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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Aug 2008 : 20:42:08
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I am begining to think that The Master of Mischief is a genius. He made a comment here 3rd post in about the Shattered Realms (as he first called the 4E Realms) now being the Shadowed Realms.
I actually think this is the case. What we are seeing with the 4E Realms is not Toril but the Shadow Toril, an echo of what the real world is like. The Shadow Toril cannot exist without the real Toril, in the same way the Shadow Weave cannot exist without the Weave (using Ed's lore on the existence of Shadow Weave), it is an echo of the real thing.
What has happened is not that Abeir has merged in Toril, but that echo's of Toril's landmass has merged into Abeir! So what we are seeing in the newly released FRCG is Abeir (the Shadow Realms) and not Toril (The Forgotten Realms). Which means of course that Toril still exists in fairly fine form (except for a few tweaks required given the shadow world induced planets merging together nonsense).
I now understand what the 4E Realms design team have been doing, writing a campign setting for the Shadow Realms, not the true Realms. You see if you realise this, then the anger at them destroying Toril goes away and you are in a much happier place 
To Hasbro/WoTC: I renounce any IP claims to the Lore above. Please feel free to use this as a retcon when you write up the True Forgotten Realms campaign setting for either 4E, 4.5E, 5E or any other editions post that. I freely give you the rights to use my theory to retcon the 4E Shadow Realms and do a rewrite of Toril's past and future, and not Abeir's as presented in the 4E FRCG.
Cheers
Damian
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So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
Edited by - crazedventurers on 12 Aug 2008 20:58:19
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2008 : 20:47:49
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I actually like that idea... It makes retconning all the 4E stuff pretty easy.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Shottglazz
Acolyte
Canada
49 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2008 : 21:23:00
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| LOL kind of like a dream-sequence for a bad TV show? |
Shottglazz
"Take my love, Take my land, Take me where I cannot stand;
I don't care, I'm still free. You can't take the sky from me." |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2008 : 23:40:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It makes retconning all the 4E stuff pretty easy.
I agree, shall we make a start?
Cheers
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2008 : 00:08:29
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| I vote yes for this plan! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2008 : 00:21:54
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I'd say I like it, but "I'm half-sick of shadows..." |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2008 : 01:09:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Shottglazz
LOL kind of like a dream-sequence for a bad TV show?
Does that mean all we have to do is pinch the Realms hard enough or in the right place and it'll wake up? 
Right... How to phrase that epic spell just so...  |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2008 : 01:12:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Fellshot
quote:
Originally posted by Shottglazz
LOL kind of like a dream-sequence for a bad TV show?
Does that mean all we have to do is pinch the Realms hard enough or in the right place and it'll wake up?
Right... How to phrase that epic spell just so...
Pinch, kick....Bludgeon....Whatever it takes!
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A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Penknight
Senior Scribe
USA
538 Posts |
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imis999
Acolyte
USA
30 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2008 : 03:06:46
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| Didn't Dragonlance already do this? |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2008 : 03:13:57
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| This actually seems like the best way to take it. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2008 : 09:44:53
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| Well, coming to think of it ... it would have been the easiest way for the Wizards to save the good old Realms yet start something completely new which is also called the Realms. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gęš a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2008 : 19:13:21
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| Keep telling yourselves that if it makes you sleep at night, but sooner or later, you will all have to come to the realization to the Realms are gone. |
Edited by - Purple Dragon Knight on 13 Aug 2008 19:13:47 |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2008 : 19:20:48
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
I vote yes for this plan!
Me too! |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Varl
Learned Scribe
USA
284 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2008 : 19:54:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Penknight
quote:
Originally posted by Shottglazz
LOL kind of like a dream-sequence for a bad TV show?
Anyone else having Dallas flashbacks? LOL!!
No, but it does remind me of the cool Star Trek: TNG episode where a wormhole opens up a new reality where the Klingons and Federation are at war with one another. That was a fairly shadowy and dark look into what may be.
If this ends up being the case, great. It'll mean I can still look forward to buying 4e FR lore to convert back to my 2e game, but my dark and shadowy side still has numerous doubts and suspicions that WotC would be that brilliant.  |
I'm on a permanent vacation to the soul. -Tash Sultana |
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AlorinDawn
Learned Scribe
USA
313 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2008 : 20:39:27
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| Wow, that idea rocks! If they used it then they would have to admit they are slaptards...which isn't gonna happen. |
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Ladejarl
Seeker
Norway
55 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2008 : 22:12:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Keep telling yourselves that if it makes you sleep at night, but sooner or later, you will all have to come to the realization to the Realms are gone.
