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Dragonhighlord
Acolyte
2 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Jun 2008 : 16:23:53
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Hi to all, I'm a knew member so please be gentle.
I'm a fan of the FR novels and I read somewhere that Mystra (midnight) was dead! Is there some novel that details this rather sad event? 
Thanks.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2008 : 16:28:35
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The event was briefly described in The Grand History of the Realms, but with very little in the way of details surrounding the event.
That work is a setting sourcebook, so it not neccessarily mutually-exclusive to the game or the novels.
Her death was the precusor and trigger-event to the 4th edition campaign setting set a century into the future, wherein Mystra no longer exists. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Jun 2008 18:59:22 |
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Dragonhighlord
Acolyte
2 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2008 : 16:32:11
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| Ah, thanks. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2008 : 17:55:36
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| -Rich Baker has stated that, as of right now, there will be no novels directly set in the in between of the 3e and 4e Forgotten Realms (during the Spellplague), so it is unlikely that, for now, there will be any additional literature going into more detail on this matter. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
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Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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BARDOBARBAROS
Senior Scribe
Greece
581 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2008 : 17:56:28
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| I think that wizards in a future novel will describe the story of mystra's death but this is only my opinion |
BARDOBARBAROS DOES NOT KILL.
HE DECAPITATES!!!
"The city changes, but the fools within it remain always the same" (Edwin Odesseiron- Baldur's gate 2) |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2008 : 19:01:22
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| I'm hoping it will be explained further in the 4E FRCS rather than just tossed aside as a thing of the past to be forgotten. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2008 : 19:05:30
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quote:
Originally posted by BARDOBARBAROS
I think that wizards in a future novel will describe the story of mystra's death but this is only my opinion
If so, it will most likely be in the form of a 'flash-back' rather then a 'current' story, as the lore in Evermeet was presented, or even Blackstaff, or the tidbits in EiH.
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-Rich Baker has stated that, as of right now, there will be no novels directly set in the in between of the 3e and 4e Forgotten Realms (during the Spellplague), so it is unlikely that, for now, there will be any additional literature going into more detail on this matter.
Except that Bruce Cordell IMMEDIATELY contradicted Rich in that last Podcast, and pointed out that HIS current novel series is THE exception.
Bruce Cordell was also incorrect there - both the Thay series and Steven Schend's next novel touch upon events that occur DURING the Spellplague, if I'm not mistaken.
So that statement by Rich may have been an initial plan on the designer's part, but like everything else, it was tossed out the window the moment it "got in the way".
No negativity here, BTW - I'd PREFER to know at least some of the details about that 'lost century'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 18 Jun 2008 19:06:19 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2008 : 20:47:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
I'm hoping it will be explained further in the 4E FRCS rather than just tossed aside as a thing of the past to be forgotten.
-Being that the current clatter from the designers is to keep things "blank" to allow DMs to "fill in the blanks", because detail is bad... |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 18 Jun 2008 : 20:50:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
If so, it will most likely be in the form of a 'flash-back' rather then a 'current' story, as the lore in Evermeet was presented, or even Blackstaff, or the tidbits in EiH.
-[i/Evermeet: Island of Elves isn't a flashback, per se. It's a book within a book. 
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Except that Bruce Cordell IMMEDIATELY contradicted Rich in that last Podcast, and pointed out that HIS current novel series is THE[/i] exception.
Bruce Cordell was also incorrect there - both the Thay series and Steven Schend's next novel touch upon events that occur DURING the Spellplague, if I'm not mistaken.
So that statement by Rich may have been an initial plan on the designer's part, but like everything else, it was tossed out the window the moment it "got in the way".
-So...confusing... |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31773 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2008 : 01:15:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
...and Steven Schend's next novel touch upon events that occur DURING the Spellplague, if I'm not mistaken.
That's correct.
