| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 14:58:53
|
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
I've never seen an RPG where it's not the expected norm that the GM describes the world, events and surroundings and the players can ask him questions about it.
It's not like the GM saying 'you enter a 10' by 10' dungeon room' happens in-character.
Of course, but in some RPG, players can also describe the world or at least ask questions that have more impact then "what is the color of the floor", more like "is there a secret door here ?" than the result of the dices thrown (or a consensus) says yes or no.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
If there's tension riding on the result, I'd say almost anything. But then again, I believe in benchmarking things to reality, where little things can and do go wrong, even if it's neither dramatically appropriate nor heroic.
The idea is that is must be both the players and the DM who choose if there is tension associated with a given situation. For example, PCs are hired to kill a dragon in a far away land, they will first travel by boat for a week or two. That's a situation that may or may not take the focus of the adventure. Skiping it (doing a short narration) or focusing on it (rolling dices) decision should be based on players priorities.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
The combat system of Riddle of Steel intrigues me, but the Spiritual Atttributes do not. I don't like cinematic plot-protection.
Of course, but I'm trying to explain to you that things like Spiritual Attributes are not "cinematic plot-protection" mechanics, but players priorities mechanics, and that is good. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 26 Aug 2008 15:01:55 |
 |
|
|
Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 15:11:59
|
The original post here asks for "concrete, undebatable" reasons to switch to 4E. That's since been modified to "any" reason, since "undebatable" didn't exactly get the reactions the poster was looking for.
I never played 3rd Edition, so I can't offer any. I switched from not playing Dungeons & Dragons at all to playing 4E. When I was thinking about getting back into RPGs, the quantity of material on display at the local gaming shop implied a learning curve too steep to climb for something I wanted to do with friends for fun a couple of Sunday afternoons per month. 4E came out, and I've found that in its couple of well-designed books is a system that's, so far, offered fun, intuitive gameplay to the old hands and newcomers alike in my group.
Reasons to switch? Reasons for you to switch? There probably aren't any. Why worry about it? Be one of the folks that still plays 3rd or 2nd or blue box or whatever you play. I'll be on of the folks that plays the new stuff. It'll be fine. |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
Edited by - Christopher_Rowe on 26 Aug 2008 15:13:16 |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 16:48:49
|
quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
For those of you who didn't want to commit to "undebatable" (is that even a word?  ) ideas about 4th ed....uhm....could you give me just...well...ANY reasons why its better? Maybe some a little less subjective than we've seen thus far?
What's "better" for one person may not be so for another. And honestly, it seems to me like you've already made up your mind. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 16:50:39
|
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Once, as part of a joke, I had the players in my campaign fill out "performance reviews" based on my conduct as their DM. It's since become a regular feature of most campaigns I run, as it helps provide worthwhile feedback between myself and the players, and the state of my overall Dungeon Mastering.
I think that's a great idea. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 16:53:15
|
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
I also think its better to have a choice in alignments AND of giving them a meaning instead of - more or less - forcing your group to be either "good guys" or "bad guys".
To be fair, you're no more "forced" to be good or bad in 4E than in 3E. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
|
|
|
Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 17:49:53
|
| If one was to buy the latest version of the FRCS does one need the core books as well? I would assume not but I'd like to know for sure. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
|
|
|
Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3254 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 17:56:34
|
I recall reading an article (here or the WotC boards or the WotC site), but I cannot find it now. It dealt with what was coming in future releases and it touched on how other schools of magic would be presented in more depth. So, I believe Holy Word and spells like them are simple a book or two away since they have been a pretty integral part to the game system from day one.
Also, for every Holy Word, there was an Unholy version of the spell. So if you were playing a character that was targeted by a spell because of your alignment, you could always discuss with your cleric/magic-user to memorize a like spell. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
|
|
|
Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 18:05:50
|
quote:
[i]If $E were going to release new source-books to support the setting then that would be a good reason to sell your soul to Hasmodeus.
I'm quoting this because I agree with the statement AND with the typo: $E. We may as well call it that. I was willing to purchase 3rd ed (and hell, even 3.5) books because the changes were sweeping, exciting and attractive to my gaming group. So far, Wizards hasn't really stepped up and given those reasons.