Most of us are into fantasy role playing you know. Besides, the Hamster has caused an excellent idea to spring to life here. If only he was one of the powers that be at WoTC.
Ah well, back to reality... |
"There should be much less violence, and more nudity and kinkiness in the world." |
Edited by - Ladejarl on 13 Aug 2008 22:13:56 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2008 : 22:14:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Ladejarl
Most of us are into fantasy role playing you know. Besides, we do have an excellent idea from the Hamster here. If only he was one of the powers that be at WoTC.
Ah well, back to reality...
Heh, if I was one of the Powers That Be at WotC, we not only would have not had the Sellplague and the timejump, but there would have been some other things that transpired differently during 3E. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2008 : 23:14:00
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| We could always begin a project called the "Classic Realms" and start our own timeline that uses pseudonyms for various Realms people and places... |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2008 : 23:31:03
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
We could always begin a project called the "Classic Realms" and start our own timeline that uses pseudonyms for various Realms people and places...
Like 'Elhamster', perhaps? |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2008 : 23:37:16
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| BTW, I do want to make something clear... While I do really like being called a genius, I only called it the Shadowed Realms in a reference to the fact that now everything seems to be about Shar and shadows. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 13 Aug 2008 23:39:14 |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2008 : 00:33:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Asgetrion
Like 'Elhamster', perhaps?
Lol. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2008 : 00:43:21
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Folks, I know some of you are disgruntled with certain published details about the 4e Realms. But, really, some of the words that are occassionally used to describe WotC both in this scroll and in a few others are quite unnecessary. Let's try to keep things civil, eh?
quote:
Originally posted by Varl
No, but it does remind me of the cool Star Trek: TNG episode where a wormhole opens up a new reality where the Klingons and Federation are at war with one another. That was a fairly shadowy and dark look into what may be.
You mean Yesterday's Enterprise?
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Penknight
Senior Scribe
USA
538 Posts |
Posted - 14 Aug 2008 : 18:38:25
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Folks, I know some of you are disgruntled with certain published details about the 4e Realms. But, really, some of the words that are occassionally used to describe WotC both in this scroll and in a few others are quite unnecessary. Let's try to keep things civil, eh?
quote:
Originally posted by Varl
No, but it does remind me of the cool Star Trek: TNG episode where a wormhole opens up a new reality where the Klingons and Federation are at war with one another. That was a fairly shadowy and dark look into what may be.
You mean Yesterday's Enterprise?
That's the one! Actually, it was a rather interesting episode when you think about it. Always been a Star Trek fan since I was small, watching reruns with my dad.
Sorry for breaking off topic, guys. |
Telethian Phoenix
Pathfinder Reference Document |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2008 : 00:18:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Keep telling yourselves that if it makes you sleep at night, but sooner or later, you will all have to come to the realization to the Realms are gone.
Well, the more I read and hear on the Realms post Spellplague, the less these Realms strike a cord with me. It is, essentially, much the same with Eberron. I have settled down with the Realms and no other setting that looks only different in name could draw me away from them. Hence, after a few glances, I simply left Eberron to the Eberronians. That very same feeling and attitude is about to take me over when I read 4E Realms stuff. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gęš a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerūn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 15 Aug 2008 00:19:29 |
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tauster
Senior Scribe
Germany
399 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2008 : 10:25:58
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Even if we'd use the idea that the Shadowed Realms are a parallel or alternate world of Toril: What about the 100 year timejump? Shouldn't time be the same in both worlds? Traveling from "original Toril, say, 1380* DR", to "Shadowed Toril, 1380 DR" would be hard to DM because the 4e realms skipped that time period.
* I tried to chose a date after the end of the 3.x Realms and before the start of the *ahem* "new and improved 4e Realms", but since I'm not familiar with the 4e FR timeline, I might be wrong with 1380 DR.
I think the idea isn't bad, but if we don't have more information about what happened in those 100 years (especially in the late 1300's), that scenario isn't going to be of much use, imho. |
Edited by - tauster on 15 Aug 2008 10:28:18 |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 09:55:43
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quote:
Originally posted by imis999
Didn't Dragonlance already do this?
