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Zaskar24
Acolyte
USA
13 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Aug 2008 : 01:44:20
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I am looking to create a heavy hitting warrior prestige class. It is a 5 level class. I am at a loss currently as to what I should use sa my 5th level special ability.
I am also curious what everyone thinks of the requirements and the special abilities I have come up with. I am also still kicking around saving throws. Will is going to be the weak one, but should both fortitude and reflex be strong or only one? All thoughts, suggestions, and critiques are welcome.
March Warder
Selected from among the many warriors who call the Silver Marches home, march warders are a small but elite group who strive to make the Silver Marches safe for all at the expense of their own comfort. While the Knights in Silver are the most prestigious and well known of warriors that defend the Silver Marches the march warders are the true stalwarts. Not just defending a 50 mile circle around Silvery Moon and travelling forth when needed, but actively hunting the enemies of the Silver Marches where they live before they can harm the people who live there.
Of all the classes that inhabit Faerun the two most likely to become march warders are barbarians and rangers. There are also a relatively high percentage of multi-class barbarian/fighters and ranger/ fighters that excel as march warders due to the amount of feats they get that is them supplemented by the feats that the march warder provides. Rogues that multi-class as fighters are sometimes chosen to be march warders as well though they are fairly rare. Though not as rare as cleric, druid, magic using characters or paladins for assorted reasons.
Hit Dice: d12
Requirements
To qualify to become a march warder, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Alignment: Any non-evil.
Base Attack Bonus: +6
Skills: Balance 2, Climb 4, Listen 4, Move Silently 4, Survival 4
Feats: Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Mobility
The March Warder
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1 +1 First Favored Enemy
2 +2 Fighter bonus feat
3 +3 Favored Improved Critical
4 +4 Fighter bonus feat
5 +5
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Edited by - Zaskar24 on 07 Aug 2008 01:48:18
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GoCeraf
Learned Scribe
147 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2008 : 04:02:34
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Something you may want to ask yourself is "what would make me want this class?" I mean, bonus feats are a bit wasted on prestige classes. In fact, if you look at the later editions of the Star Wars game and even DnD, feats are more prevalent in core classes, while specialized abilities are more so in the prestige classes.
Secondly, I feel as though I could get the same effect simply from having a multi-class ranger fighter. Sure, the feat acquisition is slight accelerated, but I've already had my say on bonus feats and prestige classes.
One thing I happen to really like is the favored improved critical. More so than the normal bonus that ranger get, it shows that you know where the vitals on your special enemy are, and how to exploit them. Excellent choice.
I know it's a popular die for personal classes, but I think that a d12 would be too high for this class, especially given its flavor. You might want to consider dropping it down to a d10 (or even a d8), since it has elements of both fighters and rangers. I'd need to know more, like how many skills points it gets, what the class skills are, and whether it gets any sorts of armor proficiency.
As far as a level 5 ability, something like evasion/improved evasion or uncanny dodge/improved uncanny dodge might be good, especially those or are going with the spell-casting classes, since it would give them a bit more incentive to take the class. Similarly, if you were to go for the wilds feel, something that helps with tracking might be good as well. In regards to saves, I think that have high reflex is understandable, although I could come up with reasons for either fort or will to be high as well. Having two high saves is acceptable to me.
The requirements are fine, and go well with the flavor of the class. You might want to include a special requirement, since in the description you mention that march warders are "chosen," so having something like "being accepted into the order" or something along those lines is fine. It might be redundant, but it's probably worth including "dodge" as a prerequisite, since it's needed for mobility.
I always feel bad critiquing original classes, 'cause I always feel like I'm coming across as too negative. This is a pretty cool class, and you did a good job with it. |
Being sarcastic can be more telling than simply telling. |
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dwarvenranger
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2008 : 22:19:20
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| What are the saves? Why wouldn't a fighter want to take this? Does the FE bonus stack with a rangers or Harpers and if so, why wouldn't they want to take it? Why have balance as a pre-req? I agree with GoCeraf about the Hit Die. It seems to me that these guys are sort of an assassin type, given the write up. Why not use the Avenger PrC instead? |
If I waited till I knew what I was doing, I'd never get anything done.
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dwarvenranger
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2008 : 22:20:20
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| Sorry, missed the saves on the first read through. |
If I waited till I knew what I was doing, I'd never get anything done.
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 07 Aug 2008 : 22:32:01
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Hmmm ...
