that find themselves in an interesting situation. The odds against that are just too high.
quote:
What do you do when all the ancient realms have already been explored and discovered?
Blow everything up, because nothing is interesting if we know it's there!
I find this article to be self-serving and an insult to the intelligence of both the readers and of anyone (other than this design team) who has ever done anything for the Realms.
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Edited by - Tasker Daze on 29 Aug 2008 14:11:39 |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 14:14:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
PA: By the summer of 2005, there wasn’t a whole lot left of Faerûn to discover.
<<snipped for brevity>>
Authors, game designers, and DMs alike were being pushed farther and farther off to the edges. We knew we needed new places to discover, and the ability to refresh the core FORGOTTEN REALMS so that even the Dalelands had some surprises in store.
The bold emphasis is mine.
To critique this entire article and do justice to what has been said will take a long time. But the quote above I find particularly insensitive and patronising.
As a DM in the Forgotten Realms for 21 years I have never ever felt pushed out by the products that have been released, nor have I been forced to run my campaign 'off the map' because the history of the Realms was impacting upon my game and stifling my creativity as well as spoiling the players fun and enjoyment.
I have no doubt that some authors wanted new places to write about. But to say that DM's needed the same and to use this as 'proof' that the 4E Realms needed to have such dramatic changes made to it, shows a lack of respect for DM's and their ability to run creative, interesting and fun campaigns within the boundaries of 'known Faerun'.
Take out 'and DMs alike' and I understand what they are trying to achieve with the conceptual changes, but leave it in and I feel insulted that they are using me (and perhaps other DM's, feel free to pipe up if you wish) as justification for the changes to the 4E Realms. If WoTC want to use me as a reason for something I will let them know, until then i would prefer that they don't assume I (other DM's?) need something so dramatic to happen to allow me (us) to enjoy playing in the Forgoten Realms.
Just my thoughts
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 14:14:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Tasker Daze
quote:
BRC: Stardeep was hidden away in a hardly visited eladrin realm behind the Yuirwood forest in Aglarond.
I thought they were the star elves? Have I not been paying attention? I know that in $E they are now eladrin but in True Faerun they were/are star elves weren't they?
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Death is Life
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Revenge is Forgiveness
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 14:38:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
D&D 1974 (about 4 years before edition change)
AD&D 1977-79 (about 11 years before edition change)
2nd Edition 1989 (11 years before edition change)
3rd Edition 2000 (3 years before edition change)
3.5 Edition 2003 (5 years before edition change)
$ Edition 2008
So at the start, it made sense that the designers issued an improved version fairly early with D&D becoming AD&D. Then there seemed to be a nice pattern of about 11 years, shall we say a decade for each edition. Then we get to this decade and we've already had two new editions. I count 3.5 as a new edition because it had required the three core books to be issued.
Also 2E had a revision which also had revised core rules, prior to 3E coming out. I think informally many of us called it 2.5. |
Edited by - scererar on 29 Aug 2008 14:40:15 |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 14:58:02
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quote:
Originally posted by scererar
Also 2E had a revision which also had revised core rules, prior to 3E coming out. I think informally many of us called it 2.5.
It did? are you talking about the player options books? if so they were options, not core rules and did not impact on game materials printed after they came out unlike 3.5 which did become the core rules and anything printed after them did include the new rules.
Not trying to be picky here with you.
Cheers
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 17:39:31
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| I am still confused as to why they felt that they needed to remake the continent of Faerun since it was so well detailed. Why not detail the other continents (Osse, Katashaka, Anachrome, et cetera) and landmasses and make the 4e stuff come from there. They have had a supplement for each of the continents in the Eberron Campaign setting. Something they did in 3 years. Yet instead of doing this with Toril, they decide that the main continent (and another one across the ocean) need to be swapped out/blown up/mutated/and otherwise remade. Why was this the logical conclusion? Maybe I am just stupid, or maybe there just is no reason that would convince me, but I still have not seen a well-thought-out and well-reasoned approach as to why they came to this conclusion. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 18:11:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
This of course promised to be a transitional RSE and that 4th FR will never have a RSE.
Actually, it was never promised that the 4E Realms wouldn't have any RSEs. Rich did say that they were going to try to focus on smaller-scale stories. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 18:28:39
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quote:
It’s a place where your character can be the most important person in the world or die in anonymity.
