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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Jul 2008 : 16:23:04
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(I mean the kind with bunches of sentient beings killing each other, not the kind with three hundred couples on a beach in the Republic of China.)
I recently ran the Battles of the Golden Way using modified Conan RPG rules, but they were clumsier and less streamlined than I would have liked. (I didn't even try to use the Battlesystem(TM) rules for them -- my players would have ... balked at a return to an AD&D system which they don't know at all.)
The party is now pursuing the rump of the Tuigan army (only about sixty thousand after they slaughtered all of their Shou "allies"). The PCs are with a mercenary company, still, so they will probably be engaging in large combats against the Tuigan for a while, and I really need an easy-to-manage battle system. I've tried using AEG's War and Mercenaries rules, but once "command auras" and "command styles" and "Leadership feats" start dogpiling each other, it becomes a hopeless mess (not unlike Realms.New.Coke!  ).
My players think D&D Miniatures rules are even more ridiculous than I do, so while I might cherry-pick a particularly worthwhile rule or three from them, I am not going to get away with imposing the whole system. Similarly, there are some very nice unit feats in Testament, but my players would rebel if I tried imposing anything too outré on the campaign. (Nu, you think I'm a conservative gamer? You should meet my players!)
My campaign is low-fantasy & high grit, so what large unit combat systems have other low-fantasy DMs successfully used in their own Realms campaigns (or in any d20 campaign, for that matter)? Please let me know, because I foresee at least one, and possibly as many as four fairly large combats in the near future, after which the PCs can follow their own inclinations (which should lead them straight into FRA1-3  ).
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2008 : 16:36:44
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| Hm, I'm not sure if this is exactly what you are looking for, but the Heroes of Battle rulebook from a few years back has a system that isn't exactly mass combat, as in telling you how individual units do versus other units and the like, but it has a point system for victory. Everything the PCs do has an effect on battle, so they might gain a certain number of victory points for sneaking through enemies lines and killing a general and his bodyguard, or they may earn some victory points for healing their side's general and buffing some commandos. |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jul 2008 : 16:54:22
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I have that and want to utilize the rules you just mentioned, but it's really geared towards small unit (i.e. "party") engagements, and not the sorts of things which sweep away empires.
If I can get the PCs into the area where FRA1 (Storm Riders) takes place, things will be (relatively) "back to normal," if only because large forces can't maneuver in the mountain passes, on narrow bridges, and on staircases cut into cliffsides. It will really be back to: "tank" in front, mages and clerics in the middle, and with the rear guarded by somebody very large, very well-armored, and (probably) very stupid. 
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jul 2008 : 15:19:00
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Over the years, I have used two systems for settling large-scale battles - the first were the mass combat rules from the ODD Dungeons and Dragons Rules Cyclopedia, which I liked a lot. The other set were an adaptation from a French game, Ave Tenebrae (sidebar: said game was created by François Marcela-Froideval, a French RPG guru, who worked with TSR, as it then was, for a while, and contributed heavily to the 1st Edition ADD Monster Manual II, as well as POriental Adventures).
The latter basically translates massive number of creatures into units, and combat is played out as a normal wargame. The transition from D&D creatures to Ave Tenebrae units was rather crude, though. The DDRC mass combat rules allowed for a smoother translation, and allowed to be more specific when it came to taking into account D&D races' special abilities, so I've stuck with that ever since. |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2008 : 02:19:19
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How well does Rules Cyclopedia translate into d20 terms? As I've said, my players are reluctant to get into old D&D.
I find it deliciously ironic that a game which developed out of a miniatures wargame (the original Chainmail) should be so ill-equipped for large-scale battles now. Maybe Hasbro figures that large-scale battles are contrary to the video-game model which they are establishing for D&D 4.New.Coke. Again, I quote good old Charles Brown: *sigh*
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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IngoDjan
Learned Scribe
Brazil
146 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2008 : 03:08:21
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| Cry Havoc´s! |
Ingo Djan
DUNGEON MASTER AO OF THE DIAMONDS!"I see the future repeat the past. It all is a museum of great news. The Time do not stop." |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2008 : 02:15:56
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Ha ha ha! I was just about to post a question about that! IngoDjan, would you please share your experiences with Cry Havoc! (from Monte Cook's Malhavoc Press)?
