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Brimstone
Great Reader
    
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 00:41:01
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http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20080828a
quote: This month’s Design & Development column is brought to you by Senior Managing Editor Phil Athans and Designer Bruce Cordell.
Starting Points in the New Edition Philip Athans: Discussions about a new edition of the FORGOTTEN REALMS world began in the late spring of 2005. As the FORGOTTEN REALMS novel line editor, I was pulled into the discussions early. I’m not quite sure when the idea of jumping the timeline forward was first proposed, or even who first proposed it, but after spending a couple weeks mulling it over, I was an early and enthusiastic supporter of the idea.
Bruce Cordell: At first glance, the century leap forward is the most shocking part of the new FORGOTTEN REALMS setting. It is a jaw-dropping change. But it wasn’t a decision made lightly. In fact, it was felt something drastic had to happen in order to breathe new life into a shared world whose well-trampled edges were quickly approaching. Many believed that if something bold wasn’t done to expand the canvas, the world would begin to die beneath its own extensive history of novels and game products.
How do you do something like that without reinventing the entire world?
A two-fold plan emerged: A great leap into the future would allow nearly every part of Faerûn to appear fresh to everyone, both new fans and old. No one could be intimately familiar with the previous century’s happenings. Every place would have some element of novelty simply because a century can’t pass without even the most stable of kingdoms seeing some shift or alteration.
The other part of the plan involved literally bringing completely “new” lands into the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting. With Ed Greenwood’s help, the real forgotten realm of Abeir returned to Toril, in the midst of a cataclysm of unleashed wild magic.
PA: By the end of June, Bruce Cordell, Richard Baker, and I were assembled as the FORGOTTEN REALMS revision team. That summer we participated in a series of long meetings in which we hammered out the FORGOTTEN REALMS 4th edition “Revision Guide,” a document that would later morph, with the help of a lot more people, into the 4th Edition FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Guide.
BRC: They were long meetings followed by long writing sessions to create drafts of what we’d just discussed, followed by more meetings. We talked about every realm, great and small, including the cosmology. Indeed, the cosmology we settled on as one that would work best for FORGOTTEN REALMS was the cosmology that the D&D core rules itself accepted—excluding the particular deities, of course.
PA: Before we got into the specifics of what the new edition of FORGOTTEN REALMS would look like, we wanted to be sure we had a clear shared understanding of what the FORGOTTEN REALMS was then, and what we all wanted it to be like. We worked together, and with a number of key people both inside and outside of Wizards of the Coast, we organized our principles for the new edition around nine core ideals.
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FORGOTTEN REALMS Core Ideals What is this world? What is it all about? Where should we be taking it?
1. It’s exactly what it says it is: a world of ancient realms to explore and discover.
PA: By the summer of 2005, there wasn’t a whole lot left of Faerûn to discover. We’d spent the last fifteen years or so detailing just about every nook and cranny of the map, in hundreds of books, game products, short stories, comic books, Dragon articles, and Dungeon adventures. There was hardly a square centimeter on the poster map that wasn’t detailed somewhere, and frankly it was getting harder and harder to find room to tell a story. Authors, game designers, and DMs alike were being pushed farther and farther off to the edges. We knew we needed new places to discover, and the ability to refresh the core FORGOTTEN REALMS so that even the Dalelands had some surprises in store.
BRC: Even my own first steps in novel fiction showed me how the novels and games were having to move to obscure spots to tell new stories. Darkvision takes place largely in Durpar, a country hardly even on the map. Stardeep was hidden away in a hardly visited eladrin realm behind the Yuirwood forest in Aglarond. Other folks were finding themselves similarly squeezed to the edges—even long-time writers in the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting. It was a trend the editors noted first. What do you do when all the ancient realms have already been explored and discovered?
Aside from jumping the timeline enough to be significant and splicing lost worlds back into the core setting, one thing we could do is to change how the very rules of D&D work. That opportunity was serendipitous, and it was a fantastic chance for us to see all of the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting through a completely new lens.
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2. It’s a thousand stories, all happening at once.
