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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Aug 2008 : 20:12:12
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I'm old. A wholloping 27. You heard me right.
As such, I was in my late teens during the 3rd ed changeover, a gamer for about two or three years. Our DM sat us down and said we were switching to this new, crazy 3rd edition. All dissent was quelled, however, when he showed us the ease of play, the lack of that blasted THAC0, and how quite simply, pluses were good, minuses were bad. There were suddenly no class/race restrictions, we could be the characters we wanted to be.
We were immediately hooked.
As such, I'm waiting to hear the reasons to switch now to 4th ed. The art looks cartoony, weak and without substance, the play seems slunky and unimaginative and the hitherto mentioned overhaul of the deity system (somthing so very integral to all of my campaigns) has been unanimously disconcerting to say the least...
In conclusion: so far I haven't seen a single solitary reason that trumps my desire to remain in comfy, creative, 3.5. Can some of you list some BIG reasons to switch?
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My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
Edited by - Arion Elenim on 25 Aug 2008 20:15:20
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2008 : 20:39:42
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Hey, 27 isn't old!
Anyway, I can't really answer your question, because I can't think of any undebatable answer. Nor would I attempt to persuade someone to "switch" from a system they still like.
I haven't "switched" to 4E, because I don't "marry" gaming systems. I'll use any one if I get the chance to. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 25 Aug 2008 21:10:56 |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2008 : 20:54:52
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27 is indeed not old ... but, of course, one is always as old as one feels.
Plain and simple, 4E raped "my" Realms. Which is one reason not to switch. Which isn't something that you asked for. I am still waiting to see someone to prove to me convincingly that what is called 4E is still D&D. It mostly uses the same terminology, but there it essentially ends for me. I've got 30odd 3E/RE books and those will keep me a happy gamer of D&D for years to come and no matter what happens to the Realms, there is no need to switch editions for post-Spellplague stuff either. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 25 Aug 2008 20:55:52 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3254 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2008 : 21:04:37
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| What Zanan said actually reminds me of the great football debate. Y'know, American football and the rest of the world's football (soccer)? Lots of the same terminology (goal, defensive back, halfback, etc.) but two ENTIRELY different games. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2008 : 21:26:52
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Well, I'm a big cheerleader for 4E--we just ran our third session on Sunday and it continues to be a blast for all involved, from the old hands to the never-gameds--but I can't give you any "undebatable" reasons for my belief that it rocks. "Undebatable" is a term best left for stuff like, I dunno, gravity and time and Lindor dark chocolate truffles.
If you dig 3rd edition a bunch, stick with it. |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2008 : 21:33:56
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| The only concrete, non-debatable reason I could give you is the thrill and excitement that used to accompany a new source-book being released. If $E were going to release new source-books to support the setting then that would be a good reason to sell your soul to Hasmodeus. However, from what I think is the case the support material is going to be released on DDi (which sounds like a poor relation of DDT). |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2008 : 21:49:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
As such, I'm waiting to hear the reasons to switch now to 4th ed. The art looks cartoony, weak and without substance, the play seems slunky and unimaginative and the hitherto mentioned overhaul of the deity system (somthing so very integral to all of my campaigns) has been unanimously disconcerting to say the least...
In conclusion: so far I haven't seen a single solitary reason that trumps my desire to remain in comfy, creative, 3.5. Can some of you list some BIG reasons to switch?
First, don't confuse 4E core rules and the FR setting as described in the FRCG, both have their good/bad things, but they it's better to discuss each of them separatly.
The 4E core rules have all you said about 3.xE above and are even more strealimed (at the general level).
IMHO, the best things about 4E on the top of my head (vs 3.xE) :
- Say goodbye to pre-combat buff, what happens during combat really matters now.
- Non-combat spells/effects moved to Rituals where you can pick what you want from who you want according to campaign's theme/genre.
- Skills are more open-ended.
- "Show instead of Tell" design for Monsters. Instead of telling that "goblins try to avoid being cornered in combat", the MM gives them abilities that reflect their evasive nature.
- Every classes are playable at every level.