A WoW-addicted friend of mine has really opened my eyes to this situation by the by. MANY of the new $E rules come straight out of the World of Warcraft handbook (a 'warlock' who gets his power from demonic forces, terms like "tank" and "striker", etc). It seems that the effort to bring in the money lost to 'kick-in-the-door' style WoW fans begat what they're now calling 4E (which limits the DM, it seems, to being not much else than a computer). Which of course, is a fine way to play D&D...just not a fine reason to switch and plunk down another 100 dollars to play a brand new game.
Least-a-ways, not for me.  |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
Edited by - Arion Elenim on 26 Aug 2008 18:08:10 |
|
|
|
Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 18:11:35
|
quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
A WoW-addicted friend of mine has really opened my eyes to this situation by the by. MANY of the new $E rules come straight out of the World of Warcraft handbook (a 'warlock' who gets his power from demonic forces, terms like "tank" and "striker", etc). It seems that the effort to bring in the money lost to 'kick-in-the-door' style WoW fans begat what they're now calling 4E (which limits the DM, it seems, to being not much else than a computer).
That's BS. WoW didn't create either Warlock nor "combat roles".
Worse ? If something, the DM is less a computer in 4E than in 3E where all the monsters/magic effects have to follow strict rules. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 26 Aug 2008 18:12:46 |
|
|
|
Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 18:27:29
|
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
I also think its better to have a choice in alignments AND of giving them a meaning instead of - more or less - forcing your group to be either "good guys" or "bad guys".
To be fair, you're no more "forced" to be good or bad in 4E than in 3E.
In a way you are, because there are fewer nuances in 4e, so the differences between good and evil should be much bigger (unless you simply choose the boring "dont bother me with morals" undecided alignment). Lawful Good is different from Neutral Good and from Chaotic Good. These distinctions were lost and its a shame.
I was also referring to Skeptics post about alignment being a "trap" where you could end up having a "wrong alignment". In 4e the whole group will probably have 1 or 2 alignments out of the five, so you are "forced" to conform to the group (or it becomes a bit illogical/strained). In 3rd edition you could play chaotic good in a good group and interpret "the local rules" a little differently from your lawful good paladin buddy and have your freedom. That is why I said it was a "forced alignment". |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
Edited by - Pandora on 26 Aug 2008 18:30:07 |
|
|
|
Neil
Learned Scribe
Canada
107 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 18:50:18
|
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
This isn't a trap at all, and there are no wrong aligments.
I'm talking of spells like Holy Word and its variants. 4E is better without them.
I don't agree with that interpretation, anymore than I think playing a character race without fire resistance is a trap, because fireballs victimize them, or having fewer than 60hp is a trap because of power word kill.
I don't see anything wrong with a spell that affects evil. Especially given that Holy Word only outright killed low level types, and any GM that put low-level PCs in a position where a 14th level cleric was trying to kill them, and they could escape, is kind of a jerk. |
|
|
|
Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 18:52:40
|
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
A WoW-addicted friend of mine has really opened my eyes to this situation by the by. MANY of the new $E rules come straight out of the World of Warcraft handbook (a 'warlock' who gets his power from demonic forces, terms like "tank" and "striker", etc). It seems that the effort to bring in the money lost to 'kick-in-the-door' style WoW fans begat what they're now calling 4E (which limits the DM, it seems, to being not much else than a computer).
That's BS. WoW didn't create either Warlock nor "combat roles".
Worse ? If something, the DM is less a computer in 4E than in 3E where all the monsters/magic effects have to follow strict rules.
"BS?" Is that what we're resorting to here on the forums these days? Wow.
And I didn't say Warlock originated there. Just the concept of drawing magic directly from demons AND actually being called "strikers" as opposed to something less power-game-sounding. It's right out of the WoW handbook, and those terms have never been used in a D&D setting before.
And there is nothing strict about 3e. That's why it is so much fun. Don't like a rule? Chuck it. 4ed actually says things like "we don't support you rolling dice for character stats." |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
|
|
|
Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 19:05:22
|
quote:
Originally posted by Neil
I don't agree with that interpretation, anymore than I think playing a character race without fire resistance is a trap, because fireballs victimize them, or having fewer than 60hp is a trap because of power word kill.
That's not the same. Fire resistance is part of the character creation (one would say optimization) game within the game, that is fine.
Alignment should'nt be part of that, because restricting roleplaying isn't fun and create lots of player/DM problems.