PA: From the novel line point of view, the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting has always succeeded because there is no core story. It isn’t a world where if you weren’t a member of, say, the Fellowship of the Ring, all you were really doing was watching the real heroes. The world has to have room for a 4th level D&D character, or the apprentice mage from the next novel, to save, if not the world, then his or her little part of it and not feel unimportant or left out.
BRC: In a world where Elminster is merely the tip of an epic level legion of NPC good guys, the opportunity for less powerful PCs and less epic stories was small. Certainly, NPC good guys exist all over the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting, but few of them should be as capable as the PCs. Because of the very nature of the player characters, they are special, a cut above other folks and even potentially touched by fate to one day take up an epic destiny.
PA: Even as we discussed the various agents of change that would help us introduce new elements for the D&D game into the setting, we knew that just like there shouldn’t be one set of heroes, there shouldn’t be one single agent of change. Though the Spellplague has had a huge impact on the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting, it’s not the only thing that’s happened in the hundred years between editions. It’s not the only explanation for why things work or look different.
BRC: Speaking of the Spellplague, even though I was one of its original proponents, I feel like the concept got far too much promotion, both prior to the release of the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Guide, and in the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Guide itself. At the time where this 4th Edition of the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting is set, over ninety years have passed since the Spellplague. Most folks in Faerûn don’t give the Year of Blue Fire a second thought or wonder how strange it was that there used to be a goddess of magic. Yes, it was a cataclysmic event in its day, but that day is long past. Many other factors are responsible for changes to the landscape and cosmology—so many that the Spellplague is mostly a memory (except for those places where pockets yet linger).
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3. It’s a place where your character can be the most important person in the world or die in anonymity.
PA: This was a message that should have been getting out all along, but somewhere along the way—was it the Time of Troubles?—a notion emerged among the readers and players that the FORGOTTEN REALMS was a world built for a small group of superheroes and a place to read about their adventures. It didn’t have room for more heroes. Wow, did we have to make sure people knew that wasn’t the case, and back that up with a world that put a greater emphasis on villains and that asked you to be the hero.
BRC: The new FORGOTTEN REALMS setting delivers bad guys in droves: the Shadovar and Thay, of course, but also strange threats out of Abeir, including not only dragon-ruled nations, but even realms recently ruled by primordials! And there’s that floating city of ancient creatures that hovers in a perpetual storm over the Sea of Fallen Stars. Just what is the Aboleth Sovereignty up to?
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4. It’s a fully realized world, full of history and legend.
PA: I think the best example of this is one we used in various presentations in the past. Core D&D will give you the rules for a +1 longsword, but in the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting that +1 longsword is the Platinum Tongue of Garthak, fashioned as the parade sword for Garthak Hammerfist, patriarch of the dwarven clan of Hammerfist, one of the ruling houses of ancient Gauntlgrym. Everything in the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting has a story.
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5. It’s a vibrant, ever-changing world that is constantly moving forward.
PA: For years we’ve been closely watching sales trends of the novels and seeing that, without exception, books that move the world forward, however incrementally, tend to outsell books that go back into the past or that have less or no effect on the greater setting. What we call “Realms-shaking events,” like Troy Denning’s Return of the Archwizards series or Mel Odom’s The Threat from the Sea series, had become the rocky center of the FORGOTTEN REALMS novel line. As we talked about resetting the FORGOTTEN REALMS world, we knew that what we were really doing was establishing a new starting point, and that the world would evolve and grow from there.
BRC: The Realms-shaking events that drive sales for the novels are a dichotomy and ongoing tension in the game. From the point of view of game setting design, it’s hard to write a definitive “Guide to the FORGOTTEN REALMS” when you know that a year down the line, three different novel lines will have killed off, altered, or in some other way changed basic features described in that putative “guide.”
But as Phil notes, moving forward is fun. Not moving the game world side of things forward with the novels would mean stagnation for the game setting. Everyone wants to feel they are part of the same dynamic world described in The Orc King, Shadowrealm, or Swordmage.
PA: We made sure that at least some of the transition stories were told in novel trilogies. In these novels, the fans can see in detail the development of new or the destruction of old realms (like the establishment of the Kingdom of Many-Arrows or the fall of the city of Luskan in R.A. Salvatore’s Transitions series), changes in the pantheon (as in Lisa Smedman’s The Lady Penitent series and R.A. Salvatore’s The Ghost King), shifts in the halls of power (Paul S. Kemp’s The Twilight War series), or the reordering of the cosmos itself (in Thomas M. Reid’s The Empyrean Odyssey series).