I think they did. Didn't it also involve a Dark Queen.
(If I had my source-books with me I could find the references. Maybe tonight.) |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Dewaint
Learned Scribe
Germany
148 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2008 : 12:04:32
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quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
What has happened is not that Abeir has merged in Toril, but that echo's of Toril's landmass has merged into Abeir! So what we are seeing in the newly released FRCG is Abeir (the Shadow Realms) and not Toril (The Forgotten Realms). Which means of course that Toril still exists in fairly fine form (except for a few tweaks required given the shadow world induced planets merging together nonsense).
I now understand what the 4E Realms design team have been doing, writing a campign setting for the Shadow Realms, not the true Realms. You see if you realise this, then the anger at them destroying Toril goes away and you are in a much happier place
hu? Hey! great! You made a good point thus offering completely new ways of interpretation !
Well, as my players are messing things around 1369dr I'll merge something like this: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10350 and elaborate the 100 year gap slowly as more lore will be published and discussed here at Candlekeep.
I guess to some extend the 100 years are covered in the $E FRCG and maybe even in the upcoming players guide; not to mention articles published on the WoTC.
So, basicaly getting the lore also usable for the no-spellplague-ever-happened "True Realms", throwing away all the "Shattered Realms" stuff 
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Edited by - Dewaint on 23 Aug 2008 12:06:26 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2008 : 01:07:06
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Couple of things - Yesterday's Enterprise was one of my favorite episodes - alongside the one with hindreds of alternate Enterprises all appearing at once, because Worf was in the wrong Quantum reality. The one Enterprise that came from a universe where the Borg won was great! Ryker had to kill himself.
I'm not good at remembering the names of episodes, though (but I do so love my 'alternate realities').
Ahem - on topic - awhile back (at WotC) we had a 'Bizarro Realms' thread where we postulated all sorts of crazy stuff happening (like Larloch taking Szass Tam as his significant other). Anway, that was supposed to be a What If? type ot alternate Toril.
Then the 4e info starting coming down the pipe, and we realized our crazy version had NOTHING on the new official one. 
Anyway, it was a fun read, and its great to think about all the pivotal points in realms history and contemplate what the world would be like if things turned out different.
Another interesting and related thought is inspired by another poster from the WotC forums - someone brought up the old Hollow World setting, and suggested that maybe Abeir came from there (INSIDE Toril). At first I found it funny, but then I relized that that wasn't a half bad idea! Several of the offical accessories/realms for that setting covered Aztec (Maztica) and Egyptian (Mulhorand) flavored cultures. Now if those are missing from FR now, and were transplanted to Abeir, it would be a fairly simple thing to use those old modules to flesh-out an 'inner earth' scenario for Abeir. I mean, the cultures are already perfect.
And the idea that that both "worlds" would share the same Underdark is just too deliciously evil.
And lastly, I haven't seen this ANYWHERE else, so I think I may be the first to have caught it. This theory about about a 'Shadow Toril' may be a bit far-fetched, but I did notice something odd in the FRCG text that I think is worth pointing out -
There's a hint of second, 'hidden' moon! 
A long time ago (last year?)I was talking in yet another WotC thread about how it would make sense if there is a pitch-black moon belonging to Shar in Toril's orbit. After all, both Chauntea and Selune have 'heavenly bodies' to represent them, so why wouldn't Shar, being a fellow primordial FR god, have one as well? As Selune's opposite, it would make perfect sense that she would have a Black moon, to offset Selune's Shining one.
Then I came across this in the FRCG this morning (pg. 86) -
quote:
The Inner Sea was once four separate bodies of water until the batrachi realm of Kolophoon was devastated nearly 33,000 years ago. Scholars generally hold that a chunk of Torils second moon struck Faerūn at that time.
Accent, Mine. I looked around elsewhere, and noted that the description of the other planets in the Sea of Night excerpt (I think it was a sidebar) - they were referred to as 'visible planets'.
Weird, huh? It seems that there was/is a second moon, as I speculated all those months ago, and that perhaps the planets we know of aren't the only one out there.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Aug 2008 01:20:30 |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2008 : 07:48:58
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| Wasn't the second moon that one that got destroyed, building the Tears of Selune in the process? |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links 2ed Downloads |
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The Shadow Realms (Wooly Rupert is a Genius!)
