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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Jun 2008 : 15:06:15
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Now that we know the PHB2 is coming in march and that it deals only with divine, arcane and primal power sources. What do you guys think?
It has also been basically confirmed that the goliath, barbarian and shaman will be a part of it
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When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2008 : 15:54:35
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quote:
Originally posted by MerrikCale
Now that we know the PHB2 is coming in march and that it deals only with divine, arcane and primal power sources. What do you guys think?
It has also been basically confirmed that the goliath, barbarian and shaman will be a part of it
Link Please. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
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My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2008 : 16:47:07
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| http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/dndacc/9780786950164 |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2008 : 16:54:12
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Even if I was going to buy into 4E, I'd be pissed about PHB content being split between two books, thus costing twice as much.
But since I won't touch 4E, no worries.  |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2008 : 17:45:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Even if I was going to buy into 4E, I'd be pissed about PHB content being split between two books, thus costing twice as much.
But since I won't touch 4E, no worries.
forget 2 books. PHB3 is coming out in '10 |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2008 : 17:52:51
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quote:
Originally posted by MerrikCale
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Even if I was going to buy into 4E, I'd be pissed about PHB content being split between two books, thus costing twice as much.
But since I won't touch 4E, no worries.
forget 2 books. PHB3 is coming out in '10
For real? They're splitting one book into 3? |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2008 : 18:54:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
For real? They're splitting one book into 3?
Not really.
They aren't "splitting" anything. Each Player's Handbook is a new grouping of player material (classes, races, and I presume feats, magic items and rituals as well). The rules information is still found solely in the PH; I expect future PH books to be the standard 160 page format they've adopted for most material. Classes take up a lot of space (12-14 pages each, so an 8-class book would have 96-112 pages just for class material).
Don't think of PH2 as "Player's Handbook, part II." It's not. It's more material like that in chapters 3 and 4 (and, quite possibly, 6, 7 and 10). In that respect, it will be more like a MM2 than anything: self-contained, modular units of game material (in this case, character classes). |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2008 : 19:43:38
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| I remember way back when 4e was first announced and I was a large participant in the Doomsday Thread, and Chris Sims said that they were planning on a new PH & MM every year, kind of like the 3.x MMs. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2008 : 19:43:55
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| but they have said there will be a new PHB and Montser Manual every year |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2008 : 19:44:58
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| Hawkins beat me by 15 seconds |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2008 : 20:11:14
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I just don't get it! Now all 4E fans buy into that setting only to get what?! - a 5th Ed. in a few years. Ah, what the hack. Shall not bother my as I do it like Wolly and stick with what I've got.
So long, friends. |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2008 : 20:56:37
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The PHBII? Well, I like the first one, so I plan to buy it. It'll probably have bards in it, which would be nice.
But you knew that already, Merrick. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 26 Jun 2008 20:57:09 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2008 : 21:48:43
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I see. So this new, simpler, sped-up version of the game will now require multiple player handbooks for some classes. And this is an improvement, how?
Ditto for that bit on how much room classes take up. That's a lot more pagecount, per class, than in prior versions. I'm simply amazed at how streamlining the game is taking so much more pagecount than it took before.
I know that prior versions of the game always had multiple expansion books for classes... But those books expanded on content available in the PHB -- it wasn't a case of leaving stuff out of one volume to put it in the next.
If I wasn't already ignoring 4E, this would seriously put a damper in my enthusiasm for it. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2008 : 22:02:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I see. So this new, simpler, sped-up version of the game will now require multiple player handbooks for some classes. And this is an improvement, how?
Ditto for that bit on how much room classes take up. That's a lot more pagecount, per class, than in prior versions. I'm simply amazed at how streamlining the game is taking so much more pagecount than it took before.
I know that prior versions of the game always had multiple expansion books for classes... But those books expanded on content available in the PHB -- it wasn't a case of leaving stuff out of one volume to put it in the next.
If I wasn't already ignoring 4E, this would seriously put a damper in my enthusiasm for it.
Mileage varies on this approach to design, for sure.
Keep in mind, though, that while previous editions certainly took up less space for class listings, 1)there was a severely disproportionate amount of pagecount per class (compare the rogue to the wizard, including spells) and 2)in 4E, everything you need to play your class is in those 14 pages. Future classes can't take advantage of previous editions' ability to reference, say, the wizard spell list, or even a specific grouping of spells from the PH; each class needs its own 30 levels of powers.