BRC: Phil has nicely set me up to either ignore a chance to plug myself or dive in. I’m diving in: The Abolethic Sovereignty trilogy explores how the city of Xxiphu came to be stationed over Faerûn and what its presence portends, if strict vigil over its beslimed residents is not kept.
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6. It’s core D&D “plus.”
PA: We started out with the absolute conviction that the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Guide would render no part of the core D&D rulebooks obsolete and vice versa. Every D&D race, class, monster, and magic item has its place in the FORGOTTEN REALMS world, and we’ll give you more, like the swordmage and the genasi. No matter what, the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting is a Dungoens & Dragons world.
BRC: Indeed, core D&D and the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting have never been closer. A DM can pick up the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Guide and use one or two of its nicely contained regions in his own game if he wishes. I think a lot of D&D campaigns will find themselves with genasi PCs, swordmages, and perhaps even spellscarred PCs touched by the fire of wild magic—even those campaigns that do not take place on Toril.
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7. It’s contemporary fantasy.
PA: Though 3rd Edition D&D went a long way in updating the look and feel of the FORGOTTEN REALMS world, we knew we still had a long way to go before it felt truly contemporary. This core ideal informed pervasively. How do we preserve the spirit of the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting, while making it look like a 21st century fantasy property—one that would appeal to a contemporary audience? I think the art, the political and philosophical ambiguity, and the sheer scope of the revised setting shows you just how far the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting has come from its 1980s roots.
BRC: Here’s one example. The great and ever-increasing popularity of eastern fighting styles and eastern myths sees a similarly increased profile in the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting. Shou from down the Golden Way have continued to settle in Faerûn, and they have claimed a nation all their own west of the Sea of Fallen Stars that they have named Nathlan. Extraordinary feats of martial proficiency abound in these regions. When the day comes that the monk and related character classes sees the light of day in a future Player’s Handbook, you can expect Nathlan, Telflamm, portions of Westgate, and other places similarly Shou-settled to catch fire with possibility.
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8. It’s 50% all new.
PA: Okay, don’t hold us to that 50% figure exactly. I’m not sure there’s even a way to measure what percentage of it is new, but that’s the core ideal we started with. We knew we wanted big parts of the map to be marked, for all intents and purposes: “Here Be Dragons.” This goes back to the first point: If the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting is a place for your characters to explore, there better be some stuff you haven’t seen before!
BRC: Apparently I’m example boy on this article. Well, here’s another: Returned Abeir—an entire content flush with new wonder and conceived by Ed Greenwood’s bountiful pen, no less. Other portions of Abeir fell into Toril, too, but they are now part of Faerûn: the dragonborn land of Tymanther and the genasi-ruled badlands of Akanûl.
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9. We’re not retconning. We’re assuming that everything that was, was.
PA: I guess you could call this the “not throwing out the baby or the bathwater” rule. If it happened in a novel or in a game product—any part of the FORGOTTEN REALMS canon—it happened. We aren’t going to ask you to buy a copy of The Grand History of the Realms then throw it away. Every detail ever published on this massive setting is still there, is still a part of the history of this living, breathing world. We may have a hundred years’ worth of distance from it, but it happened, and all that history will continue to inform authors, game designers, players, and DMs as they continue to explore the FORGOTTEN REALMS world.
BRC: You know, there might be a couple niggling little details that the 4th Edition rules insist upon that we may just ignore. For instance, I doubt you’ll see a three-novel epic on how halflings grew, on average, an extra foot.
But barring strange little bits like that, if a story has been told about something to establish it in the previous setting edition, then another story describes how that feature reached its current manifestation in the 4th Edition FORGOTTEN REALMS setting—even if we haven’t yet told you that story. It’s a wide world filled new opportunity. I can’t wait for my Elfharrow elf barbarian character to go on his next adventure. When’s that going to be, Phil?
PA: The week after we get back from Gen Con Indy!
BRIMSTONE 
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"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding." Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
    