- Much less "Rules of games are the physics of the gameworld" kind of rules.
-Cleric & Paladin PCs are free from DM using his interpretation of the patron deity dogma to punish them.
-LA are gone.
-Magic Items were toned down (no more stat boost!)
-Many "Unless you have a feat, you can't do that or you'll get a huge penalty" cases were removed.
-Most save-or-die effects are gone.
-Teamwork between PCs is expected.
-XP is not used as a resource anymore.
-Alignement is not a trap anymore.
I may add some more later  |
Edited by - Skeptic on 25 Aug 2008 21:59:40 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36996 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2008 : 22:10:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
As such, I'm waiting to hear the reasons to switch now to 4th ed. The art looks cartoony, weak and without substance, the play seems slunky and unimaginative and the hitherto mentioned overhaul of the deity system (somthing so very integral to all of my campaigns) has been unanimously disconcerting to say the least...
In conclusion: so far I haven't seen a single solitary reason that trumps my desire to remain in comfy, creative, 3.5. Can some of you list some BIG reasons to switch?
First, don't confuse 4E core rules and the FR setting as described in the FRCG, both have their good/bad things, but they it's better to discuss each of them separatly.
The 4E core rules have all you said about 3.xE above and are even more strealimed (at the general level).
IMHO, the best things about 4E on the top of my head (vs 3.xE) :
- Say goodbye to pre-combat buff, what happens during combat really matters now.
- Non-combat spells/effects moved to Rituals where you can pick what you want from who you want according to campaign's theme/genre.
- Skills are more open-ended.
- "Show instead of Tell" design for Monsters. Instead of telling that "goblins try to avoid being cornered in combat", the MM gives them abilities that reflect their evasive nature.
- Every classes are playable at every level.
- Much less "Rules of games are the physics of the gameworld" kind of rules.
-Cleric & Paladin PCs are free from DM using his interpretation of the patron deity dogma to punish them.
-LA are gone.
-Magic Items were toned down (no more stat boost!)
-Many "Unless you have a feat, you can't do that or you'll get a huge penalty" cases were removed.
-Most save-or-die effects are gone.
-Teamwork between PCs is expected.
-XP is not used as a resource anymore.
-Alignement is not a trap anymore.
I may add some more later
Actually, from some of the things I've seen, just about every one of your points is subjective. Teamwork between PCs was always expected, for example, and some of us have never felt that alignment was a trap.
I'm not trying to argue for either game system when I say that, either. I'm just saying that many of the things I've seen listed as improvements for 4E were either already in existence, were not things that are universally considered improvements, or are arguably worse in 4E, depending on who you ask. Pretty much, it's all subjective. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 25 Aug 2008 22:11:06 |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2008 : 22:15:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Teamwork between PCs was always expected, for example, and some of us have never felt that alignment was a trap.
Expected as a written guideline in the PHB/DMG maybe, but with 4E, the mechanics are built on teamwork (Leaders classes like Cleric and Warlord just don't work solo).
Trap as in "you chose the wrong alignement, so this spell kills you".
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Pretty much, it's all subjective.
I don't agree that it is purely subjective, but I don't feel to go there today |
Edited by - Skeptic on 25 Aug 2008 22:16:32 |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 05:16:00
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So far, all the pluses I'm hearing about 4th ed. are things 3rd ed. already gave us. I guess I just don't see the reason to plunk down the money yet. I like my gnomes and my monks where they are.
For those of you who didn't want to commit to "undebatable" (is that even a word?  ) ideas about 4th ed....uhm....could you give me just...well...ANY reasons why its better? Maybe some a little less subjective than we've seen thus far?
And DMs who "punish" players should be shot, no matter what edition they're playing... |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
Edited by - Arion Elenim on 26 Aug 2008 05:18:00 |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 05:22:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
And DMs who "punish" players should be shot, no matter what edition they're playing...
Sadly, DM as punisher is pretty common with D&D, so something that can help reduce it is welcome.
