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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
 Posted - 30 Jul 2008 : 08:42:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by RodOdom
*shrug*
There's no feeling of continuity from where FR 3.5 left off. There's no explanation of how they got from point A (Spellplague) to point B (100 year leap.) They just drop new chunks of stuff all over the landscape. It suggests laziness and a lack of passion for the Realms. A year ago I was afraid that the Realms would be victim of over-enthusiastic young designers. It's turned out even worse; they didn't even want to try hard.
This really strikes home.
Not only was the God-name taken right out of Star Wars, but the lore itself was lifted wholesale from World of Warcraft - so much so, I almost feel like sending an E-Mail to Blizzard's legal dept.
I played a warlock in WoW for two years, so I know a little of what I'm talking about.
These 4e warlocks use Shardsouls, and in Warcraft, the warlocks use Soulshards... I kid you not.
Its like they are not even trying anymore. 
I feel like this stuff gets written ten minutes before they have to hand it in - You know; like those reports I used to write in HS on the bus on the way to school the morning they were do - and you just know the teacher knows you did just that, but you don't care because at least you handed something in.
(Large font emphasis above by PDK)
Mark, if you're correct about the above, I really do suggest you email Blizzard. This is serious plagiarism. |
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arry
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
317 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2008 : 17:20:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I feel like this stuff gets written ten minutes before they have to hand it in - You know; like those reports I used to write in HS on the bus on the way to school the morning they were do - and you just know the teacher knows you did just that, but you don't care because at least you handed something in.
I completely agree with you! There seems to be no thought or care taken in the slightest. Maybe as the designers know there's only going to be a couple of books for 4eFR it doesn't matter what they're like.  |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2008 : 20:11:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Mark, if you're correct about the above, I really do suggest you email Blizzard. This is serious plagiarism.
I'm very much correct about this.
Their editting dept. is letting too many 'things' from other settings - blatant rip-offs - get through to the final published copy.
However, considering that the last time I actually played in WoW I was in the city of Silvermoon helping the Elves recover the Towers of the Sun and Moon, I think this works both ways, and these two companies can't really afford to start pointing fingers at each other. Hasbro might have the financial power to squash 3rd party P&P companies, but Blizzard is a peer, and might even be able to eat THEM for lunch. I doubt either wants to open that can of worms.
I posted a comment over at WotC that it looked like these excerpts/plothooks were "scrawled on cocktail napkin", but it was deleted by a Mod. In fact, the mods have been rather over-zealous with their deletions since yesterday, so I guess we can thank Gleemax's cancellation for the new, stronger Mod presence on the FR boards.
Something must have ticked them off recently.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Jul 2008 20:14:11 |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2008 : 20:53:47
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Still Mark... an anonymous email could go a long way to restore at least a little bit of our Vaasan Realmslore...  |
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Ayunken-vanzan
Senior Scribe
Germany
657 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2008 : 20:54:12
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The pagination of this preview says "Chapter 7: Threats". So we'll get a whole chapter about the dangers PCs may face in the FR? What lore then can be found in the other chapters - is the chapter about the regions detailing sight seeing tips?
But why should we expect at all that they link the threats with the associated regions? |
"What mattered our lives now? When our world had been torn from us? Folk wept, or drank, or stood staring out over the land, wondering what new horror each dawn would bring."
Elender Stormfall of Suzail
"Anyone can kill deities, cause plagues, or destroy organizations. It takes real skill to make them live on."
Varl
FR/D&D-Links • 2ed Downloads |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36998 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2008 : 23:05:15
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As much as I hate to defend WotC.... Similar names don't imply plagarism, particularly when those names are nothing more than compound words. And it's also common, in fantasy, to name something after the sun and/or the moon.
These shardsouls (a name that doesn't seem exactly fitting, considering their origin) have a different origin than soul shards. The concepts are suspiciously close, and had it been me creating them, I would have renamed them just to avoid the comparison.
But... With the popularity of MMOs, it's likely that Blizzard is now bigger than WotC. And with it being this easy to catch, only an idiot would deliberately steal from someone bigger than them.
WoW's warlocks and soul shards may have inspired this, but insiring is not the same as directly copying. At worse, I think this is an unfortunate coincidence. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2008 : 23:48:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Still Mark... an anonymous email could go a long way to restore at least a little bit of our Vaasan Realmslore...