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2008 : 06:07:25
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I recommend the Miniatures Handbook. It contains rules for mass combat (the book has actually three main sections: 1) feats and PrCs for regular D&D; 2) D&D Minis rules; and 3) Mass Combat rules.
I use 1) and 3), and wholly ignore 2).
Add some supplemental rules from Heroes of Battle, like rules on arrow volleys and catapults, and you're off to the races with a very detailed, workable, and fun system. I haven't had the chance to fully explore the system, but my PCs are (finally) at epic levels now, and in charge of large armies... so I have reviewed the system up and down throughout the years in preparation of the upcoming battles!
Make sure your players understand that there *will* be casualties though; if they expect to find rules that they can munchkin to their advantage and have an army composed of invulnerable grunts, this is not the right system for you. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2008 : 15:51:12
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Its been a few years since I have run large battles, but when I did I used the old GURPS rules in GURPS Conan for the larger battles and the system in swedish Drakar och Demoner Gigant for "small" battles.
The rules in the Metzer version of D&D are OK, but I have never used them. |
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Snotlord
Senior Scribe
Norway
476 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2008 : 17:27:48
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I tried the Mentzer OD&D rules back in the day, and it was ok at the time. I've looked at Crt Havoc, but found it far to detailed for my taste.
I've settled for eyeballing the overall result, with Heroes of Battle-style input from the players.
I have on one occasion decided that Battle X had this or that result, unless the heroes win 3 out of 5 encounters during the overall battle.
Also, I've let the players come up with tactics, backed by Knowledge (war) or Profession (military commander) rolls. If they convince me, I may change my pre-decided outcome of the battle.
Not much for the wargaming crowd, but it works for me. |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2008 : 18:14:57
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Oh, that's not a problem. I use unit rosters with the names of NPCs. In the first Battle of the Golden Way there were a lot of wounds and one insta-kill -- the only NPC whom a player asked about by name! In the last encounter there was a horrid undead thing which broke the whole regiment and would have killed most of them if it hadn't fallen to divine magic.
To coin a phrase: There will be blood....
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Neil Bishop
Learned Scribe
Singapore
100 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2008 : 18:56:10
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| Savage Worlds has a really good system and the conversions would be quite quick to do. |
Regards
NXB |
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Amarel Derakanor
Seeker
97 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2008 : 13:55:40
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Well met!
I actually don't use any specific rules-system to run large battles. Instead, I would compare the statistics of the different combatants; relative level, skill at arms, and so on, as well as the relative morale of a 'unit', and its present cohesion, leadership, and level of discipline and training.
When I got a good 'feel' of what the different combatans could accomplish, I simply make up who's winning(I the game master, after all), and who's losing, based on the facts stated above. I might roll a die for some situations, every now and then, but I generally keep such things to a minimum, because overzealous rolling tend to slow down play.
It should be noted that I would still run events that affect the Player Characters as normal( rolling to hit, et c., for both the PC's and their opponents).
Well, that's how I do it. |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2008 : 04:39:01
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What edition of Savage Worlds do you use? Following your suggestion I looked it up, and I saw that the first book had a cover price of thirty-five bucks, and the cheapest copy of Savage World of Solomon Kane on Amazon.com was thirty-five dollars -- used.
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Shottglazz
Acolyte
Canada
49 Posts |
Posted - 08 Aug 2008 : 17:31:27
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| In the past, my group and I have used the ODD Rules Cyclopedia system. It is easily modified to any version of D&D...or other fantasty RPG's at that...it is simplistic enough, and gives a decent, fast combat |
Shottglazz
"Take my love, Take my land, Take me where I cannot stand;
I don't care, I'm still free. You can't take the sky from me." |
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What rules do you use for large engagements?