If you simply reject all the reasons I posted above, I won't care giving you more. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 26 Aug 2008 05:23:21 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36996 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 06:04:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
And DMs who "punish" players should be shot, no matter what edition they're playing...
Sadly, DM as punisher is pretty common with D&D, so something that can help reduce it is welcome.
I disagree. It's never happened to me, and none of my gamer friends have spoken of being punished by the DM. I know bad DMs are out there, but I rarely hear about them. I don't think it's common at all. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 07:04:14
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| Once, as part of a joke, I had the players in my campaign fill out "performance reviews" based on my conduct as their DM. It's since become a regular feature of most campaigns I run, as it helps provide worthwhile feedback between myself and the players, and the state of my overall Dungeon Mastering. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 08:28:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Teamwork between PCs was always expected, for example, and some of us have never felt that alignment was a trap.
Expected as a written guideline in the PHB/DMG maybe, but with 4E, the mechanics are built on teamwork (Leaders classes like Cleric and Warlord just don't work solo).
Trap as in "you chose the wrong alignement, so this spell kills you".
I vastly prefer the option of freedom of having the choice of working together or not. In 3rd edition there is only one class which really did support others as a major part of his powers and that is the Bard. All others - mages / clerics / ... - can choose different spells and thus shift their focus from this aspect.
I also think its better to have a choice in alignments AND of giving them a meaning instead of - more or less - forcing your group to be either "good guys" or "bad guys". |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 08:48:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
Trap as in "you chose the wrong alignement, so this spell kills you".
This isn't a trap at all, and there are no wrong aligments. |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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Na-Gang
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
348 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 10:01:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
Sadly, DM as punisher is pretty common with D&D, so something that can help reduce it is welcome.
The only time I've ever had a character punished by a DM, I think we got off quite lightly. We were fairly high level and playing the Against The Giants/Queen of the Demonweb Pits adventures set in Greyhawk and we quite brashly attacked a Drow temple to Lolth. We did pretty well to get as far as we did, but the High Priestess and her immediate underlings trounced us.
As a result most of the characters lost limbs before we eventually escaped. I feel that that was wholly justified though, since we were behaving like dolts, and besides we had a druid who could cast Regenerate. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 10:48:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
And DMs who "punish" players should be shot, no matter what edition they're playing...
How do you define punish? |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 10:55:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
For those of you who didn't want to commit to "undebatable" (is that even a word? ) ideas about 4th ed....uhm....could you give me just...well...ANY reasons why its better? Maybe some a little less subjective than we've seen thus far?
I'm afraid I can't give you any reasons why it is better. Sorry. 
For the record, I don't think $E is better. Which maybe why I can't provide any good reasons.
As regards DM punishment I used to regularly whip my PCs using one of my NPCs and the PCs had to express gratitude. It was a drow setting however. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 11:22:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
And DMs who "punish" players should be shot, no matter what edition they're playing...
How do you define punish?
I think players talk of being punished when they themselves have failed to see the danger of their own actions and probably died in the process. They simply werent up for the challenge placed before them. Whining and saying "the DM punished me/us" is just the way of kids who havent accepted that they dont always get what they want. Punishing DMs - if you insist they do exist - isnt something that is restricted to non-4e systems btw.
And a quote from Babylon 5:
"I used to think it was awful that life was so unfair.
Then I thought: Wouldnt it be much worse if life were fair and all the terrible things that happen to us come because we actually deserve them.
So now I take great comfort in the general hostility and unfairness of the universe."
Marcus Cole, Season 3, episode 13 "A late delivery from Avalon"
Personally I dont think switching to 4e is a good thing if you dont want to start again from scratch. The style of the classes is totally different, the basic races have changed a lot (more exotic ones are in now) and a lot of old traditions have been reduced to ash. So as long as you are comfortable with your gaming material there is no reason for you to switch. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
Edited by - Pandora on 26 Aug 2008 11:31:45 |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 11:47:48
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| Thanks for the Marcus Cole quote. I often recall that particular piece of wisdom. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36996 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 12:57:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
Thanks for the Marcus Cole quote. I often recall that particular piece of wisdom.
