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Adlon
Acolyte
4 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 10:36:19
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Yes, I know... great if you wanted this global exchange in the first place....If Ed HAD to write about how all the gods are dead, say in 5e someday, Waterdeep blew up, the Dales are now a full Netherese barony, and Manshoon's 88th clone runs the Harpers, I'm quite sure it would feel like Ed....sound like Ed.....
But wouldn't feel like Ed relating to the FR that I adopted years ago.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 15:23:50
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I recently got the FRCG myself -- from eBay; I wasn't paying full price for it or given my money to WotC. I got it because I've got to see what it is for myself, and because I hate the idea of missing anything...
But here's the rub. For the last few years, whenever a new FR product came out, I couldn't wait to get my hands on it and read it. I often left work during my lunch break to get a book, even knowing I'd not be able to flip thru it for longer than 5 minutes before having to work. And then, when I got home, flipping thru it in detail was the first priority.
I got the FRCG in a couple days ago. It took me several hours before I even opened it up -- and some of that time was spent reading a game book for another company. Another part of it was spent playing Lego Indiana Jones...
So I flipped thru it, read a section or two, and that was it. I've not opened it since then. I'm actually more interested in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting, which I also got from eBay, and which I'm eagerly awaiting the arrival of.
WotC has turned one of their most dedicated fans into someone who barely cares. What does that say about their actions?
One of the few bits I did read was about Manshoon. Not only was there a retcon in there (Manshoon's 40+ clones that woke up and started the Manshoon Wars were retconned down to "a dozen or more"), but now there's only one Manshoon -- Orbakh. Apparently, two someones who had survived more than a century thru use of the stasis clone spell decided to not use it anymore.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 15:59:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm actually more interested in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting, which I also got from eBay, and which I'm eagerly awaiting the arrival of.
When you get it, please, share your thoughts with us. Since I am eagerly awaiting my copy, too, and you will receive yours earlier, I am desperately needing something to read about in the time the parcel travels across the great pond.  |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
Edited by - Ayunken-vanzan on 31 Aug 2008 16:00:10 |
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StarBog
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 16:28:01
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Ironically, I've just returned from Gencon UK, and there, the Shattered Realms Setting appeared to have sold like hotcakes.
I flicked through it on a stall on the first day of the Con, and like WR, nothing jumped out at me. So I picked up another copy of the 3.x FRCS instead ;-) |
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Kes_Alanadel
Learned Scribe
USA
326 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 17:04:44
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Imagine walking into a restaraunt to find a buffet of prime rib, salmon, lobster, chicken marsala, etc., lots of different and interesting salads and side dishes plus a dessert bar that blows your mind. The price may seem a bit high, but hey, you can eat as much as you want.
Then a couple years later, you go back to that same restaraunt to find that the buffet is filled with bland, colorless pudding looking stuff. You ask your wait, 'Where is the prime, chicken, and the other things you had last time?' They point to one of the pans of stuff, and tells you that is prime rib, and next to it is the lobster. Then they want you to pay the same price as the first time you were in.
To me, the former is the 1e grey box, and the 3e FRCS, while the latter is the 4e FRCG.  *Shrug*
Yes, I cook 40+ hours a week, so y'all got a food comaprison, lol. 
~Kes |
Ack! I seem to have too much blood in my coffee stream!
When did 'common sense' cease to be common? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 17:38:37
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I think it is selling for the same reason that books about serial killers sell - morbid curiousity.
I was going to start another thread for this, but if the mods don't mind, I'd like to extend the discussion here a wee-bit...
What purpose does Returned Abeir serve, exactly? 
Honestly, I can see absolutely NO reason for its existance in the FRCG. The other main areas - kara-Tur and Zakhara - warrant just a brief mention. If this book had a limited page count, then why was an entirely new area introduced? Most people will never us it, and of the ones that do, they will probably be running a Returned Abeir campaign, using it like a seperate setting.
So why is it in the FRCG? In the past, other settings warranted their own boxes/guides. Was this a proposed setting by someone, and shoe-horning it into FR was some sort of compromise?