Didn't catch this bit before. Again, I'm a bit surprised (or perhaps not?) at the choice of words here. "The most important person in the world?" That's what very young children and egocentrists think they are. I don't think it should be treated as a desirable goal even in a D&D game--a game that's supposed to be about teamwork. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 29 Aug 2008 18:30:30 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 19:01:43
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Without getting into a point-by-point critiqué, and without going into too personal an attack (which Old Sage has so 'sagely' advised against), I have just one thing to say.
No one who loved the Realms could have done that to them. They needed to put together a team that felt, at best, indifferent. When you love something, you do not go out of your way to make it unrecognizable.
I think thats why Rich Baker's initial contributions to the new Realms appear to have 'petered out' toward the end. He was obviously a big advocate of less change, and I guess his 'help' was pushed aside by those others who had their own plan in place.
Thats just my take, but the bottom line is you do not destroy something you like... plain and simple.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Aug 2008 02:33:35 |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 19:24:37
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| Even if I agree with a majority of the changes, I think this text is an insult to the people he was aimed to (long time fans of the Realms). |
Edited by - Skeptic on 29 Aug 2008 19:25:38 |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 20:36:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
It’s a place where your character can be the most important person in the world or die in anonymity.
Didn't catch this bit before. Again, I'm a bit surprised (or perhaps not?) at the choice of words here. "The most important person in the world?" That's what very young children and egocentrists think they are. I don't think it should be treated as a desirable goal even in a D&D game--a game that's supposed to be about teamwork.
Funny you said that since 4E is a game designed for young children, and IMO the designers driving the changes to the 4E Realms are egocentrists who think they know more about what the Realms should be than their creator or the legions of lifelong fans of the setting. I still can't understand why they didn't just make a new setting. From what I have read of the 4E Realms Setting, it's not that bad in and of itself, but it is not the Realms with which I have long been obsessed. Had this been a new setting, I would actually be excited about it, rather than sick and disgusted because it is supposed to be the Realms. |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 20:44:21
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| C'mon, y'all. How hard is it to keep it civil? "A game for children?" If the bio ages are to be believed I'm one of the oldest folks posting here... |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 20:49:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
It’s a place where your character can be the most important person in the world or die in anonymity.
Didn't catch this bit before. Again, I'm a bit surprised (or perhaps not?) at the choice of words here. "The most important person in the world?" That's what very young children and egocentrists think they are. I don't think it should be treated as a desirable goal even in a D&D game--a game that's supposed to be about teamwork.
This little tidbit truly shows what the revision is about IMO: players are made to feel important by having the biggest XXXX in the country. If they cant become important in real life they can still feel important in D&D and I fully agree with you on this targeting the egocentrics of the world. It will work probably, same as cheap PvP stuff is creating a huge success for WoW / Blizzard ... compared to having to "work together in a guild to raid for good stuff". Sadly Blizzard and WotC havent understood that PvP (WoW) or the focus on minis / combat (D&D) is "just" a sports game and has nothing to do with roleplaying.
quote:
Originally posted by arry
quote:
Originally posted by scererar
. . . . there are only 3 ways to handle change in a healthy manner. tactfully disagree and work towards a Positive resolution - Accept the change and commit - or Leave.
As far as 4eFR is concerned, I'll leave.
Same for me.
quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
"A game for children?"
Isnt it true that 4e is a lot "simpler" than 3rd edition? That and the shiny new "dont make the kids read more than seven lines" design of the game material (which is obvious in the core rules AND the FR campaign material IMO) make it pretty obvious to me the primary target is the next generation of youngsters. THIS really strikes to the core IMO. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
Edited by - Pandora on 29 Aug 2008 20:58:16 |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 20:58:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
This little tidbit truly shows what the revision is about IMO: players are made to feel important by having the biggest XXXX in the country. If they cant become important in real life they can still feel important in D&D and I fully agree with you on this targeting the egocentrics of the world.
Past editions of D&D may have enforced the idea that to roleplay you need to play some miserable young wanna-be adventurers strugling to get enough food to survive the day, but that is not something universal.
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Edited by - Skeptic on 29 Aug 2008 21:00:52 |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 21:02:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
This little tidbit truly shows what the revision is about IMO: players are made to feel important by having the biggest XXXX in the country. If they cant become important in real life they can still feel important in D&D and I fully agree with you on this targeting the egocentrics of the world.