As for your point about expansion books: this isn't an expansion of the classes in the PH; these are new classes in the PH2. You won't see 8 or 10 pages of fighter or warlord powers in that book (Martial Power is another story entirely). You'll see (my guess is) the druid, and the barbarian, and the bard, maybe the shaman or sorcerer or illusionist, possibly some new class starting with "War-" (because that seems to be popular so far), a full-stat listing for the goliath (definitely) and gnome (maybe), along with a few other classes, and so on.
Personally, I have no problem at all with this approach. There is always a finite number of classes that can fit in one book, and given their new size, 8 was it for the PH. I might not agree with the choice of classes, but I certainly didn't want to see a Heroic Level Handbook, a Paragon Handbook, and an Epic Handbook, with the same classes re-hashed over the course of multiple books. Once the class format for 4E was settled on, this was the way to go. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2008 : 23:30:13
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I know it's not an expansion of classes; I wasn't trying to say it was.
What I was saying is that in prior editions, when you rolled up your new character, all you needed was one book: the PHB. You had all of your classes in there, in the same book as all the rules you needed as a player. With the expansion books, you expanded on what was in the PHB, but the basic class was still what was written out in the PHB.
Now, with some of the classes that got omitted, you will now need whichever volume of the PHB they're in, plus the original PHB, plus whatever expansion book you choose for the nifty new stuff for your class -- and we know those books will be coming, even if they haven't announced it yet.
And gods, 14 pages just to describe a single class? This is streamlined? In prior editions, in 14 pages I could cover just about every aspect of my character's class(es) and kit/PrC and his race -- but this "improved" version of the game needs that much for just the class.
I think it's utterly ridiculous that the new streamlined classes take up so much room that some of them had to be (very conveniently for WotC's bottom line) bumped to later books. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2008 : 23:56:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Ditto for that bit on how much room classes take up. That's a lot more pagecount, per class, than in prior versions. I'm simply amazed at how streamlining the game is taking so much more pagecount than it took before.
I just want to point out that the classes take up more pages because they have a lot of class-specific options (such as powers). It's not because the rules are more complicated. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2008 : 00:16:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Ditto for that bit on how much room classes take up. That's a lot more pagecount, per class, than in prior versions. I'm simply amazed at how streamlining the game is taking so much more pagecount than it took before.
I just want to point out that the classes take up more pages because they have a lot of class-specific options (such as powers). It's not because the rules are more complicated.
Yeah, but by adding in all these class-specific options, they have added more complexity to the game -- while claiming to streamline it. In no prior edition of the game did I feel like a character simply didn't have enough class options.
Besides, if I want a nifty new power every level, I'll play WoW. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2008 : 01:28:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Yeah, but by adding in all these class-specific options, they have added more complexity to the game -- while claiming to streamline it.
Just curious: have you played 4E yet?
Everyone has the same number of powers at the same level.
Someone using the PHB2 won't need to reference the PHB1, except to look up rules for combat and gear, and posibly for information on a race found in the PHB1.
Creating characters in 4E is a much faster, streamlined process.
That won't go away when the PHB2 comes out next year. |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2008 : 01:38:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
The PHBII? Well, I like the first one, so I plan to buy it. It'll probably have bards in it, which would be nice.
But you knew that already, Merrick.
since it has arcane, divine and primal power sources, bards are all but guaranteed |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2008 : 05:14:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Yeah, but by adding in all these class-specific options, they have added more complexity to the game -- while claiming to streamline it.
Just curious: have you played 4E yet?
Everyone has the same number of powers at the same level.
Someone using the PHB2 won't need to reference the PHB1, except to look up rules for combat and gear, and posibly for information on a race found in the PHB1.
Creating characters in 4E is a much faster, streamlined process.
That won't go away when the PHB2 comes out next year.
Just because I've kind of been waiting to point this out, I have indeed played the game. Its not more complicated, but its not simpler either. The complexity has shifted around. It will work for some people, but for others it won't. But its not demonstrably better than 3.5, and while the game itself is fine and may be just what some people are looking for, the marketing of 4e has claimed that its "fixes" many things that it doesn't so much "fix" as it just sidesteps and redefines.
