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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Aug 2008 : 19:54:58
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What?
Not a fan of reptilian Worgs? 
And the Lamia, while cool, leaves me shaking my head as to why they didn't just think of a name for this new creature. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2008 : 20:10:37
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| I had actually showed the picture of the Worgs to my friends when it was first released on the site, asking them to guess what "traditional fantasy creature" it was. The first guess was a cockatrice because of the chicken legs... |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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entreri00
Acolyte
USA
3 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2008 : 21:31:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Ranak
I went to the store with every intention of buying it. The quality of the writing appeared to be so low that I could not bring myself to pay for it (no I did not lift it from the store, I left it on the shelf). The book is now written for 10 year old.
The little details that made the Realms so interesting are all gone. The book is designed to give as little information as possible on all subjects. I believe they were aiming to give DMs maximum leeway in running the Realms, but ended up making a darn boring book to read, and I mean boring!
I know that some of these details are to be forthcoming in articles on DND Insider, but I for one would rather have at least some flavor in the Campaign Guide itself.
I think I will continue to selectively read the novels, but I have no intention of purchasing the FR game books.
... and this is coming from someone who has been a defender of 4ed.
That's what I'm seeing too. I really only used the old campaign guides as fun reference guides for the novels and games.
Where are the characters? stats? This place seems empty in addition to the unnecessary apocalypse and time travel. That's what I get for buying it sight unseen from Amazon. I thought I could rely on 3 previous editions as a guide to the style of book. WRONG. This fall as little short of what I'd prefer. |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 13:11:07
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At GenCon Bruce Cordell did mention that one of the goals of 4.0, including FR, was to usher in newer players and to help increase the base. While this is always a risk in business, I cannot fully hang them for the layout. Unfortunately, we are an older breed of players and at some point have to come to terms with the fact that things will be changed. Personally, I was miffed with some of the canon changes to some of the gods but that is a part of the experience too. Maybe I am too optimistic ;)
Anyways, the younger generations are influenced much differently than many of us were when we started to read FR or play D&D. I believe WoTC is trying to capitalize on this trend and make the game more appealing to these newer crowds.
In the end no one wants to see the world changed from what we grew to love, but we have to see changes in order to let the game and world progress. We don't honestly want to horde the old world to ourselves, right? I very much enjoyed seeing a 13 year-old come up to an improve FR session I ran in the lobby of our hotel at GenCon. He was genuinely interested and we had the opportunity to show him some of the new D&D. I think that was important for me to experience when referencing the changing times.
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 13:59:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Rustybeard
At GenCon Bruce Cordell did mention that one of the goals of 4.0, including FR, was to usher in newer players and to help increase the base.
I think most here would applaud trying to attract new players. However, I don't think many here think that the base will be increased. It feels like a replacement of older players with newer players.
quote:
Originally posted by Rustybeard
While this is always a risk in business, I cannot fully hang them for the layout. Unfortunately, we are an older breed of players and at some point have to come to terms with the fact that things will be changed. Personally, I was miffed with some of the canon changes to some of the gods but that is a part of the experience too. Maybe I am too optimistic ;)
I think we all approve of progress but not change for change's sake.
quote:
Originally posted by Rustybeard
Anyways, the younger generations are influenced much differently than many of us were when we started to read FR or play D&D. I believe WoTC is trying to capitalize on this trend and make the game more appealing to these newer crowds.
Then why not create a new setting or have a learner setting based in another part of Faerun. I've been mulling over some of the issues related to $E and FR for a while now wondering what I would have done. I think I would have kept FR fairly unchanged and called it a mature players setting. I might have dumbed down Eberron for younger players (depending on what the players of Eberron thought) or created a new setting based on either of these two settings, which would allow players to 'ramp up' when they wanted.
quote:
Originally posted by Rustybeard
We don't honestly want to horde the old world to ourselves, right? I very much enjoyed seeing a 13 year-old come up to an improve FR session I ran in the lobby of our hotel at GenCon. He was genuinely interested and we had the opportunity to show him some of the new D&D. I think that was important for me to experience when referencing the changing times.