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 01:02:12
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| Hmmmmm....3 years of work on 4e. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
    
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 01:09:56
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quote: Originally posted by The Red Walker
Hmmmmm....3 years of work on 4e.
Well, remember, they announced they'd been working on 4E for two years one year ago. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams." --Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 29 Aug 2008 01:10:12 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
    
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 01:12:00
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quote: Many believed that if something bold wasn’t done to expand the canvas, the world would begin to die beneath its own extensive history of novels and game products.
Who is "many"? That statement is rather weasel-worded, as it is so vague that the reverse could just as easily be true.
quote:
Authors, game designers, and DMs alike were being pushed farther and farther off to the edges. We knew we needed new places to discover, and the ability to refresh the core FORGOTTEN REALMS so that even the Dalelands had some surprises in store.
BRC: Even my own first steps in novel fiction showed me how the novels and games were having to move to obscure spots to tell new stories. Darkvision takes place largely in Durpar, a country hardly even on the map. Stardeep was hidden away in a hardly visited eladrin realm behind the Yuirwood forest in Aglarond. Other folks were finding themselves similarly squeezed to the edges—even long-time writers in the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting.
Were authors being "pushed to the edges", or did WotC just want them to explore new places in the Realms? I had thought BC wrote about the Star Elves, Imaskari, and the Great Dale area because he liked them had a hand in creating/developing them, not because he thought he couldn't tell a good story in places that were less obscure. I don't mean to come off as disrespectful, but I'm just not buying this particular description of what happened.
quote: Aside from jumping the timeline enough to be significant and splicing lost worlds back into the core setting, one thing we could do is to change how the very rules of D&D work. That opportunity was serendipitous, and it was a fantastic chance for us to see all of the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting through a completely new lens.
Serendipity? A fortunate discovery by accident? Sorry, but I don't see anything accidental or coincidental about all this. That's not good or bad, that's just how it is.
quote: In a world where Elminster is merely the tip of an epic level legion of NPC good guys...
Quite an over-the-top description.
quote: ...the opportunity for less powerful PCs and less epic stories was small.
Why? WotC chose to focus on RSEs and high level characters, didn't they? It strikes me as disingenuous to imply that they had no control over this.
quote: Speaking of the Spellplague, even though I was one of its original proponents, I feel like the concept got far too much promotion, both prior to the release of the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Guide, and in the FORGOTTEN REALMS Campaign Guide itself.
Didn't he have a large hand in writing that book, though?
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams." --Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 29 Aug 2008 01:41:15 |
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monknwildcat
Learned Scribe
 
USA
285 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 01:15:05
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Thanks, Brimstone! 
I'm curious why Baker didn't contribute to the web article. Design duo or design team?  |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
    
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 01:32:31
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I find it funny that the keep on saying that they are not retconning, but the whole Abeir-thing is a retcon. The original purpose of appending Abeir to the beginning of Toril was so that it would have an early entry in the Forgotten Realms Cyclopedia (IIRC). Now they have retconned it into the birthplace of everything 4e that was not already in the Realms. If that is not a retcon, I don't know what is. And I still do not understand why they had to scar the face of Faerun instead of detailing the other landmasses on Toril like Ed originally wanted to.  |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
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"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer) * Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules) * The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules) * 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work: * Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing) * Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing) * Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing) * Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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monknwildcat
Learned Scribe
 
USA
285 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 01:37:45
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I question the attempt at plausible deniability. If the 100 year jump is the best thing for the FR since Elminster, which of the design duo suggested it...?
I never thought I'd see such a FR design team sans Greenwood while he's alive.  |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
    
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 01:46:26
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quote: Originally posted by monknwildcat
Thanks, Brimstone! 
I'm curious why Baker didn't contribute to the web article. Design duo or design team? 
-Rich did mention in his thread at WotC that he fought battles for the Realms that we would never know about. Then he goes and bears the brunt of the flaming and insults thrown at him by the fans. (Yes I am guilty of it too) Plus Rich is on vacation right now and he is only writing books set in the Realms and DDI Articles IIRC. So as I have been saying this is what we get when the setting is in the hands of new game designers. If the old TSR crew was still around I doubt that this would be happening IMO. Yet life moves on and things change for the better or the worse. Time will tell the truth.
BRIMSTONE  |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding." Alaundo of Candlekeep |
Edited by - Brimstone on 29 Aug 2008 01:47:39 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
    
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 01:49:29
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quote: Originally posted by Brimstone If the old TSR crew was still around I doubt that this would be happening IMO.
Well, I think we need to be fair--some dodgy stuff happened to the Realms during the TSR era, didn't it? |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams." --Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
    
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 01:53:09
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quote: Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote: Originally posted by Brimstone If the old TSR crew was still around I doubt that this would be happening IMO.
Well, I think we need to be fair--some dodgy stuff happened to the Realms during the TSR era, didn't it?
-True, yet that was the Golden Age of the Realms to me. 
BRIMSTONE  |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding." Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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RodOdom
Senior Scribe
  
USA
509 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 01:53:38
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| I am so angry. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
    
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 01:55:07
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quote: Originally posted by Brimstone
quote: Originally posted by monknwildcat
Thanks, Brimstone! 
I'm curious why Baker didn't contribute to the web article. Design duo or design team? 
-Rich did mention in his thread at WotC that he fought battles for the Realms that we would never know about. Then he goes and bears the brunt of the flaming and insults thrown at him by the fans. (Yes I am guilty of it too) Plus Rich is on vacation right now and he is only writing books set in the Realms and DDI Articles IIRC. So as I have been saying this is what we get when the setting is in the hands of new game designers. If the old TSR crew was still around I doubt that this would be happening IMO. Yet life moves on and things change for the better or the worse. Time will tell the truth.
BRIMSTONE 
Yes after meeting Rich at GenCon I hae no problem believing that he fought the good fight simularly to How Ed did with 4e. Rich, in my opinion is a stand up guy who loves the Realms and with a all the flak he took may well have just kept fairly quiet and "took one for the team". |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Kentinal
Great Reader
    
