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Chataro
Learned Scribe
Singapore
114 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Aug 2008 : 15:46:14
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I was just thinking about 4ed and I was just wondering.....
Was the changes annoying us or was it the changes that seems to happen without any big touch on? Khelben died in a blaze of glory. SYlune died fighting dragons invading shadowdale. but it seems like for 4e, lots of big changes are happening without any elaboration from the planners.
If a novel or a series of novels was wrote to explain how this happened or how that happened, would we mind as much?
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3248 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2008 : 15:55:26
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In regards to Realmslore, I think that would make a lot of us happy. Being the librarian/fact-minded people we are here, it annoys us no end to not know the details of what happened (at least that's my take).
With 4th Edition, however, I can say personally it's a distaste of the rules system. It may have the D&D brand, but it doesn't feel like it to me. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
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Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2008 : 16:05:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Chataro
If a novel or a series of novels was wrote to explain how this happened or how that happened, would we mind as much?
I can only speak for myself, but I wouldn't have minded as much if the changes would have been introced in congruence with existing realms' lore, without major errors, in an intelligent, logical way which doesn't smells of "cheap soap opera", with understandable reasons for the changes, and in a way which shows respect for the Realms and not utter disregard as it is now. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2008 : 17:06:43
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| I am not that bothered, as canon means little to me, but I would definitely say the changes. I don't care much about the reason if I don't like the results in the first place. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2008 : 17:13:02
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Originally they stated after Gencon that NO novels were being written in the 'Spellplague Era', and that period of time would just be "glossed over". In the last preview Podcast, RB re-affirmed this, but then was immediately corrected by Bruce Cordell, who stated his own upcoming series would be the excpetion.
Since that time, several more novels were announced that will be taking place in that 'lost century', so contrary to what they said, we will be getting lore about this era... but only through the novels.
Pure Conjecture:
The only guys allowed to write novels during that century are the in-house guys. I personally feel that they actually set-aside this century as their private sandbox - one in which there will be no-conflicting lore, so that they can write whatever they please all willy-nilly, without having to study all that 'yucky' FR canon.
Once again, I truly feel the time-jump was done entirely to make THEIR life easier.
But thats just my take.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2008 : 17:28:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
I can only speak for myself, but I wouldn't have minded as much if the changes would have been introced in congruence with existing realms' lore, without major errors, in an intelligent, logical way which doesn't smells of "cheap soap opera", with understandable reasons for the changes, and in a way which shows respect for the Realms and not utter disregard as it is now.
Exactly!!! It is as if they put no effort at all into trying to make the changes in the 4e Realms palatable for those who dislike them. For me, it is the "Here are the changes; take them or leave them, we no longer care about your opinion as a customer anymore," attitude that has pissed me off. I all I wanted was well thought out and logical reasons based in current lore for the changes. Like the fact that the killing of the deity of magic (something that has happened twice before) for some random reason caused the Spellplague this time (I mentioned to Rich that the death of Ao would have made much more sense for the desired result). Or that they said that the Spellplague flowed around areas of strong magic; but inexplicably, Halruaa was detonated. And the fact that they were trying to cull the "bad ideas" of the 2e and 3e Realms, but they kept the Shadow Weave (which Rich admitted was one of his own "bad ideas"). |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2008 : 18:38:17
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I can't imagine anyone wanting FR to fail. That just doesn't make sense as far as I'm concerned, not when the bean counters are worried about the bottom line and control the purse strings. It seems a lot more likely that the designers have a list of things they can do and a list of things they cannot do and that the list includes things like "Keep it simple." "Make it flashy." "Make it easier for minis." "Don't waste words explaining things, just produce that which will be used in game, immediately."
Personally, I can't imagine I'll buy the FRCG, the price and the page count both make me shake my head in dismay and there hasn't been an excerpt yet that has convinced me I'd be happy about the purchase. When I get back from vacation (first burning man!) I'll look through one at a store but I don't hold out much hope that I'll find it even remotely worthwhile.
And it sure could just be me growing up. I don't think that it's a likely explanation, especially since I still enjoy the 2E stuff a bunch, but it's possible.
Anyhow, I guess what it comes down to for myself is that I just don't see the quality nor the quantity that I've come to expect from Realmslore. I'm sure there are still gems in there but I just don't believe that the gems are worth the price. I'd love to get explanations about the events, I just don't believe that the explanations would be of a quality that I would enjoy. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2008 : 19:10:34
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Okay, I want to say ahead of time everything in this post is just pure conjecture and opinion, and should be taken with a grain of salt -
ShadezofDis - supposed you worked for a company, and that company produced several product-lines. One of the lines is their 'premier product', and out-sells and out-shines all others (not just in terms of company-produced products, but also in officially licensed 3rd party products, like novels, games, posters, toys, etc...)