One example of Alignment as trap is having PCs in the same party, all good but some lawful, some neutral or chaotic. Now some spells (don't remember the names) will affect them differently (and if one of them has a LA, he'll probably get killed). |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36996 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 19:08:48
|
quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
4ed actually says things like "we don't support you rolling dice for character stats."
Is that actually in one of the books?  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 19:13:00
|
quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
And I didn't say Warlock originated there. Just the concept of drawing magic directly from demons AND actually being called "strikers" as opposed to something less power-game-sounding. It's right out of the WoW handbook, and those terms have never been used in a D&D setting before.
I won't be ashamed to say that what you say is false (Warlock).
MMOs and CRPGs really don't create much, they take stuff from elsewhere and some flavor over it.
Combat roles were identified in D&D long ago, IIRC, there is a somewhat old Dragon magazine about them.
I don't know if WoW actually coined the term "Striker", but that is completly irrelevant.
quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
And there is nothing strict about 3e. That's why it is so much fun. Don't like a rule? Chuck it. 4ed actually says things like "we don't support you rolling dice for character stats."
The difference is that 4E knows what she wants. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 26 Aug 2008 19:14:17 |
|
|
|
Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 19:17:50
|
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
Alignment should'nt be part of that, because restricting roleplaying isn't fun and create lots of player/DM problems.
One example of Alignment as trap is having PCs in the same party, all good but some lawful, some neutral or chaotic. Now some spells (don't remember the names) will affect them differently (and if one of them has a LA, he'll probably get killed).
But there is no problem here. Of course they will be affected differently. And? |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
|
|
|
Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 19:21:23
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
But there is no problem here. Of course they will be affected differently. And?
I don't want players chosing their character "mindset" while looking at the list of spells. That's what 3.x teach them.
|
Edited by - Skeptic on 26 Aug 2008 19:21:43 |
|
|
|
Neil
Learned Scribe
Canada
107 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 19:23:21
|
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
Alignment should'nt be part of that, because restricting roleplaying isn't fun and create lots of player/DM problems.
One example of Alignment as trap is having PCs in the same party, all good but some lawful, some neutral or chaotic. Now some spells (don't remember the names) will affect them differently (and if one of them has a LA, he'll probably get killed).
But what's wrong with spells affecting them differently? I'm not familiar with the acronym 'LA'.
How does alignment restrict roleplay, anyways? It's a classification tool. |
|
|
|
Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 19:29:09
|
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
But there is no problem here. Of course they will be affected differently. And?
I don't want players chosing their character "mindset" while looking at the list of spells. That's what 3.x teach them.
Sorry, no. That's not the fault of 3.x but of the players.
Of course the way they choose for their lifes will have consequences later on. Nothing wrong with that. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
|
|
|
Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 19:44:12
|
| There's nothing a rulebook can do to prevent bad gamers and poor DMS from ruining fun. So I don't see why WotC should try to do this by limiting what players can do. Basically, it seems like they're giving us the same game, with fewer options and less roleplay opportunities so that things are more combat-oriented for a more power game feel, which is fine. I just don't see me abandoning 3rd ed for those reasons, as the whole point of gaming, for me at least, is the roleplay aspect, enhanced by combat, rather than the other way around. |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
|
|
|
Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 20:08:41
|
quote:
Originally posted by Neil
How does alignment restrict roleplay, anyways? It's a classification tool.
It's not a mere classfication tool when a shift can means life or death.
LA = Level Ajustement.
Alignment (if used at all) should be a player priorities mechanic, a way to tell the DM what kind of situations the player want to play with (and that's what 4E is doing!). |
Edited by - Skeptic on 26 Aug 2008 20:20:29 |
|
|
|
Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 20:13:23
|
quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
There's nothing a rulebook can do to prevent bad gamers and poor DMS from ruining fun.
That's not so simple. I don't think there are definitive good/bad players or DMs. Most "bad habbits" come from actual experience of play, and that's where the rulebook can make a difference.
|
Edited by - Skeptic on 26 Aug 2008 20:15:08 |
|
|
|
Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 20:13:28
|
quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
There's nothing a rulebook can do to prevent bad gamers and poor DMS from ruining fun. So I don't see why WotC should try to do this by limiting what players can do. Basically, it seems like they're giving us the same game, with fewer options and less roleplay opportunities so that things are more combat-oriented for a more power game feel, which is fine. I just don't see me abandoning 3rd ed for those reasons, as the whole point of gaming, for me at least, is the roleplay aspect, enhanced by combat, rather than the other way around.