- BAB is the same as Fighter
- bonus feats is the same as Fighter
- hit dice is better than Fighter
- prerequisites arent really "useless feats"
- added special abilities
All of these are equal or better than the fighter. Where is the cost to balance this against a simple fighter? |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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Zaskar24
Acolyte
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2008 : 01:17:52
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quote:
Originally posted by GoCeraf
Something you may want to ask yourself is "what would make me want this class?" I mean, bonus feats are a bit wasted on prestige classes. In fact, if you look at the later editions of the Star Wars game and even DnD, feats are more prevalent in core classes, while specialized abilities are more so in the prestige classes.
Secondly, I feel as though I could get the same effect simply from having a multi-class ranger fighter. Sure, the feat acquisition is slight accelerated, but I've already had my say on bonus feats and prestige classes.
One thing I happen to really like is the favored improved critical. More so than the normal bonus that ranger get, it shows that you know where the vitals on your special enemy are, and how to exploit them. Excellent choice.
I know it's a popular die for personal classes, but I think that a d12 would be too high for this class, especially given its flavor. You might want to consider dropping it down to a d10 (or even a d8), since it has elements of both fighters and rangers. I'd need to know more, like how many skills points it gets, what the class skills are, and whether it gets any sorts of armor proficiency.
As far as a level 5 ability, something like evasion/improved evasion or uncanny dodge/improved uncanny dodge might be good, especially those or are going with the spell-casting classes, since it would give them a bit more incentive to take the class. Similarly, if you were to go for the wilds feel, something that helps with tracking might be good as well. In regards to saves, I think that have high reflex is understandable, although I could come up with reasons for either fort or will to be high as well. Having two high saves is acceptable to me.
The requirements are fine, and go well with the flavor of the class. You might want to include a special requirement, since in the description you mention that march warders are "chosen," so having something like "being accepted into the order" or something along those lines is fine. It might be redundant, but it's probably worth including "dodge" as a prerequisite, since it's needed for mobility.
I always feel bad critiquing original classes, 'cause I always feel like I'm coming across as too negative. This is a pretty cool class, and you did a good job with it.
I see what you mean about the bonus feats and prestige classes in DnD, I do not play Star Wars so no experience there. I am going to work on revision 1 based on the feedback so far and address this.
The first revision will give a better reason to take this instead of the ranger fighter multi-class. I hope.
As for the Favored Improved Critical thank you. I feel that this is a decent ability that is otherwise not available, that I know of at least.
I would like to keep the d12 and will post skill points and class skills with the revision by the end of this weekend hopefully. Though I will consider dropping it based on what everyone thinks.
I have an idea for the 5th level ability but want to hsah it out in my head first before posting it. I'm still not sure on the saving throws so will definitely take your thoughts into consideration.
For requirements I am going to go with the having to be selected by a march warder to become one and also having favored enemy or the foe hunter feat orc as a special.
The way I see it, if I did not want it torn apart and then have help getting it balanced I should not have posted it here to be critiqued. Thank you for the compliment and hopefully the revision will be better and have less to critique, though they are always welcome. |
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Zaskar24
Acolyte
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2008 : 01:27:12
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quote:
Originally posted by dwarvenranger
What are the saves? Why wouldn't a fighter want to take this? Does the FE bonus stack with a rangers or Harpers and if so, why wouldn't they want to take it? Why have balance as a pre-req? I agree with GoCeraf about the Hit Die. It seems to me that these guys are sort of an assassin type, given the write up. Why not use the Avenger PrC instead?
It is not that a fighter would not want to take this. It is more that as base classes rangers and barbarians are more likely to be selected because of there backgrounds.
Yes the FE bonus stacks with any other FE that the character has from other classes. Could it stack with Foe Hunter from the Players Guide though? That is something that I am kicking around right now as I type these replies.
Balance is a pre-requisite because I see these guys as taking the fight to the enemy where they live. Which sometimes means having the sneak along a 6 inch ledge to get into there camp with the parties rogue (I know this all to well as I had to do it in an earlier adventure.) I also see it as being an asset in hilly and mountainous terrain.
Again with the HD. I am getting the hint.
I see these guys more as U.S. Army Rangers and Delta Force than assassins. What book is the Avenger in? I would like to look at it but do not think I have the book it is in. |
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Zaskar24
Acolyte
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2008 : 01:30:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
Hmmm ...
- BAB is the same as Fighter
- bonus feats is the same as Fighter
- hit dice is better than Fighter
- prerequisites arent really "useless feats"
- added special abilities
All of these are equal or better than the fighter. Where is the cost to balance this against a simple fighter?