Past editions of D&D may have enforced the idea that to roleplay you need to play some miserable young wanna-be adventurers strugling to get enough food to survive the day, but that is not something universal.
Playing the only hero is? And no hero ever started small? Even Hercules had to prove himself with difficult tasks to be accepted into the Olymp and then he wasnt "the boss". The new Forgotten Realms almost removes the need to roleplay because there are hardly any NPCs left with whom to do that ... apart from some farmers and hunters who dont really matter and will prolly say "yes" to everything the PCs ask, eh? Everything else is monster infested wilderness. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 21:08:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
Isnt it true that 4e is a lot "simpler" than 3rd edition? That and the shiny new "dont make the kids read more than seven lines" design of the game material (which is obvious in the core rules AND the FR campaign material IMO) make it pretty obvious to me the primary target is the next generation of youngsters. THIS really strikes to the core IMO.
I can't say for sure whether it's simpler, as I never played 3E. But it's certainly true that my perception is that it's simpler--that's the reason I waited for 4E to come out before picking up the game again.
The millennials are pretty smart bunch of folks, in my experience.
And hey, I like Sesame Street!  Especially this. |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 21:14:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
Playing the only hero is? And no hero ever started small? Even Hercules had to prove himself with difficult tasks to be accepted into the Olymp and then he wasnt "the boss". The new Forgotten Realms almost removes the need to roleplay because there are hardly any NPCs left with whom to do that ... apart from some farmers and hunters who dont really matter and will prolly say "yes" to everything the PCs ask, eh? Everything else is monster infested wilderness.
If by roleplay you mean PCs being bullied by Dumbledore/Voldomort kind of NPCs, I'm glad of it.
Saying that FR was emptied of NPCs is simply false, I won't respond to it.
I'm not saying that starting small is "evil", it certainly can be fun, but that's not the only kind of play experience that RPG can offer.
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Edited by - Skeptic on 29 Aug 2008 21:14:35 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 23:39:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
This little tidbit truly shows what the revision is about IMO: players are made to feel important by having the biggest XXXX in the country. If they cant become important in real life they can still feel important in D&D and I fully agree with you on this targeting the egocentrics of the world.
Past editions of D&D may have enforced the idea that to roleplay you need to play some miserable young wanna-be adventurers strugling to get enough food to survive the day, but that is not something universal.
That's a false dichotomy, because there is a wide gap between being "the most important person in the world" and "a miserable wanna-be adventurer struggling for food". |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 23:42:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
I can't say for sure whether it's simpler, as I never played 3E. But it's certainly true that my perception is that it's simpler--that's the reason I waited for 4E to come out before picking up the game again.
I think 4E is "simpler" but not in a bad way--it's more streamlined than 3E. I don't care how 3E has a number attached to every possible attribute.
By the way, I still thought that Sesame Street pic was funny. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 29 Aug 2008 23:43:06 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 23:44:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
If by roleplay you mean PCs being bullied by Dumbledore/Voldomort kind of NPCs, I'm glad of it.
You honestly think that's what he meant? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2008 : 00:00:23
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So here are the public design notes for the new Realms, though not the team's only design principles, or even the only ones they've mentioned. With rare books-team insight from Phil Athans, who supported the timeline jump (I'm not surprised, given how little affinity his own Realms writing shows for the setting).
I'll limit myself to stating the obvious.
1. It’s exactly what it says it is: a world of ancient realms to explore and discover.
A centimeter on a 1":30 mile map is 140 square miles: perhaps not much in the USA, but it's a lot of land in England, where I live, and in the Realms. How does 'getting harder and harder to find room to tell a story' square with the next point? Can there only be one story ever in one place? If this is even coherent, I'm not grasping it. 'even the Dalelands had some surprises in store'? Like its basic society and governments, never detailed in print? Lost Dales not even named? Or its mentioned but never detailed pre-elven ruins?
When Bruce says 'No one could be intimately familiar with the previous century’s happenings', I don't know whether or not he understands that not a thousandth of any year's happenings has seen print and is rhetorically overstating. This hyperbole isn't helpful or necessary: the underlying points that sales of setting lore reach diminishing returns, and that people enjoy novelty, stand without it.