4702 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 02:02:55
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In one way it is a retcom because Abeir never existed except as a name, however it is not a retcon in saying the Toril history is not changed.
reycons are like reintroducing 10th and higher level spells (after they were banned)that do the same thing (just called a different magic), changing the maps and say that is the way the maps always were, changing the history, origins or stats of a race/region/class/etc.
What they decided to do is provide one big RSE and 100 years for history and most to die so that few will know the history of the Realms. This of course promised to be a transitional RSE and that 4th FR will never have a RSE. Never is a longtime, perhaps the promise will be kept. There afterall are a few places that did not take much damage a century ago. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards." "Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding. "After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first." "Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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monknwildcat
Learned Scribe
 
USA
285 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 02:04:34
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Brimstone: I have serious questions about Rich's novels and short story, but I don't know enough about his specific 3E design work in FR to critique it. I wish him a fantastic vacation, though!
Hawkins: IMO, they're arguing that they didn't retcon because they expanded the lore by acknowledging Abeir. Functionally it's an über-retcon, and they're splitting hairs. But that doesn't explain every deific realignment introduced.
RF: I'm old enough to have followed the TSR FR, but I wasn't into the setting then. But I really valued the 3E team's work. Are any of them besides Greenwood still with WotC?  |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
    
USA
3254 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 04:04:33
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quote: Originally posted by Brimstone --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
9. We’re not retconning. We’re assuming that everything that was, was.
PA: I guess you could call this the “not throwing out the baby or the bathwater” rule. If it happened in a novel or in a game product—any part of the FORGOTTEN REALMS canon—it happened. We aren’t going to ask you to buy a copy of The Grand History of the Realms then throw it away. Every detail ever published on this massive setting is still there, is still a part of the history of this living, breathing world. We may have a hundred years’ worth of distance from it, but it happened, and all that history will continue to inform authors, game designers, players, and DMs as they continue to explore the FORGOTTEN REALMS world.
BRC: You know, there might be a couple niggling little details that the 4th Edition rules insist upon that we may just ignore. For instance, I doubt you’ll see a three-novel epic on how halflings grew, on average, an extra foot.
But barring strange little bits like that, if a story has been told about something to establish it in the previous setting edition, then another story describes how that feature reached its current manifestation in the 4th Edition FORGOTTEN REALMS setting—even if we haven’t yet told you that story. It’s a wide world filled new opportunity. I can’t wait for my Elfharrow elf barbarian character to go on his next adventure. When’s that going to be, Phil?
PA: The week after we get back from Gen Con Indy!
Gold Dwarves, Shield Dwarves, Gray Dwarves.
Wild Elves, Wood Elves, Sun Elves, Moon Elves.
Ghostwise Halflings, Strongheart Halflings, Lightfoot Halflings.
If subraces disappear, how is it NOT a retcon? |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 29 Aug 2008 04:05:30 |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
  
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 04:20:03
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quote: Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Gold Dwarves, Shield Dwarves, Gray Dwarves.
Wild Elves, Wood Elves, Sun Elves, Moon Elves.
Ghostwise Halflings, Strongheart Halflings, Lightfoot Halflings.
If subraces disappear, how is it NOT a retcon?
Why do you think that subraces have disappeared? There's a ghostwise halfling in Swordmage, and we haven't seen the race stuff from the Player's Guide yet, have we? |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
  
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 04:29:47
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| Meaningless drivel from meaningless men, who stand in sight of greatness and tear it down so their own immense shortcomings can't be seen. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
    
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 04:33:04
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-Nice lets tear people down now. 
BRIMSTONE  |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding." Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
   
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 04:38:19
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that was constructive
they are talking about their reasons for change. I respect them for that, I don't agree with all of the reasons, but I respect them for talking to us. They don't really owe us anything. buy it or not. I think the extreme spectrums of for or against the newest edition is nuts. provide opinions but do we really need non constructive banter? I see a lot of WOTC board nonsense filtering over here lately, as a few other scribes have posted as well. breaking things down to personal attacks against another human beings is crazy. |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
  