Ditto. Marcus was one of my fave characters from the series. I think G'Kar was the only one who was cooler.
I assume that the DMs Skeptic referred to are the ones that see it as a goal to kill the PCs. And like I said, while I have heard tales of them, they have been few and far between, compared to tales of good or at least non-jerky DMs. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 13:11:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
This isn't a trap at all, and there are no wrong aligments.
I'm talking of spells like Holy Word and its variants. 4E is better without them. |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 13:19:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I assume that the DMs Skeptic referred to are the ones that see it as a goal to kill the PCs. And like I said, while I have heard tales of them, they have been few and far between, compared to tales of good or at least non-jerky DMs.
Nope, that's not what I'm talking about.
I'm talking about DM punishing players because they don't know enough setting lore or more commonly, because they fail to perceive/interpret the world the same way he does.
That is often the result of a group trying to hard to reduce "meta-gaming" communication.
Another form of punishement is never "saying yes" and asking players to roll for everything they do.
It can also be to let a player choose a race/class/deity, something like a drow, then making his life terrible during play for choosing to play such character. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 26 Aug 2008 13:25:15 |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 13:26:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
I also think its better to have a choice in alignments AND of giving them a meaning instead of - more or less - forcing your group to be either "good guys" or "bad guys".
Alignments don't have much to do with fighting effectively in combat. |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 13:45:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Marcus was one of my fave characters from the series. I think G'Kar was the only one who was cooler.
True, although Marcus did have a better haircut. "And they made a very satisfying thump as they hit the ground."
On a personal note, and getting back on topic, I like the spell 'Holy Word' since their are real world connections to such words of power. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1871 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 14:14:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
Nope, that's not what I'm talking about.
I'm talking about DM punishing players because they don't know enough setting lore or more commonly, because they fail to perceive/interpret the world the same way he does.
That is often the result of a group trying to hard to reduce "meta-gaming" communication.
The most basic advice I can give here is 'don't play with jerks'. There is nothing the game system can do to make jerks less offensive or more interesting. Indeed, should it try, it will probably result in limiting the options of the normal people too much.
Games like Monopoly don't have a GM at all, but that doesn't mean that it's pleasant to play them with people who are boring, unimaginative and vindictive.
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
Another form of punishement is never "saying yes" and asking players to roll for everything they do.
While slowing things down to a crawl isn't good, I don't see anything wrong with NOT deciding occasionally by GM-fiat that the characters have suceeded 'because it fits the adventure'. The GM isn't there to 'say yes', he's there to represent the world the characters play in. And if he was 'saying yes' all the time, that would ruin most people's suspension of disbelief, since that doesn't match the way the world behaves.
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
It can also be to let a player choose a race/class/deity, something like a drow, then making his life terrible during play for choosing to play such character.
What's wrong with that?
If a player wants to play a character that has crippling social problems, such as one that worships a god that's widely feared or comes from a race that's hated and feared everywhere, what in the world is wrong with allowing him that?
Torturing the character ceaselessly isn't the same as punishing the player. The player, presumably, asked for the challenge for portraying a character that wouldn't fit in. If he didn't want to face the roleplaying challenges of it, why did he ask for it? |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 14:23:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
There is nothing the game system can do to make jerks less offensive or more interesting. Indeed, should it try, it will probably result in limiting the options of the normal people too much.
The system can says that communication between players and DMs is a good thing instead of saying that is a bad thing. That has nothing do to with people being jerk or not.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
While slowing things down to a crawl isn't good, I don't see anything wrong with NOT deciding occasionally by GM-fiat that the characters have suceeded 'because it fits the adventure'. The GM isn't there to 'say yes', he's there to represent the world the characters play in. And if he was 'saying yes' all the time, that would ruin most people's suspension of disbelief, since that doesn't match the way the world behaves.
What happen in the gameworld is narrated/acted by the players and the DM. The gameworld doesn't know how the people around the table chose to add a particuliar event into it (either a thrown dice or a consensus).
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
What's wrong with that?