It just seems like they wasted precious word-count including something that should have gotten its own seperate book. I doubt very few people who play in the Heartlands will ever step foot on Returned Abeir, and vice-versa.
If they wanted to use it to introduce new races - like the Dragonbornm - I could understand it; but there is NOTHING on Returned Abeir that you can't find somewhere else in Faerûn. In fact, its riddled with redundancy!
It almost appears as if one of the designers snuck his own campaign world into FR.... and to what purpose?
I would like some of the designers/authors to explain to me EXACTLY why Returned Abeir exists, and in what way does it increase fan-enjoyment of the Realms? As far as I can tell, its just another useless continent, much like it's predecessor, that 99.9% of the people will never use.
BTW, this has NOTHING at all to do with weather it is a good or bad... I just can't figure out why it's even there, especially when those pages could have been filled with material most people could use. 
I honestly believe the book would have been a far better product without Returned Abeir, and with a lttle more Faerûn detail instead. It just seems like they attempted to accomplish too much with this single tome, and instead accomplished very little of use. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Sep 2008 06:06:06 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 18:48:36
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Returned Abeir is there to give more room in the playground. Many new players, not knowing of its new-to-the-Realms status, will be happy to check it out. And I think some small number of the older fans -- particularly those who never liked Maztica -- will also check it out.
As for redundancy, your argument could be used for any two spots in the Heartlands -- why have Waterdeep when we have Silverymoon? Why have Baldur's Gate when we have Calimport? I'm not saying either of those places is superfluous; far from it. I'm just saying that having common features between different areas is not, to me, sufficient cause to be unhappy with one of those areas.
And it couldn't be in its own book, considering that the current directive is to keep a small number of gamebooks for each setting. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 18:59:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly RupertWotC has turned one of their most dedicated fans into someone who barely cares. What does that say about their actions?
Actually, that was your choice to decide to "barely care" about the Realms.
WotC didn't make you do anything.
Don't question them, question yourself.
quote:
Originally posted by MarkustayWhat purpose does Returned Abeir serve, exactly?
Returned Abeir suffers in that it isn't on the main poster map. There isn’t even a note with an arrow on the left/west side of the poster map to show in what direction it is west of the Trackless Sea.
It also is a place where organized worship of deities is a new thing. Elves and Eladrin are rarities there. These aren’t exactly conducive to gaming in returned Abeir (but they can be helped).
One positive of Returned Abeir is that there is no other lore about the place. No hint of links to Faerûn or the Forgotten Realms beyond events that happened an untold number of years ago. From one point of view, it’s ‘unpolluted’ by prior setting lore. So DMs are free to have at it.
Returned Abeir lends itself well to campaigns centered around transition and the conflict such will lead to.
DMs can run campaigns that focus on fledgling (player character) priests who try to build worship and the faith of certain aligned Realms deities in the lands of Returned Abeir. This can lead to all kinds of conflict with the established power groups that are naturally wary of the influence of organized faith.
It also can work well as the means to sprinkle in new foes and plots in regular Faerûnian based campaigns.
Faerûn is filled with countless graveyards and undead. Naturally the Eminence of Araunt will find its way to the mainland. Likewise agents of the many power groups and nations of Returned Abeir will be sent forth to Faerûn proper for trade and to learn about the new lands that surround Returned Abeir. (I wouldn’t be surprised if it was sailors from Lylorn who first discovered the Faerûnian mainland.)
Certainly the same can be said for Faerûn’s denizens. DMs can set up their characters as agents from Waterdeep, Baldur’s Gate and so on and have them set sail to Returned Abeir to learn as much as they can about the place. From that point a DM can basically decide what flavor of adventures he wants to run and then pick a Returned Abeir location to suit.
So what purpose does Returned Abeir serve? I think it serves to allow DMs to start with something new in the Realms. Or they can add something new to something old and mix it up for a good FR game. |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
Edited by - Sanishiver on 31 Aug 2008 19:01:36 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 19:39:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
The "Returned Abeir" chapter has more "Ed Greenwood" feel than anything in the 3E FRCS.
Having looked through the book a bit, I can agree with this. If I used those parts, I wouldn't call it "Returned Abeir", though.