You really think so? I seriously doubt it, since even the numerous posts with constructive criticism and negative/disappointed comments on several forums seem to have no impact at all. I'm certain that they honestly believe that all the "whiners" represent a small minority of the FR fans, and once FRCG is out, even the most hard-core FR fans will "see how cool stuff it has". |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 00:02:58
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| I, too, am pretty sure that the only people WotC listens to is themselves. Paizo, on the other hand, seems to like listening to their customers. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 00:22:52
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I wonder if they are ever going to reveal what happened to all the of deities, and who is left like they promised way back when...not that I expect them to honor their promise... |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 00:37:38
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| Your going to have to post a link to that "promise" Hawkins. I don't recall anyone from WotC ever claiming that the individual fates of the deities would be revealed. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 01:02:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
Your going to have to post a link to that "promise" Hawkins. I don't recall anyone from WotC ever claiming that the individual fates of the deities would be revealed.
Might I rephrase? I did not mean that they meant they would reveal on the fate of every deity, but both Chris Perkins and Rich Baker said that there was going to be a "Countdown to the Realms" article on the deities (at least telling us who was left, if nothing else). They had a schedule for the release of various info and everything. The problem with finding the quotes is that they date back to December and January, and from different places on the whole Gleemax mess (forums, interviews and blogs); so I do not know if I can find them. That, and by "promise" I meant "official statement(s)."
Maybe RF and/or MT remembers these statements as well? |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 01:10:16
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Yeah Hawkins... give us quotes to prove us that you're not lying... 'cause you know, WotC's word is gold, and only fools would think they could sidestep their promises...  |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 01:13:44
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They also said we'd all like the new material. Now, did they really think they could please everyone or was that marketing-speak? At one point I got tired of trying to figure it out and stopped paying attention.
Two points: What does this have to do with the Realms? (Not a sarcastic or rhetorical question.) I thought 4E was supposed to end the era of pages of stats. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 01:58:07
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
Maybe RF and/or MT remembers these statements as well?
I do recall there was a deity article intended for the website way back. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 31 Jul 2008 01:58:44 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 01:58:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
I thought 4E was supposed to end the era of pages of stats.
Good point. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 02:01:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
Maybe RF and/or MT remembers these statements as well?
I do recall there was a deity article intended for the website way back.
-Which the rumor has it will be a LFR Article that will come out around my B-Day next week. 
BRIMSTONE  |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 16:41:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Yeah Hawkins... give us quotes to prove us that you're not lying... 'cause you know, WotC's word is gold, and only fools would think they could sidestep their promises...
Disclaimer
Well, considering that I do not have the time nor patience to try and dig up the quotes, you may all choose to believe or disbelieve me as you wish (which I believe was an option to begin with). I have stated the facts as I remember them, but being as I am human, there is a chance that I misremembered. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 16:51:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
-Which the rumor has it will be a LFR Article that will come out around my B-Day next week.
BRIMSTONE
Happy Birthday! in advance then. I will most likely forget you mentioning this next week.  |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 22:04:26
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*shrugs*
I just can't bring myself to care anymore. I'll take a gander at the FRCG when it's out but if the excerpts are even remotely representative of the product then I'm likely to have to bring one of those bags you get on an air plane. You know, just in case.
But really, I just don't believe WotC will put out good content. There will be some flukes here and there (Brian's stuff, Ed's stuff) but, by and large, I expect it to be a big, steaming pile of dung. I hope I'm wrong, I really, REALLY hope I'm wrong but I've only seen a couple of "points of light" in this bubbling morass of blasé material that shares almost nothing in common with the Realms that I've come to know.
I think MT's comparison to the good old "do the homework in the 5 minutes before class" analogy is pretty damned apt too. That's almost exactly what it seems like and as I read these previews all I can think is that the author doesn't care and the editor doesn't care, either that or their tastes are FAR different from my own.
Anyhow, the fact that they decided to bring in some random stuff falling from the sky, rather than use perfectly established lore (Zhengyi or Orcus work perfectly, there also could be some mention of Eltab and work in a story about Eltab's growin influence or a story about how Eltab was kicked out of . . . Narfel was it?. . . whatever, wherever he was and had to relocate to Vaasa, maybe even under an assumed name, to rebuild his power base)
Damn, three different hooks to already established lore right there and I'm not even trying.