And for what its worth, I have played it, and still much prefer 3.5. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2008 : 05:35:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Yeah, but by adding in all these class-specific options, they have added more complexity to the game -- while claiming to streamline it.
Just curious: have you played 4E yet?
Everyone has the same number of powers at the same level.
Someone using the PHB2 won't need to reference the PHB1, except to look up rules for combat and gear, and posibly for information on a race found in the PHB1.
Creating characters in 4E is a much faster, streamlined process.
That won't go away when the PHB2 comes out next year.
Nope. I refuse to touch it. I've read as much as I can about it without touching the actual books, and everything has convinced me that it's now D&D in name only.
And you're not seeing the point I'm making. In prior editions of the game, all of the classes were present in one book. You could play any class, at any level, with nothing at all more than the PHB. But with classes being put in the PHB2 instead of the PHB1, that no longer applies. If you play a class that's in the PHB2, you need that book handy, and you need the PHB1 handy for everything else. And that's what I am objecting to.
I don't care if everyone has the same powers at the same level. In fact, I dislike that. I don't want my swordswinger doing anything other than swinging a sword. And so on.
Character creation is much faster? You know, in prior versions, if I knew what I wanted beforehand, I could do everything but buy my starting equipment in just a few minutes. The only time it took longer was if I didn't know what I wanted to play. Telling me it's now faster is not something that interests me. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Theophilus
Learned Scribe
Australia
143 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2008 : 06:38:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Yeah, but by adding in all these class-specific options, they have added more complexity to the game -- while claiming to streamline it.
Just curious: have you played 4E yet?
Everyone has the same number of powers at the same level.
Someone using the PHB2 won't need to reference the PHB1, except to look up rules for combat and gear, and posibly for information on a race found in the PHB1.
Creating characters in 4E is a much faster, streamlined process.
That won't go away when the PHB2 comes out next year.
Nope. I refuse to touch it. I've read as much as I can about it without touching the actual books, and everything has convinced me that it's now D&D in name only.
And you're not seeing the point I'm making. In prior editions of the game, all of the classes were present in one book. You could play any class, at any level, with nothing at all more than the PHB. But with classes being put in the PHB2 instead of the PHB1, that no longer applies. If you play a class that's in the PHB2, you need that book handy, and you need the PHB1 handy for everything else. And that's what I am objecting to.
I don't care if everyone has the same powers at the same level. In fact, I dislike that. I don't want my swordswinger doing anything other than swinging a sword. And so on.
Character creation is much faster? You know, in prior versions, if I knew what I wanted beforehand, I could do everything but buy my starting equipment in just a few minutes. The only time it took longer was if I didn't know what I wanted to play. Telling me it's now faster is not something that interests me.
Well my only hope for 4th ed is that the DM's have fantastic memories. Imagine having to construct your campaign around 1,2,3,4+? PHB's with the 14pgs of class specifics etc in each book...
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2008 : 07:39:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
The PHBII? Well, I like the first one, so I plan to buy it. It'll probably have bards in it, which would be nice.
Admittedly, I haven't been as "up" on all the 4e core D&D rules developments, so I've likely missed the explanation as to why but... Why weren't Bards detailed in the PHB? |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2008 : 08:37:09
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
And for what its worth, I have played it, and still much prefer 3.5.
Aye, 'tis be true... verily! |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2008 : 08:39:37
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
The PHBII? Well, I like the first one, so I plan to buy it. It'll probably have bards in it, which would be nice.
Admittedly, I haven't been as "up" on all the 4e core D&D rules developments, so I've likely missed the explanation as to why but... Why weren't Bards detailed in the PHB?
Same reasons gnomes, druids, and barbarians got axed from the PHB? |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2008 : 08:46:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Nope. I refuse to touch it. I've read as much as I can about it without touching the actual books, and everything has convinced me that it's now D&D in name only.
And you're not seeing the point I'm making. In prior editions of the game, all of the classes were present in one book. You could play any class, at any level, with nothing at all more than the PHB. But with classes being put in the PHB2 instead of the PHB1, that no longer applies. If you play a class that's in the PHB2, you need that book handy, and you need the PHB1 handy for everything else. And that's what I am objecting to.