From Steven himself:-
"...it's in 1479 Dalereckoning. Even with that time shift, there's lots of lore hidden in these pages to fill some backstories of the intervening times." |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
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Felen Enthelion
Acolyte
Italy
16 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2008 : 21:45:31
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Midnight's death is soooo sad. She was such a nice character in the avatar trilogy... and she decided to become a goddes only to stop Cyric...
The question is... without the Weave, how will wizards use raw magic without being consumed?
I hope the new sistem will make use of the Tree of Souls of Queen Amlaruil to create an alternative way for magic users to cast spells. In the second ed, if I remember well, it was strongly related to magic, and it has been planted on Toril in the recent years, hasn't it? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2008 : 22:06:48
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She doesn't have it anymore - It went to the North Pole (per Elaine Cunningham), and then was waylaid and brought to Cormanthor for the re-founding of Myth Drannor (as per Rich Baker).
Prince Laruil even lost his bride-to-be in scuffle... very sad. (as per the GHotR)
What would happen? Everyone would turn to Shar's Shadoweave, which doesn't seem to be effected, making her the most powerful goddess in the Realms and the ultimate BBG.
The flavor of the setting has gone from "Hope for a better future" to "hope I live until tomorrow".
If your a Mystra fan, it means your stuck in 3e... and is that really such a bad thing? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 19 Jun 2008 22:08:20 |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2008 : 22:08:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Felen Enthelion
Midnight's death is soooo sad. She was such a nice character in the avatar trilogy... and she decided to become a goddes only to stop Cyric...
The question is... without the Weave, how will wizards use raw magic without being consumed?
...
Magic users will use magic by reason of their players buying multiple new books to replace the many books which Hasbro sold them from 2004-2007 to replace the many books which they had bought to replace the 3.0 books which they bought from Wizards of the Coast to replace the many AD&D books which they bought from TSR.
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Felen Enthelion
Acolyte
Italy
16 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2008 : 22:36:00
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quote:
The flavor of the setting has gone from "Hope for a better future" to "hope I live until tomorrow".
If your a Mystra fan, it means your stuck in 3e... and is that really such a bad thing?
Well, I hope Shar will implode with her useless shadow weave.
From whot I ead on the other topics it seams unrealistic, but I wish the shadoweave will collpase with the destruction of the weave. It is a shadow of the original no? (and maybe Shar could be disintegrated too) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2008 : 22:57:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Felen Enthelion
From whot I ead on the other topics it seams unrealistic, but I wish the shadoweave will collpase with the destruction of the weave. It is a shadow of the original no? (and maybe Shar could be disintegrated too)
That was the original intent. It got changed by designer fiat. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2008 : 23:49:15
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| I think that the worst decision that WotC made with 4e was not listen to the Realms crowd. Only time will tell whether they will actually rue it or not. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
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Edited by - Hawkins on 19 Jun 2008 23:50:44 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2008 : 23:57:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Felen Enthelion
From whot I ead on the other topics it seams unrealistic, but I wish the shadoweave will collpase with the destruction of the weave. It is a shadow of the original no? (and maybe Shar could be disintegrated too)
That was the original intent. It got changed by designer fiat.
Then changed back...
and then finally re-changed again.
Very confusing, to say the least. At some point, it went from being dependent upon the Weave, literally 'leaning on it' for support, to being its own seperate entity, to being even more powerful then the Weave (IT survived, where the Weave did not), to be THE big thing in 4e, evolving into the multi-dimensional, transitive Plane known as the Shadowfel (and ate the Negative plane along the way as well).
I remember reading in the Paul Kemp novel about that Temple with all the 'Shadow Gods' in it, and Shar was paramount. I thought, "hey! It appears that Shar is the preminant Shadow-Deity in the Multi-verse!" I thought that was a rather strange way to represent Shar, with her 'overshadowing' all the other gods... NOW it makes some sense.
So she's in charge of the Shadowfel (former Shadow Weave), and that plane touches EVERY OTHER WORLD in the universe... even Ao is relagated to just Realmspace.