That said, if I buy this book at all, it will be bought second-hand. For the most part the new Realms just doesn't work for me. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 31 Aug 2008 19:40:55 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 19:43:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
WotC has turned one of their most dedicated fans into someone who barely cares. What does that say about their actions?
It's funny, yesterday I went into the bookstore to see what books they had about Costa Rica (I'm currently thinking about traveling there).
I did not even think about checking to see if the FRCG was there. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 20:10:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly RupertWotC has turned one of their most dedicated fans into someone who barely cares. What does that say about their actions?
Actually, that was your choice to decide to "barely care" about the Realms.
WotC didn't make you do anything.
Don't question them, question yourself.
They didn't? They turned a setting I loved into something I could barely recognize. Why should I question myself? My likes and dislikes haven't changed.
Is it really necessary to attack every person who dislikes the Shattered Realms? I just got done explaining something about the book without attacking it, stating some of the same things you did. Attacking me for having an opinion was rather unwarranted.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 20:37:30
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| Likewise, I like Ed's new material and other Realms work in tune with it as much as I ever did. Certainly Wizards, not Wooly or I, is the one making decisions here. My own disenfranchisement from the published Realms was a matter of attrition. I have and will question Wizards, notwithstanding Sanishiver's wont for telling people what to do. |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 20:39:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
One of the few bits I did read was about Manshoon. Not only was there a retcon in there (Manshoon's 40+ clones that woke up and started the Manshoon Wars were retconned down to "a dozen or more"), but now there's only one Manshoon -- Orbakh. Apparently, two someones who had survived more than a century thru use of the stasis clone spell decided to not use it anymore.
Wasn't that particular clone called *Orlak* in 2E/3E, and Orbakh was the name of some ancient Red Wizard? |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 21:37:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
One of the few bits I did read was about Manshoon. Not only was there a retcon in there (Manshoon's 40+ clones that woke up and started the Manshoon Wars were retconned down to "a dozen or more"), but now there's only one Manshoon -- Orbakh. Apparently, two someones who had survived more than a century thru use of the stasis clone spell decided to not use it anymore.
Wasn't that particular clone called *Orlak* in 2E/3E, and Orbakh was the name of some ancient Red Wizard?
In 2E, he was Orlak. The 3rd edition FRCS, I believe, was the first source to call him Orbakh. The name change was never explained. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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StarBog
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 22:12:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
In 2E, he was Orlak. The 3rd edition FRCS, I believe, was the first source to call him Orbakh. The name change was never explained.
Hmmm... a vampire called Orlak.
Could be the similarity to this chap?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Count_Orlok
Best,
SB. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 22:17:06
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quote:
Originally posted by StarBog
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
In 2E, he was Orlak. The 3rd edition FRCS, I believe, was the first source to call him Orbakh. The name change was never explained.
Hmmm... a vampire called Orlak.
Could be the similarity to this chap?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Count_Orlok
Best,
SB.
It's possible, but as I'm not one of the involved designers, it could have been nothing more than one of those odd name changes. There have been at least a couple of cases of names changing by a single letter or two. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ahwe Yahzhe
Acolyte
Iraq
36 Posts |
Posted - 31 Aug 2008 : 22:59:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Asche
Somewhat dissatisfied.
Primarily because its just a poor product in terms of content. Layout, Artwork, the Map and some stuff is actually very good, but the descriptive text itself is just plain poor in comparison to the 3ed one.
Many passages are word-for-word exact copies from the same entry in the 3ed, the large print and spacing are like a poor 5th graders attempt to cover up he hasnt actually written as many pages as he was asked to, and now stretches them through bad layout.
EXTREMELY DISSATISFIED, for the same reason as above. The sheer lack of content is stunning. As noted above, there is a lot of white space on those pages, where they could have added a city here, a location there, even if it was a copy/paste from 1/2/3e of something that hasn't been Spellplagued. Sorry, but I want some substance to my world so I can create adventures. Maybe some WotC designers and writers were feeling "crowded" in the old FR (see the new Design & Development article on the Wizards site,) but all that lore is grist for my adventures.
The only good part of this is that the lack of actual content allows me to go back to my 1/2/3e sourcebooks for inspiration, throw in a spellscarred dragonborn and some earthmotes, and I've got a 4e FR campaign.