Sharing the setting is great but this isn't what has happened. We've all got a new setting.
I agree with you that introducing youngsters to a new field of fun or knowledge is very rewarding. I also agree that we shouldn't be elitist or shut them out. But should we patronise them? Should we say "This world is too complex for your young minds"?
 <- Just so you know I'm responding to your comments and don't wish to appear to be aggressive towards you. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 14:05:06
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| You do bring up excellent points and ones that I had not considered. I guess in the end, for me, I love the rich storylines of the FR too much to shun it all together because of the changes. Trust me, I have plenty of "Man that sucks" going on in my head when I think about it :D |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 14:15:27
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| I don't think that anyone here is going to shun FR, even with all the changes made. Those of us that will continue playing it outside 4E will take what lore there is and, much like before, take what we want and not worry about the rest. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Thalos_Milathriel
Acolyte
USA
33 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 15:51:48
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Hello all. I’m a long time reader of Candle Keep, but this is my first post!
First some background. I’ve been digging D&D since 1979 when a family friend introduced me to it while we were on vacation. I still have my very first character sheet… a human assassin named Boromir (I was only 10, cut me some slack). Over the years I collected all the 1st edition rulebooks even though I rarely got the opportunity to play, just for the joy of discovering new fantastic places and beasties. Forgotten Realms hooked me hard when I began reading the novels after a long break from the D&D scene, and since then I’ve caught up in my collecting picking up most all the 2nd and 3rd edition rulebooks, a first edition D&D white box set and almost every single Realms based novel. I even bought a Dungeons & Dragons pinball machine, the ultimate D&D collectible!
So what can we discern from this? I love D&D, I love The Realms and I spend a fair amount of money on things that I love.
I purchased the new Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide despite all the reservations I had and all the negative reviews simply because I love the Realms too much to give up on her without first trying to reconcile.
I’ve read through about half of the book and here are my observations thus far:
Name Changes - If they removed the phrase “formerly known as” from this book they could have saved on printing costs or had room for more detail. Some name changes make sense like the city of Heliogabalus getting shortened to Helgabal. It’s not uncommon for things like this to occur in real life, so it makes sense and the original name always sounded too much like a prescription drug to me. On the other hand why the Rawlinswood would be changed to Dunwood is not explained and makes no sense at all.
Chapter One Loudwater - WTF? When I was reading I had to check the page numbers, because this seemed like a printing error. The “jump in and play” part would certainly come AFTER we’d gotten to know the world we were going to play in right? The maps are ridiculously small and useless. What’s up with the characters, it’s like they didn’t even try to make it realistic; “..he’s overly fond of the phrase ‘by Mystra’s lost spell’”? I mean, if you have waste a sentence making an excuse for your weak character perhaps you should maybe spend an extra hour or two coming up with a more genuine personality for them? I’m just sayin’.
Glossary & Terms – Good stuff. This is the best two pages in the book! Thanks Ed, more please.
Spellplague - Not a bad idea I suppose, but I think they went way overboard with the change thing. This should have been a short term crisis for Faerûn like The Year Of Rogue Dragons with some interesting novels and such to tie in and then things could go back to pretty much normal.
Pantheon Changes - No more Eilistraee? No more Sehanine Moonbow? Aillesel Seldarie! Taking so many of the unique gods out of Faerûn is like trying to make spaghetti without garlic, oregano and basil. Sure it still looks right, but all the flavor is missing and nobody will come back for a second helping!
Returned Abeir – This should have been an expansion book for Realms characters heading across the sea. Using this planetary collision gimmick as a device to wantonly reshuffle the map and races of Faerûn is lame. Too much rich detail was lost and what was gained doesn’t have the Realms flavor… so far. Maybe the inevitable Abeir based novels will change this?
Earthmotes - Cool idea for one really weird place perhaps, but all over the world? Faerûn is becoming less and less like the classical high fantasy setting we all came looking for, and more like some cheap knock off with too many gizmos.