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 04:39:52
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quote: Originally posted by Uzzy
Meaningless drivel from meaningless men, who stand in sight of greatness and tear it down so their own immense shortcomings can't be seen.
Puts me in mind of the words of one of our moderators:
quote: Originally posted by The Sage
I know some of you have long been disgruntled with certain published details about the 4e Realms. But, really, a few of the words some scribes have been ocassionally using to describe WotC/designers over recent months are quite unnecessary.
Remember, Candlekeep is the place for FRIENDLY Realms chatter about ALL editions of the game. Let's try to keep things civil, polite and, most importantly of all, fun.
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My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
    
USA
3254 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 04:42:30
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quote: Originally posted by Christopher_Rowe
quote: Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Gold Dwarves, Shield Dwarves, Gray Dwarves.
Wild Elves, Wood Elves, Sun Elves, Moon Elves.
Ghostwise Halflings, Strongheart Halflings, Lightfoot Halflings.
If subraces disappear, how is it NOT a retcon?
Why do you think that subraces have disappeared? There's a ghostwise halfling in Swordmage, and we haven't seen the race stuff from the Player's Guide yet, have we?
Sorry, I'm assuming that the dwarven and halfling subraces are going to disappear since my interpretation is that Sun/Moon elves are eladrin and the rest are elves from the Campaign Guide.
I hope to be proven wrong when the player's guide comes out, but with the track record of the last few months, I don't have high hopes. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 29 Aug 2008 04:44:36 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
    
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 04:46:09
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-The races will be feats in the 4E FRPG. Genasi feats, halfling feats. I don't know if I like all of that. Yet I will give it a look.
BRIMSTONE  |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding." Alaundo of Candlekeep |
Edited by - Brimstone on 29 Aug 2008 05:08:21 |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
  
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 04:52:47
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quote: they are talking about their reasons for change. I respect them for that, I don't agree with all of the reasons, but I respect them for talking to us. They don't really owe us anything. buy it or not.
You must be the perfect customer, me thinks. For myself, as a customer, when things I enjoy change as drastically as the Realms has done, I would expect some sort of explanation for these changes. Especially considering how much money I've given WoTC.
This drivel from Bruce Cordell and Phil Athans is just that. Drivel. Illogical, absurd and fundamentally incorrect arguments. Even better, they decry as wrong the very things they've spent the last 8 years doing. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
    
4702 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 05:03:15
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quote: Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
If subraces disappear, how is it NOT a retcon?
If they do disappear it could be the plauge killed them off, Realms history is not changed - There used to be a Temple to Eilistraee here (for example).
retcon is something that changes history, as time moves forward events and ruling races can change. After all Dragons no longer are the controling race like they were thousands of years ago, the Gaints had their rule as well, etc.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards." "Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding. "After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first." "Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
   
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 05:10:32
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quote: Originally posted by Uzzy
quote: they are talking about their reasons for change. I respect them for that, I don't agree with all of the reasons, but I respect them for talking to us. They don't really owe us anything. buy it or not.
You must be the perfect customer, me thinks. For myself, as a customer, when things I enjoy change as drastically as the Realms has done, I would expect some sort of explanation for these changes. Especially considering how much money I've given WoTC.
This drivel from Bruce Cordell and Phil Athans is just that. Drivel. Illogical, absurd and fundamentally incorrect arguments. Even better, they decry as wrong the very things they've spent the last 8 years doing.
far from a perfect customer actually, and see... constructive conversation I am just as upset about some of the changes that have taken place. I have loved the realms for 21 years, but also know that change is a constant. I have much of the 2E material, almost all of the 3E and I will use what I choose from the 4E pieces, as I see fit to match the world I have envisioned for so long. I will even have the Spellplague in my realms, but I do not expect everyone else to do so, the same as the change before with the ToT.
I agree. many of the words used to explain things don't all make sense, but it is what we have. I read a book recently called absolute honesty. I don't have the book in front of me, but I recall one of the items talked about was PAL. This stuck with me as a manager in the RW. The Author indicated to the effect of: there are only 3 ways to handle change in a healthy manner. tactfully disagree and work towards a Positive resolution - Accept the change and commit - or Leave.
anyway, I fully respect your constructive opinions and this is just my 2 coppers worth |
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RodOdom
Senior Scribe
  
USA
509 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 05:19:23
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| I'm not going to buy anything from WotC ever again. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
    