Hey, I'm willing to bet that by this point, nobody reading this really wants you to switch. I'm a big proponent of 4E, but seriously, I don't think it's a good idea.
As for whether one version of the rules of D&D or another somehow provides "less roleplay opportunites," well...
Well, I guess you play RPGs differently than I do is all I can say. |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
|
|
|
Neil
Learned Scribe
Canada
107 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 20:27:34
|
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
It's not a mere classfication tool when a shift can means life or death.
A change in alignment can mean life or death? How?
quote:
LA = Level Ajustement.
Ah. Thanks.
quote:
Alignment (if used at all) should be a player priorities mechanic, a way to tell the DM what kind of situations the player want to play with (and that's what 4E is doing!).
I don't agree. In a fantasy world, where there is magic and good and evil, there's nothing wrong with having mechanics that relate to that goodness and evil. |
|
|
|
Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 20:37:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by Neil
A change in alignment can mean life or death? How?
Holy word and its variants.
quote:
Originally posted by Neil
I don't agree. In a fantasy world, where there is magic and good and evil, there's nothing wrong with having mechanics that relate to that goodness and evil.
I don't have a problem with a RPG built on this idea, but in this thread I try to stick with "what I think is best for D&D". |
|
|
|
Neil
Learned Scribe
Canada
107 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 20:51:52
|
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
quote:
Originally posted by Neil
A change in alignment can mean life or death? How?
Holy word and its variants.
But it's not the change in alignment that is the problem, but rather the alignment itself. I still don't understand why you have a big problem with Holy Word, but not with other spells. Is it really out of line to have a spell that works like the power words, is mitigated by level, but only affects people diametrically opposed to the cleric casting it? |
|
|
|
Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 20:55:17
|
quote:
Originally posted by Neil
I still don't understand why you have a big problem with Holy Word, but not with other spells. Is it really out of line to have a spell that works like the power words, is mitigated by level, but only affects people diametrically opposed to the cleric casting it?
Got a CG killed, two NG blinded and a LG unharmed in a big fight and you'll see .
Now imagine that one of them just shifted.
That's the kind of thing I don't want to see in my D&D games. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 26 Aug 2008 20:57:06 |
|
|
|
Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3254 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 21:11:13
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
4ed actually says things like "we don't support you rolling dice for character stats."
Is that actually in one of the books?
Actual quote:
quote:
Method 3: Rolling Scores
Some players like the idea of generating ability scores randomly. The result of this method can be really good, or it can be really bad. On average, you’ll come out a little worse than if you had used the standard array. If you roll well, you can come out way ahead, but if you roll poorly, you might generate a character who’s virtually unplayable. Use this method with caution.
|
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
|
|
|
Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3254 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 21:17:54
|
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
Got a CG killed, two NG blinded and a LG unharmed in a big fight and you'll see .
And somehow I doubt you would be complaining as loudly about this if they cast Words of Chaos instead.
EDIT (AGAIN):
Okay, first off, Holy Word only effects NON-GOOD characters. The effects upon the Character is based upon their level, with characters that are 10 levels below the caster dying, not because they are Chaotic. So I have two suggestions 1) Fire your DM for putting you in an encounter designed to kill you and 2) learn about the spell being used against you instead of taking the DM's word as law. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 26 Aug 2008 21:23:40 |
|
|
|
Neil
Learned Scribe
Canada
107 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 21:36:34
|
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
Got a CG killed, two NG blinded and a LG unharmed in a big fight and you'll see .
Now imagine that one of them just shifted.
That's the kind of thing I don't want to see in my D&D games.
I don't think that's how the spell works. It kills, maims and wounds based on level, not distance from the caster's alignment. Unless you had a wide variety of levels in your party. Generally speaking, low-level characters shouldn't be taking on guys who can cast 7th-level cleric spells, in my opinion. I'd be more annoyed at the DM than anything. You got hit with a word of law, but would you be less annoyed if your party got scragged by a mass death or an incendiary cloud?
Well, ultimately it's your opinion, and it can't be changed. I just feel differently. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Concrete, undebatable reasons to switch to 4th ed.
Topic Locked