If a player wants to play a character that has crippling social problems, such as one that worships a god that's widely feared or comes from a race that's hated and feared everywhere, what in the world is wrong with allowing him that?
Torturing the character ceaselessly isn't the same as punishing the player. The player, presumably, asked for the challenge for portraying a character that wouldn't fit in. If he didn't want to face the roleplaying challenges of it, why did he ask for it?
The problem is that the player may not see/understand the same "challenges" than the DM has in his mind. If it is player-driven, there is no problem with that. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 26 Aug 2008 14:31:08 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1871 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 14:30:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
The system can says that communication between players and DMs is a good thing instead of saying that is a bad thing. That has nothing do to with people being jerk or not.
I've played a lot of roleplaying games. I've never encountered one that suggested that communication was bad. In a social hobby, that would be tantamount to a non-sequitur. It's a game about communication.
If WotC is trying to tell people that 4e D&D is somehow unlike other roleplaying games because it encourages communication, then that's like a soda pop company advertising its wares based on the fact that they're carbonated.
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
What happen in the gameworld is narrated/acted by the players and the DM. The gameworld doesn't know the people around the table chose to add a particuliar event into it (either a thrown dice or a consensus).
The people know and a lot of gamers are turned off by GM-fiat rulings like that. It's for the same reason that some people hate happy coincidences in movies, novels or other forms of media. Deux ex machina is lazy literary technique, no matter the form.
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
The problem is that the player may not see/understand the same "challenges" than the DM have in his mind. If it is player-driven, there is no problem with that.
Two things.
First, making characters is a collaborative effort. It's the player's responsibility to design a character that fits the campaign and other characters. It's the GM's responsibility to see that he has enough information to do so.
Second, perhaps a game system that included actual rules for such challenges would be better? After all, systems like GURPS, HERO, etc. have been doing it for years and it's about time that D&D moved away from miniatures based gaming. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36996 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 14:32:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
I also think its better to have a choice in alignments AND of giving them a meaning instead of - more or less - forcing your group to be either "good guys" or "bad guys".
Alignments don't have much to do with fighting effectively in combat.
My D&D games have never focused exclusively on combat. |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 14:37:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
I've played a lot of roleplaying games. I've never encountered one that suggested that communication was bad. In a social hobby, that would be tantamount to a non-sequitur. It's a game about communication.
I'm talking about "meta-gaming" communication between players (not PCs) and DM (not NPCs) here.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
The people know and a lot of gamers are turned off by GM-fiat rulings like that. It's for the same reason that some people hate happy coincidences in movies, novels or other forms of media. Deux ex machina is lazy literary technique, no matter the form.
I'm not advocating anything related to "Deux ex machina". I'm talking about players and DM, choosing together, what kind of situations require rolls.
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Second, perhaps a game system that included actual rules for such challenges would be better? After all, systems like GURPS, HERO, etc. have been doing it for years and it's about time that D&D moved away from miniatures based gaming.
I would have bet GURPS is a system you like, but no I don't think that's the right direction to look at. Riddle of Steel or Burning Wheel would be much more interesting. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1871 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 14:45:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
I'm talking about "meta-gaming" communication between players (not PCs) and DM (not NPCs) here.
I've never seen an RPG where it's not the expected norm that the GM describes the world, events and surroundings and the players can ask him questions about it.
It's not like the GM saying 'you enter a 10' by 10' dungeon room' happens in-character.
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
I'm not advocating anything related to "Deux ex machina". I'm talking about players and DM, choosing together, what kind of situations require rolls.
If there's tension riding on the result, I'd say almost anything. But then again, I believe in benchmarking things to reality, where little things can and do go wrong, even if it's neither dramatically appropriate nor heroic.
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
I would have bet GURPS is a system you like, but no I don't think that's the right direction to look at. Riddle of Steel or Burning Wheel would be much more interesting.
The combat system of Riddle of Steel intrigues me, but the Spiritual Atttributes do not. I don't like cinematic plot-protection. |
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Topic |
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Concrete, undebatable reasons to switch to 4th ed.
Topic Locked