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 06:01:25
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Fellow scribes, I'm seeing quite a lot of unnecssary criticism of designers in general in this scroll. While I appreciate some of you may have your issues with a number of their decisions, please remember that they do visit Candlekeep regularly.
Note, I'm NOT asking you to deny your criticism. As I've said in the past, Candlekeep is open to ALL who wish to participate in friendly Realms chatter. But there are ways of addressing such criticisms in a manner that is both polite and respectful -- while also managing to get your point across.
I suggest those scribes who are inclined to post such criticism as I've outlined above, review their comments before they post. If you are uncertain of how to address your concerns, feel free to contact me first so that we can discuss them privately.
Thank you.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 29 Aug 2008 06:06:51 |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
 
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 09:36:42
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quote: PA: By the summer of 2005, there wasn’t a whole lot left of Faerûn to discover. We’d spent the last fifteen years or so detailing just about every nook and cranny of the map, in hundreds of books, game products, short stories, comic books, Dragon articles, and Dungeon adventures. There was hardly a square centimeter on the poster map that wasn’t detailed somewhere, and frankly it was getting harder and harder to find room to tell a story. Authors, game designers, and DMs alike were being pushed farther and farther off to the edges. We knew we needed new places to discover, and the ability to refresh the core FORGOTTEN REALMS so that even the Dalelands had some surprises in store.
While it may be true that there are many books on the different areas of the Forgotten Realms it is NOT true that there wasnt anything left to explore. Short of metagaming (inside their own DMs head no less) the players of a FR campaign will never ever have seen everything, because even though the regions and many NPCs have been described these are not all the people and a DM still has to make even them come alive. The way the above sounds is as if an area that is described somewhere cant be explored. I think that is pretty illogical, because you could describe Chult, but the players still have to explore it. So who needs something new to explore? The designers! Not a good enough reason IMO.
quote: Bruce Cordell: At first glance, the century leap forward is the most shocking part of the new FORGOTTEN REALMS setting.
Why the "boring" more-or-less-exact duration of a century?
quote: BRC: In a world where Elminster is merely the tip of an epic level legion of NPC good guys, the opportunity for less powerful PCs and less epic stories was small. Certainly, NPC good guys exist all over the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting, but few of them should be as capable as the PCs. Because of the very nature of the player characters, they are special, a cut above other folks and even potentially touched by fate to one day take up an epic destiny.
This is one of the great myths of the 3rd-edition-FR-haters, because even though these people do exist on the "side of light" there are an equal number or more on the "side of darkness", which can easily be assumed to keep the good guy NPCs busy. So the players are indeed needed!
It is also a lot harder to find out who is a good and who is a really bad guy if there are more powerful NPCs around and finding the one responsible might become pretty hard due to multiple suspects. These "social adventures" are probably not the strength of the designers if they easily throw away these chances. In a dungeon you can easily run around with detect spells and all protective spells you have. Doing the same in a social environment (Waterdeep for example) is a lot harder, because it might not be acceptable in some areas and not everyone can keep all his protective spells up 24 hours a day - and you can spend a lot of time in Waterdeep.
I consider this a lost opportunity.
quote: 3. It’s a place where your character can be the most important person in the world or die in anonymity.
And this wasnt possible in the previous versions? Since the FR has been HUGE it is pretty obvious you couldnt become "the King of the world", but you could become well known in your own corner of the Realms. Becoming "important and well known" is something which people with a big ego want, but its not really a trait I would consider "good" or "necessary". The new version seems to be geared so every kiddo can become Elminster ... the highest level and most magically equipped dude this side of the pecos. Again not really a necessary thing if you ask me.
quote: BRC: The Realms-shaking events that drive sales for the novels are a dichotomy and ongoing tension in the game. From the point of view of game setting design, it’s hard to write a definitive “Guide to the FORGOTTEN REALMS” when you know that a year down the line, three different novel lines will have killed off, altered, or in some other way changed basic features described in that putative “guide.”
But as Phil notes, moving forward is fun. Not moving the game world side of things forward with the novels would mean stagnation for the game setting. Everyone wants to feel they are part of the same dynamic world described in The Orc King, Shadowrealm, or Swordmage./quote] Changing events are fun and they are what keeps a setting alive. This is also the thing I would choose to keep on making money with as a RPG company after everyone has bought all the rulebooks for the game. Having a small booklet of updates - rather like a FR newspaper - every two months or so in accordance with the novels would probably find a good number of customers if done correctly. Political changes like an added Shade enclave or changes in Cormyr could always use some details to flesh it out and come alive. Thus a newspaper which keeps you up to date would be great and easy to handle IMO and it would be vastly preferable to an investment into electronic gadgets, which is the current attempt at creating a stable and permanent income for the company. The moment with any electronic gadget - like the dungeon designer / gaming table - is lost after it is gone, ongoing campaign info will stay and have relevance.
"Moving forward" is indeed fun, but having to start from scratch again isnt for many "old dogs who cant learn new tricks". This new setting, but more than that the totally changed basic rules mean we have to start from scratch again.
[quote]How do you do something like that without reinventing the entire world?
A two-fold plan emerged: A great leap into the future would allow nearly every part of Faerûn to appear fresh to everyone, both new fans and old. No one could be intimately familiar with the previous century’s happenings. Every place would have some element of novelty simply because a century can’t pass without even the most stable of kingdoms seeing some shift or alteration.
The other part of the plan involved literally bringing completely “new” lands into the FORGOTTEN REALMS setting. With Ed Greenwood’s help, the real forgotten realm of Abeir returned to Toril, in the midst of a cataclysm of unleashed wild magic.
IMO the whole world has the feel of being reinvented, because even though some names are the same the content is different. Red (or pink?) Wizards? All the new rules from 4e which have to be included like multiclassing, which has been possible in 3e, but isnt really in 4e. This was important for some big folks. Sinking all the lands beneath the waves is just a - sorry for that word, but its how I feel - lazy way of reducing the work needed to describe and explain the changes.
Speaking of changes: What I see so far from the campaign descriptions doesnt really impress me, because a far too big part describes adventuring hooks, motivations, ideas. While that is neat for the lazy DM it will create stereotype characters and adventures and is a boon for metagaming players. |
If you cant say what youre meaning, you can never mean what youre saying. - Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
Edited by - Pandora on 29 Aug 2008 09:40:53 |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
  