EXTREMELY DISSATISFIED. Really, can I get an apology for somebody at WotC?
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 04:01:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Is it really necessary to attack every person who dislikes the Shattered Realms?
If I did that, this place would have half-burned up and Sage/Alaundo would have whipped out the Banhammer.
But they haven’t.
So let's keep the hyperbole to a minimum, hey.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly RupertI just got done explaining something about the book without attacking it,
You don't consider this phrase: "What does that say about them" (emphasis mine) an attack?
I learned to agree to disagree with Faraer a long time ago, because he at least grounds his opinions and arguments in facts and a strong understanding of the framework of the Realms as it was first conceived.
Whereas some people make it personal. As though WotC really had the time and money to think hard about what the dedicated Wooley Rupert's of the world thought just so they could make sure you and those who shared your opinions felt excluded to the point of personal offense.
This place is better than that. It’s smarter than that.
I understand you don’t like the changes. But there are ways to express that sentiment without going after WotC and the people who did the work you find so appalling.
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09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 04:14:36
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| wow, that was not good |
Edited by - scererar on 01 Sep 2008 04:15:03 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31777 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 04:19:19
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Wooly, Sanshiver... I suggest you both take this side-discussion to PMs. I've already had several complaints from a number of concerned scribes about the tone of this scroll. I don't want to be forced to seal it.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 01 Sep 2008 04:20:56 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 04:21:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Is it really necessary to attack every person who dislikes the Shattered Realms?
If I did that, this place would have half-burned up and Sage/Alaundo would have whipped out the Banhammer.
But they haven’t.
So let's keep the hyperbole to a minimum, hey.
Sure, as soon as you stop attacking people who disagree with you.
quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly RupertI just got done explaining something about the book without attacking it,
You don't consider this phrase: "What does that say about them" (emphasis mine) an attack?
I learned to agree to disagree with Faraer a long time ago, because he at least grounds his opinions and arguments in facts and a strong understanding of the framework of the Realms as it was first conceived.
Whereas some people make it personal. As though WotC really had the time and money to think hard about what the dedicated Wooley Rupert's of the world thought just so they could make sure you and those who shared your opinions felt excluded to the point of personal offense.
This place is better than that. It’s smarter than that.
I understand you don’t like the changes. But there are ways to express that sentiment without going after WotC and the people who did the work you find so appalling.
First, I was referring to my 18:48:36 post on 31 Aug 2008. Second, I never stated or even implied that WotC was making a personal attack on myself. Third, this topic is specifically asking people their opinion. I stated my opinion, which is based on the actions of the design team -- as I clearly stated. I did attack anyone. Fourth, we understand that you really like the changes. Is it really necessary for you to come valiantly riding to WotC's defense any time someone else says they don't like it? As you said, this place is better than that.
I don't care if anyone's opinion is for or against the changes. I just get sick of seeing people attacked for their opinions. I think that trend is far more prevalent -- and disturbing -- than the trend of people being unhappy with the new version of the setting. The dissenters are not turning this into an unfriendly place; that's the result of people not respecting each other's opinions. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Sep 2008 : 06:24:23
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I really should mind my own busines, buuut.....
quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
Whereas some people make it personal. As though WotC really had the time and money to think hard about what the dedicated Wooley Rupert's of the world thought just so they could make sure you and those who shared your opinions felt excluded to the point of personal offense.
Thats the problem.
They didn't give a rat's arse about what ALL of us 'Wooly Ruperts' thought. They did whatever they wanted to do, and the fans be damned.
There is no way in the world that you or any WotC employee could possibly convince me that they thought the existing fanbase was going to love this. I happen to believe the designers are a group of highly intelligent men, so they obviously knew the outcome and did it anyway.
So if you're wondering why we take it personal, maybe its becuse the people who'd shelled-out a $1000+ on their products, and quite willing to spend at least another $1000, were shown absolutely NO loyalty by the people who's salaries we've been paying (with our purchases). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 01 Sep 2008 06:26:17 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31777 Posts |
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How do you feel about the 4e FRCG?
Topic Locked