Suppose you liked another product line, one which is also doing well, but is not being licensed out as much so it doesn't 'shine' the way you think it should. Sure, a few books were written about the product, but nothing in comparison to that certain other line, which is starting to get under your skin.
Now, somehow, through the magic of corporate politics, you've been put in charge of the line you dislike, rather then the one you enjoy. At first you're like "What do I do now? I know NOTHING about this product!"
Then an idea hits you - one that you think will benefit the company in the long run. What if... you found a way to consolidate all the lines? What if you figured out - on paper - that by producing a single line of products that appealed to EVERY customer, you would save the company a fortune and increase profits for the Shareholders! Now, you would do that, correct? After all, you're a company man, and it would benefit the comapny... not only would you look like a hero to them, but you'd be able to manipulate things in such a way that the product you feel should be pre-eminent will be. You'd be killing two birds with one stone, right? Why wouldn't anyone NOT do that, when it seems (to you) that everyone would benefit by it?
The only problem you face is convincing the 'rabid fans' of that 'other' product line that it is no good, and that they should all switch....
You see the picture I'm painting here? I'm not saying it happened that way. I'm not even saying it happend on purpose that way - a lot of this could have just been done subconciously, or with the company's "best interests at heart".
Now some of you probably think I'm chasing shadows where there are none, and you are probably right, but I ask you this one question...
How the Hell did a bunch of VERY talented men allow the FRCG to be published as-is? Even pro-4e people are shaking their heads...
Something 'weird' had to have happened behind the scenes, and it could be as simple as too few people all trying to do a hundred things at once. I just find it hard to believe that a large group of people looked at that book before it went to print and said "Wow! This is great stuff!"
Something VERY important was lost along the way.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 Aug 2008 19:12:23 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3248 Posts |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2008 : 23:39:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Chataro
If a novel or a series of novels was wrote to explain how this happened or how that happened, would we mind as much?
Well, we have had a novel series explaining to those interested the demise of the drow pantheon of Faerūn. And while the books as such are written in a really good quality - something you have come to expect in recent years - the lore that was presented sent just about anyone who cared for those deities into orbit.
Mind you, it was one of the worse kept secrets that Lolth would stay on, but Ghaunadaur - being a non-entity in the Realms before being raised to Greater God status? While those who shared the most interest amongst novel-readers and gamers alike, i.e. Eilistraee and Vhaeraun, getting the shortest of straws? Not to mention Kiaransalee, who is essentially kicked out without getting a decent look or recognition?
Well ... no. I don't think that more novels explaining these changes will qualm or apease the anger that oozes out of any FR board I know of. BTW, the The Haunted Lands series is a book about the Spellplague and the changes in Thay ... and I'd bet my bottom Euro that some novelization of the events in Vaasa will see the light of day in the not too distant future as well. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gęš a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 10:56:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Chataro
Was the changes annoying us or was it the changes that seems to happen without any big touch on? Khelben died in a blaze of glory. SYlune died fighting dragons invading shadowdale. but it seems like for 4e, lots of big changes are happening without any elaboration from the planners.
If a novel or a series of novels was wrote to explain how this happened or how that happened, would we mind as much?
I disliked the novels that we got explaining the demise of the drow deities. They weren't well written in my opinion and the changes they introduced didn't tally with my understanding of game logic or my impression of how deities should act. Ultimately, I threw out the introduced ideas along with the book that I bought. After reading the first book I was not sufficiently enticed to continue buying the remaining two. I did read the preview to the second and found it repulsive.
To answer your questions I think any books detailing these major changes would create more questions and inconsistencies. Many of us just won't agree with them. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
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Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
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Edited by - Kiaransalyn on 22 Aug 2008 10:57:34 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2008 : 16:56:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Chataro
If a novel or a series of novels was wrote to explain how this happened or how that happened, would we mind as much?
Whether I mind or not depends on whether or not I think the change grew "organically" out of the setting or was done to fit some out-of-setting agenda. Most of the recent changes (including changes that occured before 4E was even announced) feel like the latter to me. Just because a change happens in a novel doesn't mean it couldn't feel "wrong" to me.
That's probably the simplest answer I could give you. Overall it's really a personal matter--different people will give you different answers. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 25 Aug 2008 17:02:40 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2008 : 17:03:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
I am not that bothered, as canon means little to me, but I would definitely say the changes. I don't care much about the reason if I don't like the results in the first place.
Yes, I have to agree with this too. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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I was just thinking about 4ed......