Eladrin - You take away all the richness of the various elven subraces, societies and pantheon and we get this? Why? Does anybody else get the impression they trying to start phasing out the word “elf”, or is it just me?
Beastlands – Cool idea in general, and I like the way Salvatore handled the rise of the orc kingdoms in his books, but do we really need a kingdom ruled by Kenkus? Faerûn was starting to really mature in the last edition and I got the feeling the Salvatore books or the Last Mythal series could have been made into movies or a TV series, but a lot of this new stuff seems really silly in comparison.
Elminster Retired? – Major bummer. At least Ed saved him from some humiliating fate.
I still have half of the book to read, so hopefully some really awesome stuff will shine through. So far it’s pretty lame overall though.
Whoever it was at WOTC that decided to wreck the Fogotten Realms needs to be fired. I will dispatch Boromir the assassin very soon to hunt down this rogue and put him to the sword.
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questing gm
Master of Realmslore
Malaysia
1452 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 17:05:32
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| Maybe if we could let the new players come in 4E which is easier to digest and once they're settled in. We start telling them how fun it was 100 years ago... |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 17:14:30
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Actually, the fix is right there in 4E itself. Your characters from pre-spellplague can easily survive to their old age!
There are NO penalties for aging in the new edition. So, your 95 year old human fighter is just as spry as your 19 year old human fighter.
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I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 17:21:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Actually, the fix is right there in 4E itself. Your characters from pre-spellplague can easily survive to their old age!
There are NO penalties for aging in the new edition. So, your 95 year old human fighter is just as spry as your 19 year old human fighter.
But it is a sorrowful, distressing world he would live in, so maybe dying early would be a much more merciful fate ...  |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 17:39:17
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You guys are funny.
Thalos_Milathriel - Amazing First Post! Well Done!
Thank You for your infonmative review thus far - I look forward to future posts and information from you.
To quote a Jeff Goldblum line from Jurassic Park -
"They were so busy knowing they could, that they didn't stop to think if they should..."
4e appears to be the culmination of every idea - good AND bad - that went through the minds of several different men, and then was pasted together without rhyme or reason. They spent so much effort into quantity, that they forgot all about quality.
People would much prefer one GOOD article about something, then a half-dozen mediocre ones that don't really tell them anything. The new campaign setting lacks any sort of focus what-so-ever.
And I agree 100%! Returned Abeir should have been in a sepearte expansion book - there is not enough info to make it useful, and all it does is eat-up page count; not to mention most people aren't going to bother with travelling to it in their games. The only way the place becomes functional is if you ran an Abeir campaign, and as I said, there really isn't enough there to do that. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Aug 2008 17:40:57 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 18:44:38
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Heck, if it's anything like it's predecessor (Maztica), it probably won't be seen that much... The designer's definite forgot the first three rules of Real Estate:
1) Location
2) Location
3) Location |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 19:11:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
There are NO penalties for aging in the new edition. So, your 95 year old human fighter is just as spry as your 19 year old human fighter.
That just sounds like male wish fulfilment! |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 19:39:43
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| I guess that explains the hardback covers then. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 20:34:24
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Are you saying 4E was like a lumberjack that just couldn't hack it, and that they should just give it the axe?
We are all so punny today :) |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 20:39:36
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Great, now I've got "I'm a Lumberjack and I'm Okay" running through my head. Which takes on an entirely MORE demented turn when you mix Viagra in...
Errr... what was our topic again? |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
Edited by - Ashe Ravenheart on 22 Aug 2008 20:40:29 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 21:12:22
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Just to bring this back on track...
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Heck, if it's anything like it's predecessor (Maztica), it probably won't be seen that much... The designer's definite forgot the first three rules of Real Estate:
1) Location
2) Location
3) Location
So they actually managed to come up with something worse then Maztica?
Now that DID take a lot of talent LOL.
Here's the thing - from what I gather, this 'returned Abeir' is a place ruled by dragons who kicked the Primordials out years ago.
However, we have another place ruled by dragons in 4e Murghôm. They went with the same flavor in a location right in the main campaign area!