Next thing you know, we'll find out she's been the Lady of Pain all along.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Jun 2008 14:10:51 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 02:18:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
She doesn't have it anymore - It went to the North Pole (per Elaine Cunningham), and then was waylaid and brought to Cormanthor for the re-founding of Myth Drannor (as per Rich Baker).
Prince Laruil even lost his bride-to-be in scuffle... very sad. (as per the GHotR)
-And a certain someone wrote a very nice essay on that all. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 02:19:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Then changed back...
and then finally re-changed again.
Very confusing, to say the least. At some point, it went from being dependent upon the Weave, literally 'leaning on it' for support, to being its own seperate entity, to being even more powerful then the Weave (IT survived, where the Weave did not), to be THE big thing in 4e, evolving into the multi-dimensional, transitive Plane known as the Shadowfel (and ate the Negative plane along the way as well).
-Did you include in there that it's actually part of the Weave, but just a part that Mystra cannot access? The "itch you can't reach", so to speak... |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 14:20:07
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Well, that would have been its earliest incarnation, which would mean that Shar was literally "on Mystra's back" (where those 'itches' usually occur). That would make some sense, since Mystra was composed of parts of Selune and Shar, so her 'front' would be her 'light side', and her back (side? ) would be her 'Dark Side'. I can see Shar slowing regaining control of her 'lost' energy through the eons, such that the nature of the Shadow Weave slowly changed over time.
I had always felt their was something inheritantly wrong with all that, with Mystra and Shar appearing to be "two sides of the same coin", especially considering that in Realmspace, it was Selune and Shar that should have held that sort of juxtaposition.
The ONLY good I can see coming out of all of this 4e crap is that Selune now becomes Shar's opposite, like she's supposed to be. If she was able to gain back her lost energy from Mystra (and obviously Shar did, down through the centuries), then they should be on equal footing. I wouldn't mind seeing Selune take over Arcane Magic in some form, making her more like Hecate from Greek Myth.
The only problem I see with all of that is Aumanator, since Shar is supposed to represent primordial Darkness, and Selune is suppposed to represent primordial Light. Lathander was a bit more diverse in his focus, but a true 'Sun God' is a little odd for FR - I would have to assume that the Re(Ra) is finally gone, along with the rest of the Mulan Pantheon (except Baast - she's alreadfy been re-imagined for FR).
I may get flamed for this, but if they handle it right, I may actually like the 4e pantheon set-up better.
The world... Meh... they can keep it. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Jun 2008 16:56:00 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 15:04:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I remember reading in the Paul Kemp novel about that Temple with all the 'Shadow Gods' in it, and Shar was paramount. I thought, "hey! It appears that Shar is the preminant Shadow-Deity in the Multi-verse!" I thought that was a rather strange way to represent Shar, with her 'overshadowing' all the other gods... NOW it makes some sense.
Shar is not the foremost shadow deity in the multiverse.
quote:
So she's in charge of the Shadowfel (former Shadow Weave), and that plane touches EVERY OTHER WORLD in the universe... even Ao is relagated to just Realmspace.
So why is she not a core deity, then?
PS: Shar no longer controls the Shadow Weave, even though it still exists. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 15:44:04
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Personally, I just really wish they didn't touch upon the gods. IMO they just can't handle it, there's too much "cool" going on and not enough "well, this actually makes sense".
I mean really, it hurts my head to try and read about their decisions concerning the gods. It annoyed me in the 90's, angered me in the early 2000's and now I'm just done with it.
I'd LOVE to see a focus on the frickin churches. I mean, they really are what's important.
But whatever, I'll develop as much as I can for churches so I have something useful for my campaigns and just ignore whatever stupid antics they get the gods up to. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 16:52:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I had always felt their was something inheritantly wrong with all that, with Mystra and Shar appearing to be "two sides of the same coin", especially considering that in Realmspace, it was Selune and Shar that should have held that sort of juxtaposition.
-Agreed. Throughout the 3e run, the conflict between Shar and Mystra was put in the spotlight far too much, and too much of an emphasis was put on it, when that was really the lesser of Shar's conflicts, the major one being between her and Selūne. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 17:03:40
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Crazy Theories? 