And THAT'S what makes me the saddest. |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2008 : 05:03:34
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Yeah Hawkins... give us quotes to prove us that you're not lying... 'cause you know, WotC's word is gold, and only fools would think they could sidestep their promises...
Disclaimer
Well, considering that I do not have the time nor patience to try and dig up the quotes, you may all choose to believe or disbelieve me as you wish (which I believe was an option to begin with). I have stated the facts as I remember them, but being as I am human, there is a chance that I misremembered.
I was rolling my eyes while writing that you know... which is my way to show that I was highly sarcastic! |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2008 : 05:39:17
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
Might I rephrase? I did not mean that they meant they would reveal on the fate of every deity, but both Chris Perkins and Rich Baker said that there was going to be a "Countdown to the Realms" article on the deities (at least telling us who was left, if nothing else). They had a schedule for the release of various info and everything. The problem with finding the quotes is that they date back to December and January, and from different places on the whole Gleemax mess (forums, interviews and blogs); so I do not know if I can find them. That, and by "promise" I meant "official statement(s)."
RB said recently on his blog that those "Countdown to the Realms" articles (10 were planned, we got 3 IIRC) won't come because of a lack of human resources. |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2008 : 07:29:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
Might I rephrase? I did not mean that they meant they would reveal on the fate of every deity, but both Chris Perkins and Rich Baker said that there was going to be a "Countdown to the Realms" article on the deities (at least telling us who was left, if nothing else). They had a schedule for the release of various info and everything. The problem with finding the quotes is that they date back to December and January, and from different places on the whole Gleemax mess (forums, interviews and blogs); so I do not know if I can find them. That, and by "promise" I meant "official statement(s)."
RB said recently on his blog that those "Countdown to the Realms" articles (10 were planned, we got 3 IIRC) won't come because of a lack of human resources.
LOL! die 4E, DIE! |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2008 : 10:09:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Sian
i like the idea of warlocks taking control of Vasaa ...
Personally I never liked Warlocks much. They really have the the feeling of Star Wars Sith for me, but that is mainly because Zhengyi in my world is a 10th level Necromancer, 10th level Warlock and 10th level Eldritch Theurge (= 20 / 20 Wiz / Warlock) who looks and behaves more or less like the Emperor in Star Wars. Such things "work" if they are rare and thus special, but not if they become common and everyday stuff. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 02 Aug 2008 : 02:18:08
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Well, considering they're marching around in FelIron Armor and looking like a bunch of Stormtroopers, I think the 'Empire' analogy is apt. 
As to 'the promise of god-lore' thingy, what Rich said, way back in December I believe, was that he was hoping a Realmslore article about the deities would be availble in January, or perhaps February (not the EXACT words, but that was the gist of it).
There was never a promise - just a 'hope' - and there were no details other then it was to be a 'deities article' - so we still may not have gotten any hard information about who's still around and who's dead other then what we already know (although back then, we new FAR less).
And Rich has been very forthcoming about the proposed articles and the scheduling problems, so I don't think that he, personally, was attempting any subterfuge. In fact, he almost sounds as disappoined as us that they did not appear...
After all, he's the one that gets hammered for every little thing, and any info given is about 100 less questions he gets asked. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Aug 2008 02:28:47 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2008 : 17:49:33
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| I think it's generally best not to assume malicious intent in cases like this. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 04 Aug 2008 : 19:28:13
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| I never meant to imply subterfuge on Rich's part, and I apologize if I unwittingly did so. It is pretty much the rest of WotC that I am suspicious of... |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2008 : 05:35:59
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They seem to have had some problems that have been building up over the last few months, which has lead to the disappointment that was Gleemax and the poor quality of the DDi output (including the proposed articles).
The guy who was running their online initiative was having personal problems that ended tragically, so right now I think it best if we cut them a little slack when it comes to anything online (including their forums, Gleemax, content, crashes, etc...).
If you really need to know more about it, see my post in the Glemax thread - very sad news indeed. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Aug 2008 05:36:30 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2008 : 10:03:04
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-Yeah a murder/suicide is pretty sad.
BRIMSTONE |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2008 : 00:15:43
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
I never meant to imply subterfuge on Rich's part, and I apologize if I unwittingly did so.
I didn't think you did, I just think what I posted before is good general advice to follow. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Another preview: Warlock Knight of Vaasa