2. It’s a thousand stories, all happening at once.
Ah, Bruce was one of the original proponents of the Spellplague. His claim that 'the opportunity for less powerful PCs and less epic stories was small' is laughably, diametrically false. Hundreds of such stories have been alluded to and will now not be told. As for 'NPC good guys exist all over the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting, but few of them should be as capable as the PCs': that isn't what 'should' means (or 'having to' under point 1), and the implication that you know better than Ed Greenwood how to design a fantasy society is inane.
3. It’s a place where your character can be the most important person in the world or die in anonymity.
The characters who want to be the most important people in Faerûn are Manshoon and Larloch and Priamon "Frostrune." I think that says it all (conflating 'most important in your campaign' and 'most important in the world' is a solipsistic category error). Phil says 'a notion emerged' but doesn't mention that it was his focusing on Ed's non-protagonist characters that helped to foster it.
No version of the Realms has not delivered 'bad guys in droves'. Exactly the same was said in 2001.
4. It’s a fully realized world, full of history and legend.
No quarrel with this ideal, but it's not much evident in the FRCG previews, which mostly read like what they are -- stuff the authors recently made up -- rather than the surface of a deep, massive underlying place.
By the exact high standards set by the Realms, you cannot publish a fully realized world in two books.
5. It’s a vibrant, ever-changing world that is constantly moving forward.
At last we hear outright that the RSEs tend to sell more, though of course we'll never know how much it was due to their getting the lion's share of promotion outside Drizzt. No, Bruce, everyone does not give a damn about the ongoing timeline, and it isn't the only way to avoid stagnation. Imagine how much sustained brutal mismanagement of a world I love it took to render me, by degrees, completely indifferent to things like what the Aboleth Sovereignty is up to.
6. It’s core D&D “plus.”
That was the dictate of the business plan. By replacing many of the Realms' own intricate, subtle norms, Wizards has moved further than ever from just letting the Realms be itself. I think it's an artistic crime to do that to a magnificent creative vision like Ed's.
7. It’s contemporary fantasy.
That is, it's reactive and faddish rather than true to its own aesthetics, which means it will date quickly. Phil mentions the original Realms' '1980s roots' (no, it was already 20 years old then), yet it's remarkable how timeless Ed's work now looks. Compare the idea of making Middle-earth 'look like a 21st century fantasy property': it's a matter for satire.
8. It’s 50% all new.
That is, they had a quota of land to remove and replace. Abeir was 'conceived by Ed Greenwood’s bountiful pen' at your direction. Making this sound like Ed thought it was a good idea is an act of deception.
9. We’re not retconning. We’re assuming that everything that was, was.
Well, they failed to meet this goal, since the changes have included a number of observed and admitted retcons. |
Edited by - Faraer on 30 Aug 2008 07:14:20 |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2008 : 01:51:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
By the way, I still thought that Sesame Street pic was funny.
It was pretty funny. But no way it's as cool as Kermit singing with Ladysmith Black Mambazo! |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
Edited by - Christopher_Rowe on 30 Aug 2008 01:52:22 |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2008 : 01:55:37
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quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
quote:
Originally posted by scererar
Also 2E had a revision which also had revised core rules, prior to 3E coming out. I think informally many of us called it 2.5.
It did? are you talking about the player options books? if so they were options, not core rules and did not impact on game materials printed after they came out unlike 3.5 which did become the core rules and anything printed after them did include the new rules.
Not trying to be picky here with you.
Cheers
Damian
They did indeed have revised core rule books in 2E. this is also around the same time that the power options started. And no worries about being picky
link to the 2.5 DM guide
link to 2.5 players handbook
Mod edit: Honkin' big links rendered not so big or honkin'.  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 30 Aug 2008 03:54:41 |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2008 : 01:56:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
By the exact high standards set by the Realms, you cannot publish a fully realized world in two books.
How many would it take, then? |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2008 : 02:14:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
How many would it take, then?
I would say a minimum of a book per a continent. Of course, since in 4e they are ignoring the continents that they never bothered to allow Ed to develop (much more logical places to determine as the origins of the various 4e things that did not have a home in the Realms yet than porting things over from a Abeir that they created out of nothing for this purpose). |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2008 : 02:18:49
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
How many would it take, then?
I would say a minimum of a book per a continent.
So, in the history of the published Realms to date, it's never been a fully realized world? And now never will be or can be?