What would you suggest to balance out the advantages over a simple fighter? I see what you are getting at but see nothing I can use to solve this which is what I am looking for. |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2008 : 09:11:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Zaskar24
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
Hmmm ...
- BAB is the same as Fighter
- bonus feats is the same as Fighter
- hit dice is better than Fighter
- prerequisites arent really "useless feats"
- added special abilities
All of these are equal or better than the fighter. Where is the cost to balance this against a simple fighter?
What would you suggest to balance out the advantages over a simple fighter? I see what you are getting at but see nothing I can use to solve this which is what I am looking for.
IMO you should just have your Fighters take a few levels of Ranger ... they get Track and Endurance as bonus feats which would help "roaming the land". They also have the Favored Enemy you added into the PrC. Just keep it simple! The mechanics and such arent as important as how your (N)PCs are seen by the other people in the world and this can be totally different from their actual skills. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
Edited by - Pandora on 08 Aug 2008 09:13:42 |
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Zaskar24
Acolyte
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2008 : 13:03:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
quote:
Originally posted by Zaskar24
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
Hmmm ...
- BAB is the same as Fighter
- bonus feats is the same as Fighter
- hit dice is better than Fighter
- prerequisites arent really "useless feats"
- added special abilities
All of these are equal or better than the fighter. Where is the cost to balance this against a simple fighter?
What would you suggest to balance out the advantages over a simple fighter? I see what you are getting at but see nothing I can use to solve this which is what I am looking for.
IMO you should just have your Fighters take a few levels of Ranger ... they get Track and Endurance as bonus feats which would help "roaming the land". They also have the Favored Enemy you added into the PrC. Just keep it simple! The mechanics and such arent as important as how your (N)PCs are seen by the other people in the world and this can be totally different from their actual skills.
My biggest complaint about rangers in 3.5 is the fact that they have to take a combat style neither of which I like. I know you do not have to use it, at which point it turns into a wasted ability. That and rangers are so overused that it has become a cliche. So no ranger levels for me.
Besides, I asked for help with this PrC, not alternatives to it. |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2008 : 14:30:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Zaskar24
My biggest complaint about rangers in 3.5 is the fact that they have to take a combat style neither of which I like. I know you do not have to use it, at which point it turns into a wasted ability. That and rangers are so overused that it has become a cliche. So no ranger levels for me.
Besides, I asked for help with this PrC, not alternatives to it.
Well for me its totally different and one of the problems of 3.5 and FR is that there are too many Prestige Classes. Most of the time they are imbalanced due to one or more special goodie and sometimes they do what many others do already. If you cant live with the combat styles of the ranger simply invent another one and use it instead. If you dont like the "name tag Ranger" that is fine, because you dont have to call yourself a ranger. Just slap any fancy name you want on it but use the Ranger mechanics ... with your altered combat style. Maybe ... if you want to change the class to be more "civilized" you could use Arcane spells instead of Divine ones for the ranger too, but always keep in mind the purpose of the class for the limited spell list and the arcane spell failure. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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dwarvenranger
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2008 : 17:17:22
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[quote
I see these guys more as U.S. Army Rangers and Delta Force than assassins. What book is the Avenger in? I would like to look at it but do not think I have the book it is in.
[/quote]
It's on the WOTC website. Here's a link http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a |
If I waited till I knew what I was doing, I'd never get anything done.
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Zaskar24
Acolyte
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2008 : 00:06:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
quote:
Originally posted by Zaskar24
My biggest complaint about rangers in 3.5 is the fact that they have to take a combat style neither of which I like. I know you do not have to use it, at which point it turns into a wasted ability. That and rangers are so overused that it has become a cliche. So no ranger levels for me.
Besides, I asked for help with this PrC, not alternatives to it.
Well for me its totally different and one of the problems of 3.5 and FR is that there are too many Prestige Classes. Most of the time they are imbalanced due to one or more special goodie and sometimes they do what many others do already. If you cant live with the combat styles of the ranger simply invent another one and use it instead. If you dont like the "name tag Ranger" that is fine, because you dont have to call yourself a ranger. Just slap any fancy name you want on it but use the Ranger mechanics ... with your altered combat style. Maybe ... if you want to change the class to be more "civilized" you could use Arcane spells instead of Divine ones for the ranger too, but always keep in mind the purpose of the class for the limited spell list and the arcane spell failure.
To each their own. That is one of the joys of D&D in the end is it not. I am not interested in gaining spells so that is yet another ding against the ranger. Thank you for the thoughts though. |
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Zaskar24
Acolyte
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2008 : 00:09:05
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quote:
Originally posted by dwarvenranger
[quote
I see these guys more as U.S. Army Rangers and Delta Force than assassins. What book is the Avenger in? I would like to look at it but do not think I have the book it is in.