I don't care if everyone has the same powers at the same level. In fact, I dislike that. I don't want my swordswinger doing anything other than swinging a sword. And so on.
Character creation is much faster? You know, in prior versions, if I knew what I wanted beforehand, I could do everything but buy my starting equipment in just a few minutes. The only time it took longer was if I didn't know what I wanted to play. Telling me it's now faster is not something that interests me.
I hear ya Wooly! I suspect the 4E game is not better than 3.5, and that the majority of people who have switched did so out of a need to conform to the directions their D&D group was taking, or due to the simple excitement of trying something new. For some people without D&D groups, the coming of a new edition is sometimes the only way to find new "gaming buddies," and they won't stir the wasp nest once they've been accepted, so they play 4E. Joining a new group and preaching immediate changes back to 3.5 would usually not work.
I'm glad I formed my main D&D group (yes, I have a secondary/backup group! ) three years ago, and that they are now heavily invested in 3.5...  Case in point, the latest one to join our group (4 months ago) has tried to convert us to 4E... and met with miserable failure!!! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2008 : 14:20:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Yeah, but by adding in all these class-specific options, they have added more complexity to the game -- while claiming to streamline it. In no prior edition of the game did I feel like a character simply didn't have enough class options.
Besides, if I want a nifty new power every level, I'll play WoW.
One more thing I forgot to mention--the overall presentation of these options uses a relatively large print (making it more readable and user-friendly, IMO), therefore taking up more space.
I disagree with you that the game is now more complex as opposed to streamlined. Every character regardless of class now uses the same progression table. I think it's also a good thing that taking any class will give you tons of options, whereas it used to be that some classes had more options and flexibility than others. If you disagree, that's fine though. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2008 : 14:22:28
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Just because I've kind of been waiting to point this out, I have indeed played the game. Its not more complicated, but its not simpler either. The complexity has shifted around. It will work for some people, but for others it won't. But its not demonstrably better than 3.5, and while the game itself is fine and may be just what some people are looking for, the marketing of 4e has claimed that its "fixes" many things that it doesn't so much "fix" as it just sidesteps and redefines.
And for what its worth, I have played it, and still much prefer 3.5.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2008 : 14:25:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
In prior editions of the game, all of the classes were present in one book. You could play any class, at any level, with nothing at all more than the PHB.
What about all the new base classes WotC added over the years? You still had to fish around in other sourcebooks if you wanted those. I'm just saying that adding new content in different books really isn't anything new.
Also, I would like to point out that the PHB didn't give you rules for "epic levels" (from what I remember, anyway). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2008 : 14:28:34
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
The PHBII? Well, I like the first one, so I plan to buy it. It'll probably have bards in it, which would be nice.
Admittedly, I haven't been as "up" on all the 4e core D&D rules developments, so I've likely missed the explanation as to why but... Why weren't Bards detailed in the PHB?
I don't want to answer for WotC, but it's highly possible that the design team hadn't worked all the "kinks" out of that class yet. Or perhaps there simply wasn't room for it in the first book, and WotC wanted to give other classes priority, for better or for worse.
At any rate, I was a bit sad about that myself, but the bard IS on its way. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2008 : 15:45:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Yeah, but by adding in all these class-specific options, they have added more complexity to the game -- while claiming to streamline it. In no prior edition of the game did I feel like a character simply didn't have enough class options.
Besides, if I want a nifty new power every level, I'll play WoW.
One more thing I forgot to mention--the overall presentation of these options uses a relatively large print (making it more readable and user-friendly, IMO), therefore taking up more space.
I disagree with you that the game is now more complex as opposed to streamlined. Every character regardless of class now uses the same progression table. I think it's also a good thing that taking any class will give you tons of options, whereas it used to be that some classes had more options and flexibility than others. If you disagree, that's fine though.
But to me, one of the major improvements 3.x had on 2E was the fact that characters now had so many options. I was happy with the amount of options available, and I didn't feel that there was a need for more.
And using the same XP table is fine -- gods, I recall the debates about that in 2E. And that was something changed in 3E.
I'm just saying that if in prior editions, a few pages was all I needed to play my character, I don't see how more pages -- thus more to read and go thru -- is necessarily streamlining things. Even if the playability of the class remains the same, the fact that there is more necessary support material adds to the overall complexity, it doesn't detract from it. |
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Players Handbook 2