I personally had quite an immersive experience with just the gray box, the Bloodstone modules, and the first few Douglas Niles novels back in the day. |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2008 : 02:25:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
So, in the history of the published Realms to date, it's never been a fully realized world? And now never will be or can be?
Just so. By design, Ed's Realms is never fully realized but in a state of constant development and flux: from necessity, to keep it interesting for him, and to keep players from complacency. He would admit (quite likely has) that the Castlemourn Campaign Setting, about the size of the FRCG, only begins to explore that world.
Realms-2008 may be fully realized by its own, smaller standards (see, for instance, Rich Baker's comments implying that elements above those needed to sustain a single campaign are 'redundant'), or 'fully' may be promospeak for 'adequately'.quote:
I personally had quite an immersive experience with just the gray box, the Bloodstone modules, and the first few Douglas Niles novels back in the day.
Sure. You don't need a 'fully realized world' to play in, but it sounds good. |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2008 : 02:30:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
So, in the history of the published Realms to date, it's never been a fully realized world? And now never will be or can be?
Just so. By design, Ed's Realms is never fully realized but in a state of constant development and flux: from necessity, to keep it interesting for him, and to keep players from complacency. He would admit (quite likely has) that the Castlemourn Campaign Setting, about the size of the FRCG, only begins to explore that world.
Realms-2008 may be fully realized by its own, smaller standards (see, for instance, Rich Baker's comments implying that elements above those needed to sustain a single campaign are 'redundant'), or 'fully' may be promospeak for 'adequately'.quote:
I personally had quite an immersive experience with just the gray box, the Bloodstone modules, and the first few Douglas Niles novels back in the day.
Sure. You don't need a 'fully realized world' to play in, but it sounds good.
We need some of those "thumbs up" smilies! Nice post.
--Christopher |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2008 : 02:37:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
So, in the history of the published Realms to date, it's never been a fully realized world? And now never will be or can be?
This map (taken from the 3e FRCS) shows many landmasses are labeled as "Unknown Lands." Most of them have names now (Katashaka, Anachrome, and Osse), but Ed has mentioned that he has had plans (often changed by updated lore) for each of them. However, Rich made it apparent that the current Realms design team has no intention of detailing them (and from what I have seen, I am not even sure if Anachrome [the continent North of Maztica] even exists anymore) and instead is going to focus on Faerun and Abeir (have they explained anywhere why the sister world of Toril is the name of the single continent that was fully swapped with Maztica?). I cannot see why it was more logical to create a mythical "Abeir" to introduce the various new elements of 4e into the Realms instead of one of these "Unknown Lands." |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2008 : 03:06:12
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
quote:
Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
So, in the history of the published Realms to date, it's never been a fully realized world? And now never will be or can be?
This map (taken from the 3e FRCS) shows many landmasses are labeled as "Unknown Lands." Most of them have names now (Katashaka, Anachrome, and Osse), but Ed has mentioned that he has had plans (often changed by updated lore) for each of them. However, Rich made it apparent that the current Realms design team has no intention of detailing them (and from what I have seen, I am not even sure if Anachrome [the continent North of Maztica] even exists anymore) and instead is going to focus on Faerun and Abeir (have they explained anywhere why the sister world of Toril is the name of the single continent that was fully swapped with Maztica?). I cannot see why it was more logical to create a mythical "Abeir" to introduce the various new elements of 4e into the Realms instead of one of these "Unknown Lands."
Thanks for the map link. I'm fascinated with cartography (see most recent World Fantasy Awards* short fiction list  ), and describing a map as "a scholar's view" of something has wonderful resonances.
Oh, and I believe that other sections of the world are known to be pieces of "Returned Abeir." My reading is not necessarily that those in Faerûn who know much about the continent across the sea call it "Returned Abeir" to the exclusion of or in substitution for their knowledge that, say, Akanûl, was also part of Abeir (though they might, I suppose).
I think the naming convention is a sort of shorthand--like calling the US "America," when technically America can be fairly said to apply to everything from the Arctic Circle to Tierra del Fuego.
Cheers,
Christopher
* One of the judges was Ed Greenwood! And since I didn't win, it's entirely possible that my work was judged and found wanting by Ed! Look at me, handing out ammo to the folks who disagree with me! |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Design and Development The 4E Forgotten Realms.