It's on the WOTC website. Here's a link http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/prc/20070401a
[/quote]
Thank you for the link dwarvenranger. A neat prestige class just not what I am looking for. While the march warder uses stealth to get near the enemy once they have reached that position it becomes all out assault. And once again it is one that has spells. If I wanted a spell slinger I would have made one. Thank you for the help though.
Does anyone have any more thoughts or critiques of the PrC as it stands? I am working on revision 1 and am aiming for the end ofthe weekend to have it posted. |
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Zaskar24
Acolyte
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2008 : 03:30:15
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Here is revision 1.0 fully fleshed out. Let me know what you think about this PrC. Not what base class or other PrC "might" fit the bill of what I am trying to capture here.
March Warder
Selected from among the many warriors who call the Silver Marches home, march warders are a small but elite group who strive to make the Silver Marches safe for all at the expense of their own comfort. While the Knights in Silver are the most prestigious and well known of warriors that defend the Silver Marches the march warders are the true stalwarts. Not just defending a 50 mile circle around Silvery Moon and travelling forth when needed, but actively hunting the enemies of the Silver Marches where they live before they can harm the people who live there.
Of all the classes that inhabit Faerun the two most likely to be selected to become march warders are barbarians and rangers. There are also a relatively high percentage of multi-class barbarian/fighters and ranger/ fighters that excel as march warders due to the amount of feats they get. Rogues that multi-class as fighters are sometimes chosen to be march warders as well though they are fairly rare. Though not as rare as cleric, druid, magic using characters or paladins for assorted reasons.
Hit Dice: d?
Requirements
To qualify to become a march warder, a character must fulfill all the following criteria.
Alignment: Any non-evil.
Base Attack Bonus: +6
Skills: Balance 2, Climb 4, Listen 4, Move Silently 4, Survival 4
Feats: Cleave, Combat Reflexes, Mobility
Special: Either have Favored Enemy class ability or the Foe Hunter Feat for orc. Must be selected and trained by a march warder in good standing with the brotherhood.
Class Skills
The march warder’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Ride (Dex), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str)
Skill Points at Each Level: 4+ Int modifiers
The March Warder
Level BAB Fort Ref Will Special
1 +1 +0 +2 +2 Favored Enemy
2 +2 +0 +3 +3 Bonus feat
3 +3 +1 +3 +3 Favored Improved Critical
4 +4 +1 +4 +4 Bonus feat
5 +5 +1 +4 +4 Warder’s last stand
Class Features
All the following are class features of the march warder prestige class.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: March warders gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor.
Favored Enemy: A march warder selects a favored enemy from the following list of enemies that threaten the Silver Marches: orcs, giants, goblins, hobgoblins, evil outsiders,. This ability works exactly like the favored enemy ability of the ranger class. If a march warder with ranger levels chooses a favored enemy that they already have chosen as a ranger, the bonuses stack.
Bonus Feat: At 2nd and 4th level the march warder gets to choose a bonus feat from the fighter bonus feats. The march warder must still meet all prerequisites for a bonus feat, including ability score and base attack minimums.
Favored Improved Critical: A march warder selects one creature that he has as a favored enemy to be able to inflict improved critical hit ranges against. Against that enemy you are treated as having the improved critical feat with any weapon you use.
Warders Last Stand: Whenever the march warders current hit point total is below 25% of their full hit points they gain incredible strength. The march warder gains a +4 bonus to their Strength score, a +2 bonus on saves, gains the Diehard feat, and a -2 penalty to their AC.
There is no limit to the number of times per day the last stand can activate. While the last stand is active, the same limitations on actions as a barbarian in a rage are incurred. The last stand cannot be voluntarily ended, although you automatically drop out while unconscious, helpless, or (most likely) when you receive healing to bring your current hit points above the threshold.
Any effect that would normally apply during a barbarian’s rage applies whenever last stand is active.
Notes
1. I am still not sure about the HD. I would like to keep it at d12 but want to see how all of you feel it balances out against the rest of the PrC.
2. Does everyone think that the favored enemy gained at first level should stack with the foe hunter feat for non-rangers that take this PrC. I feel it should since it is a special requirement but want to once again see how everyone feels about it.
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Zaskar24
Acolyte
USA
13 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2008 : 02:00:17
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Any thoughts or critiques of the PrC as presented? I am willing to make changes I am just looking for thoughts on what to do with this.
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March Warder PrC help