So I ask you, what purpose does Returned Abeir serve? From what I understand, Ed worked on it, but from what little I've seen of the place anything 'Edwardian' has been sucked right out in editting, and its just another dry, boring place on the map.
At least with Maztica, so little was detailed that DMs could just plop down their own stuff there, but this new take is even less useful then that. They detailed just enough so you wouldn't have 'free reign', and way too little to actually use it as intended.
There is one bright side, I suppose. I can no longer honestly say Birthright is the worst official D&D setting ever released. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Aug 2008 01:03:18 |
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Fingal
Seeker
56 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 21:30:54
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I have to agree with other posters. The advent of the Abeir stuff is one of the things I really don't like for a simple reason: Why not keep the Toril stuff separate and simply use Abeir as a new setting for 4E? After all, if you are going to slap huge portions of this world all over Faerun why not just release it as a separate campaign setting? I don't think anyone would have had serious issues with it. They could have had their beginners world and left the Realms alone.
Thalos_Milathriel is correct for all of the points raised. I would like to add something else that occurred to me though: Returned Abier, Reborn Netheril and the Spell-plague. Surely ONE of those changes would have been major enough to add extra spice to the setting but did we really need all of them?
I'll still maintain that the Abolethic Sovereignty stuff is ace although I get the feeling someone was on a full on Lovecraft binge when the came up with it. Nothing wrong with that though, having had a few Lovecraft binges myself over the years. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 22:38:54
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HAHAH. I was thinking that earlier today but I didn't want to be the one to say that song was running through my mind. :)
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
Great, now I've got "I'm a Lumberjack and I'm Okay" running through my head. Which takes on an entirely MORE demented turn when you mix Viagra in...
Errr... what was our topic again?
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For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2008 : 00:03:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I can no longer honestly say Birthright is the worst official D&D setting ever released.
hmmm, can someone remind me who wrote Birthright......
I can't quite remember......
It seems my memory is a shadow of its former self*......
  
Damian
*a bit like the 4E Realms |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
Edited by - crazedventurers on 23 Aug 2008 00:04:11 |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2008 : 00:26:11
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quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
hmmm, can someone remind me who wrote Birthright......
I can't quite remember......
It seems my memory is a shadow of its former self*......
Damian
*a bit like the 4E Realms
I would like to note that RB actually had very little to do with the 4e Realms. The writers were: Bruce R. Cordell, Ed Greenwood (whatever they did not chop out), Chris Sims, and Philip Athans. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2008 : 01:09:58
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In fact, Rich Baker has himself said he thought the addition of the Shadoweave in FR was a bad idea, in retrospect.
And the 4eFR designers did what they always do - they took a bad idea and ran with it.
Rich had little to do with this new setting, and I'm sure he's agonizing over how its going to effect novel sales now.
BTW, anyone who wants a good laugh should check out all the threads over at the WotC boards - people keep posting, asking questions concerning obvious errors in the FRCG (mostly on the map, but quite a few in text).
I'm thinking the Errata will be larger then the book itself. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Aug 2008 18:17:58 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2008 : 01:29:05
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| I still can't wrap my head around those on the WotC boards that are praising the book as exactly what the Realms needed... |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2008 : 01:35:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I still can't wrap my head around those on the WotC boards that are praising the book as exactly what the Realms needed...
You and me both (in addition to many other scribes here) Brother Ashe. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2008 : 01:46:18
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
I would like to note that RB actually had very little to do with the 4e Realms.
I know, but you can argue that the overarching plot of 4E comes from the introduction of the Shadover/Shade/whatever they are called being introduced in 3E.
Interesting to read that Rich now thinks the shadowfolk were a poor choice for the Realms - you can't fault the guy for putting his hand up and saying he might have been/was wrong, or for answering posts over on WoTC and taking the criticism he has with good humour.
Cheers
Damian
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So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2008 : 02:04:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I still can't wrap my head around those on the WotC boards that are praising the book as exactly what the Realms needed...
Obvioulsy, as I'm much too big for you to do that sort of thing with your head.
Sanishiver=4E Realms Fan. |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
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'Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide' -- Discussion