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 10:47:45
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D&D 1974 (about 4 years before edition change) AD&D 1977-79 (about 11 years before edition change) 2nd Edition 1989 (11 years before edition change) 3rd Edition 2000 (3 years before edition change) 3.5 Edition 2003 (5 years before edition change) $ Edition 2008
So at the start, it made sense that the designers issued an improved version fairly early with D&D becoming AD&D. Then there seemed to be a nice pattern of about 11 years, shall we say a decade for each edition. Then we get to this decade and we've already had two new editions. I count 3.5 as a new edition because it had required the three core books to be issued.
When you take into account:
quote: Originally posted by The Red Walker
Hmmmmm....3 years of work on 4e.
the news that work began on $E in 2005 two years after 3.5 Edition and the trend for shorter edition lifetimes I predict that in 2010/2011 we'll see another edition.
How marvellous.
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Death is Life Love is Hate Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States? Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me. Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
Edited by - Kiaransalyn on 29 Aug 2008 11:53:03 |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
  
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 11:04:09
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Brimstone - Thanks for posting that interview. I didn't read it all as I began to feel sick. (And just for the record I've never been impressed by much of what Phil Athans has produced. I'm sure he's a lovely person but I don't like those things that he has authored or co-authored. Just one of those I drink tea, you drink coffee things really, I suppose.)
However,
quote: Bruce Cordell: At first glance, the century leap forward is the most shocking part of the new FORGOTTEN REALMS setting. It is a jaw-dropping change. But it wasn’t a decision made lightly. In fact, it was felt something drastic had to happen in order to breathe new life into a shared world whose well-trampled edges were quickly approaching. Many believed that if something bold wasn’t done to expand the canvas, the world would begin to die beneath its own extensive history of novels and game products.
Who were the 'many' which felt that the Realms was dying under the weight of its own history?
I personally think that the 100 year shift forward was a good move. I view the gap and the Sellplaque nonsense as evidence that the $E Realms are a counter-world, something created by strange shifts in the cosmos. (Or maybe Ao had a dodgy curry.) This Counter Faerun appears to be the creation of a small number of deities who initially masqueraded as the other deities to trick the poor souls that they carried with them.
Maybe in the True Realms, deities like Lolth no longer exist since her presence in the Counter Realms suggest complicity in the Counter Realms plot. Or maybe she does exist in True Faerun but as a lesser deity since a large portion of her power was given over to the creation of Counter Faerun. Mmm, I think I'd like to explore this idea further. |
Death is Life Love is Hate Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States? Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me. Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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arry
Learned Scribe
 
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2008 : 11:19:11
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There were quite a few places in the Realms that were not described in detail. The designers could have detailed them but chose not to. (Or chose to destroy those places instead.) I know that this article is what we have but I don't find those explanations satisfactory.
quote: Originally posted by scererar . . . . there are only 3 ways to handle change in a healthy manner. tactfully disagree and work towards a Positive resolution - Accept the change and commit - or Leave.
As far as 4eFR is concerned, I'll leave. |
Edited by - arry on 29 Aug 2008 11:27:17 |
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