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Artemel
Learned Scribe
USA
110 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Aug 2008 : 09:42:30
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Long time lurker here...
I've long been upset about the lack of support PrC wise for Helm. (Even more pissed off by Tyr killing him off...  )
Anyways, please give me some feedback on this PrC idea.
Knight Vigilant
This PrC is designed to improve a characters visual acuity and reduce armor penalties (seeing how Helm is the Watchful and his priests are almost universally heavy armor wearers, all the time).
Requirements:
Patron: Helm
Listen 4 ranks, Spot 4 ranks
Alertness, Initiate of Helm
Able to cast 3rd level divine spells
1- +1 +2 +0 +0 Low light vision -----
2- +2 +3 +0 +0 Armored ease 2 +1 CL
3- +3 +3 +1 +1 Vigilance +1 CL
4- +4 +4 +1 +1 Darkvision, 60ft +1 CL
5- +5 +4 +1 +1 Armored ease 4 +1 CL
6- +6 +5 +2 +2 Sustenance +1 CL
7- +7 +5 +2 +2 Darkvision, 120ft +1 CL
8- +8 +6 +2 +2 Unburdened +1 CL
9- +9 +6 +3 +3 Sleepless +1 CL
10 +10 +7 +3 +3 True seeing +1 CL
d8 HD
2+Int skill points per level
Concentration, Intimidate, Knowledge (Religion), Listen, Sense motive, Spellcraft, Spot
Low light vision (ex)
Armored ease 2 (ex) ignore 2 points of Armor check penalty
Vigilance (su) Sacred bonus to spot and listen checks equal to 1/2
class level
Darkvision (ex)
Armored ease 4 (ex) ignore 4 points of armor check penalty
Sustenance (su) negates need for food and water
Unburdened (ex) treats armor as one category lighter
Sleepless (su) negates need for sleep
True seeing (su) continuous as per spell
Well, that's the gist of it. I'll need to flesh it out and dress it up some, though.
I hope this is the right forum for this, and thanks for any and all feedback!
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2008 : 11:14:59
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When looking at PrCs I always look for things that balance out the added power. In this case the class gets
- +10 BAB,
- 10 spellcaster levels and
- increased ability with heavy armor
over 10 levels. So where is the "price" you pay for these boni to balance it with the standard classes? "Minor" boni like not needing food & drink & sleep anymore are kinda useful as well. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
Edited by - Pandora on 04 Aug 2008 11:15:43 |
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dwarvenranger
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2008 : 16:36:20
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| It seems a bit powerful for the reqs as written. The full BAB seems a bit off, I'd make it mod BAB. I'd give them a good will save so they're less likely to be charmed and whatnot. Also I think I'd give them a bonus verus illusions and the like that scales with levels as well as the ability to make a save verus an illusion without having to interact with it. Then I'd loose the continous True Seeing and make Unburdened the 10th level ability and move 120' Darkvision to 8th level. I do like the Vigilance ability. However, if you're going to make someone who can stand in one place guardiing it until he dies of old age, I'd make Endurance a pre-req. |
If I waited till I knew what I was doing, I'd never get anything done.
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Artemel
Learned Scribe
USA
110 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2008 : 17:12:04
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Thanks for the feedback. If I tweak the class like this, making it available to paladins and clerics... would it still be too good for a cleric?
Please note, no CL at 1st from before, and dropped on at 6th now for an 8/10 caster.
Knight Vigilant
This PrC is designed to improve a characters visual acuity and reduce armor penalties (seeing how Helm is the Watchful and his priests are almost universally heavy armor wearers, all the time).
Requirements:
Patron: Helm
Listen 4 ranks, Sense motive 2 ranks, Spot 4 ranks
Alertness, Endurance, Initiate of Helm
1- +1 +2 +0 +0 Low light vision -----
2- +2 +3 +0 +0 Armored ease 2 +1 CL
3- +3 +3 +1 +1 Vigilance +1 CL
4- +4 +4 +1 +1 Darkvision, 60ft +1 CL
5- +5 +4 +1 +1 Armored ease 4 +1 CL
6- +6 +5 +2 +2 Sustenance ---
7- +7 +5 +2 +2 Darkvision, 120ft +1 CL
8- +8 +6 +2 +2 Unburdened +1 CL
9- +9 +6 +3 +3 Sleepless +1 CL
10 +10 +7 +3 +3 True seeing +1 CL
True seeing (Sp) 1/day as a caster of your character level you may cast true seeing on self only |
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dwarvenranger
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2008 : 23:17:44
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| Better I think. If you're going to give them full BAB, then it's not unreasonable to make them have a BAB minimum as part of the pre-reqs. I also think I'd lose one more level of spellcasting. |
If I waited till I knew what I was doing, I'd never get anything done.