That was in a canon novel!
Re-read that chapter, where there are statues to hundreds of 'Shadowy Gods' (including Mask) from other worlds, and the statue of Shar was the largest and central to the temple.
That would indicate some sort of over-lordship by Shar of the others, especially considering that temple itself was multi-planar.
And how do you know Shar isn't a Core God... going under another name? Hmmmmm? Didn't someone/something 'official' already mention that Lolth and Shar may in fact be the same being?
Sad part is, 85% of my "Crazy Theories" usually pan out. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Jun 2008 17:05:11 |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 17:46:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Re-read that chapter, where there are statues to hundreds of 'Shadowy Gods' (including Mask) from other worlds, and the statue of Shar was the largest and central to the temple.
That would indicate some sort of over-lordship by Shar of the others, especially considering that temple itself was multi-planar.
Well, who was viewing the temple? Was it a character view or a third person omniscient view?
If a character view then it's inherently flawed and doesn't have to mean much of anything.
Further, is it a temple of Shar? Is it some sort of "uber shadow temple"?
I wouldn't be surprised . . . by anything really. I have no idea what destination they are trying to get to (and I'm 99% sure they don't either) so I wouldn't be surprised if Shar became the FR version of the "uber shadow god" but I'd question the accuracy of any conclusions drawn from what was presented in the particular novel because of the questions above.  |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 20:13:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
That was in a canon novel!
Re-read that chapter, where there are statues to hundreds of 'Shadowy Gods' (including Mask) from other worlds, and the statue of Shar was the largest and central to the temple.
-This does not mean this:
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
That would indicate some sort of over-lordship by Shar of the others, especially considering that temple itself was multi-planar.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Sad part is, 85% of my "Crazy Theories" usually pan out.
-That's a bit inflated, if I do say so myself... |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 20:18:40
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True, but like I said, I thought it was rather strange myself, given the descriptions of the Temple (which is a Temple to Shadow itself, from what I gather, and not Shar).
We have to wait until August to see just how much the FR Pantheon aligns with the Core one - I have a very bad feeling that EVERYTHING unique to FR will be 'bolied down' into its Core version - they have said as much, by mentioning some gods were really others posing as FR gods.
Shar turning out to really be someone else not only makes sense, all things considered, but goes along with their overall plan of 'One rules to rule them all'. How different is FR going to be allowed to be, in a 4e world?
quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-That's a bit inflated, if I do say so myself...
You DARE to question me?! 
LOL
I would agree that those figures are a bit off... it will probably be closer to 99% once the FRCG comes out.
If you want to hear some of my REALLY CRAZY theories, we should talk about my RW ones.... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Jun 2008 20:33:39 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 20:19:07
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
Well, who was viewing the temple? Was it a character view or a third person omniscient view?
-Erevis Cale and his companions were in the temple. They only saw what they saw, however. And, of course, there is nothing to say that "big is better". |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 20:32:06
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Are you trying to say "size isn't everything?"
Because I know guys that say that...
Anyhow, I've already thought of at least a DOZEN reasons for that if the lore isn't changed, so its neither here nor there... I just thought it worth mentioning as a possibility.
Some of my theories range from 'the statue of the god of Shadow from the prime world the Temple is currently in is largest' to 'the statues sizes are determined by the god's power' (DR rating), and Shar would probably be the one of the most powerful - on most worlds, the shadow-god isn't nearly so powerful.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Jun 2008 16:01:27 |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 20:45:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
Well, who was viewing the temple? Was it a character view or a third person omniscient view?
-Erevis Cale and his companions were in the temple. They only saw what they saw, however. And, of course, there is nothing to say that "big is better".
I think that's actually one I read. Something like the master of the temple was the first chosen of Mask or some such nonsense?
Anyhow, I don't think the novel was written with the 4E cosmology in mind, I can't imagine it was anyhow. At least if it's the one I read. |
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Mystra