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GoCeraf
Learned Scribe
147 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2008 : 23:37:17
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You might want to add an enhanced code of conduct for the prestige class, such that they will lose class features in the event that it is violated.
It feels almost like you designed this class to play as it, and while that's fine, you seem very adamant about having the full base attack bonus. It seems to me that this class would cater more to paladins than clerics. As a whole, paladins have less to gain from multiple caster level enhancements. Even so, a cleric who took this class would become an extremely potent combatant. The skills, obviously, wouldn't help much in getting around (no tumble, balance, climb, what have you...), but the lowered armor check penalties would certainly help.
That, and the fact that the cleric would be giving up two levels of spell progression for an extra 33% to their base attack bonus progression... I don't know, dude, seems a bit much for me.
You may want to either tone down the caster level progression even more, so that it's less of a positive choice for clerics and more in keeping with a militant paladin, or you may want to axe the base attack bonus down to medium. It's not unusual that even martial prestige classes have medium base attack bonuses.
As far as the abilities go, they're pretty interesting. You might want to make some amending notes, such as whether "Unburdened" stacks with mithril armor, or how spell preparation would be affected by "sleepless."
Aside from that (my intent is not as negative as it sounds,  ), it seems like a really cool class. There aren't a lot of specialized prestige classes for specific deities, at least as far as I'm aware, so it's cool to see people start working on them like this.
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Being sarcastic can be more telling than simply telling. |
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Artemel
Learned Scribe
USA
110 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2008 : 00:18:48
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Yeah, I'm still not to sure about how Unburdened works with Mithril. I need to look up the Infusion "Knight Unburdened" from Forge of War when I get home and make a decision about it.
I didn't bother with a base attack bonus because the Initiate feat requires level 5 cleric or level 5 paladin.
As far as the full BAB and near full casting progression, there are some published works like that. Strangely, most of the ones that I can call to mind are actually Arcane casters, who gain more from going from low to full BAB than a divine caster does from going from moderate to full. (Knight Phantom, Abjurant Champion, and Eldritch Knight for arcane, and Knight of the Raven for divine casters for instance). So... still trying hard to find a balance between casting and BAB.
How low would the casting progression have to go for full BAB? And if the BAB went to moderate, would you up the casting to full? 9/10?
As far as spell preparation, that's the easy one. Divine casters don't actually require rest. Helm's clerics pray at dusk or dawn essentially, so at either time the character could pray and recieve his spell alotment. Only restriction for either time is that any spell cast in the last eight hours counts against him, as per standard rules. So if he casts a heal in the middle of the night, his dawn prayers gives him the usual alotment, minus that spell slot.
I'm not really sure the class needs any code of conduct. If I change the armored ease and unburdened to (Su) then maybe there would be enough abilities to lose. Still, I'd say the character has to stay a devout follower of Helm, which imposes its own limits on alignment and actions. And while the class could be picked up by paladins, Helm also has Lawful Evil clerics that could benefit from the PrC.
Thanks again to the replies, once I have had a chance to flesh this PrC out and playtest it, I'll definitely post the results. |
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GoCeraf
Learned Scribe
147 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2008 : 01:18:57
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I know what you mean about the other classes, but look at the eldritch knight.
Aside from a bonus feat, the only class features they get is the spellcasting. This equalizes the BAB, in my opinion.
If you were to keep the full BAB, I'd go ahead and knock off two more caster level progressions. One, I'd put at level 4, and the other I'd put at level 9.
If the BAB were mod, I'd definitely condone a full caster progression by your definitions (that is, 9/10). You may also want to amend the True Seeing ability. Instead of it working as a spell-like ability with a caster level equal to character level, the caster level should be equal to the level of the divine class the advancements are going to, plus the actual advancements (Fighter 1/Cleric 5/Knight Vigilant 10 would have caster level of 15, rather than 16). I don't think that Helm would be big on improving powers based on, say, warlock levels. |
Being sarcastic can be more telling than simply telling. |
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Critique a PrC for Helm...
