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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 22:28:17
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No, I already checked, and it was written before the 'secret meeting' first happened three years ago concerning 4e.
However, it does seem to have been the trend in 3e to keep building Shar up more and more as some sort of Uber-threat, and I believe Mr. Kemp played into this by simply taking it to the next level, providing hints that Shar may be even more then she seems.
I would hazard to guess he was just tossing out a cool visual and "WTF?" moment to readers, but I wouldn't be surprised if other designers took what he wrote and ran with it, considering their desire to unify everything in 4e.
In another thread (in this same sub-forum) I have shown how the Weave must have been even more powerful and all-invasive then we ever thought, and Brian james (who is privy to such things) has made a comment much to that effect.
It only makes sense that both Shar and Mystra were multi-spheric deities, and that their 'eternal struggle' was an on-going war taking place across the planes.
Now the Weave has fallen, magic everywhere has changed, the planes have re-aligned, and the Shadowfel has risen from the ashes of the old Shadow Weave.
I always felt FR was THE most important world in the universe, and if all of my postulating turns out to be true, then that was indeed so. That might even be a reason why they felt FR needed to be done first for 4e - it will explain a lot of what they plan on doing to the other settings. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 22:37:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
It only makes sense that both Shar and Mystra were multi-spheric deities, and that their 'eternal struggle' was an on-going war taking place across the planes.
You mean to say Shar and Selune, right? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 22:49:26
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Most likely all three, since it gets confusing as to who Shar was really at war with or hated more.
If anything, Mystra turns out to be more of a 'cease fire' between the two primordial deities, and with her destruction (Shar 'broke' the treaty), the two Elder deities are at it again.
Either way, there is now some evidence that both Shar and Mystra (NOT selune... as of yet) exerted some influence outside of the Realms.
Now... if they push the War of Light and Darkness even further back, and made it even more primordial (pre-dating Realmspace itself), then Ao also gets a boost, because he now becomes "the one, True God".
Except... he did have a boss of his own at the end of that novel...
I wish Gray Richardson was still around... I loved having these kinds of discussions with him.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Jun 2008 22:51:04 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2008 : 02:06:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Shar turning out to really be someone else not only makes sense, all things considered, but goes along with their overall plan of 'One rules to rule them all'. How different is FR going to be allowed to be, in a 4e world?
-If all of that is true, that that would seem to invalidate the commonly accepted creation myth.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
You DARE to question me?! 
LOL
-Not only do I dare, but I do so on a somewhat regular basis. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2008 : 02:08:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Are you try to say "size isn't everything?"
-No, I'm saying that the size of her statue does not necessarily notate importance. Especially with a bunch of shadowy deities, where the ability to not be seen and such is key.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Because I know guys that say that...
-And, ironically enough, they all drive large SUVs. I wonder why...? |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2008 : 00:50:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And how do you know Shar isn't a Core God... going under another name?
Well, Shar definitely isn't the Raven Queen (unaligned goddess of death and winter), the core deity who seems to be one of the foremost residents--if not the foremost resident--of the core Shadowfell. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 23 Jun 2008 00:50:19 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2008 : 16:16:10
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True, but gods do have different portfolios from world to world (Tyr, for example), and that was well established in 2e's Planescape products. Normally the god has similar things in it's porfolio, but not neccessarily the same exact stuff. Even in 3e, we had two different sets of Egyptian gods (the Pharaonic, and the Mulhorandi).
Death is part of the Shadowfel, and the designers have already clearly stated thet the Shadowfel 'ate' the Negative plane in 4e, so it stands to reason Shar will have some 'Undead' stuff in her portfolio when the FRCG comes out.
Of course I'm just guessing here (like usual), but I wouldn't at all be surprised if Shar turned out to be an alias for the the Raven Queen. All she need do is eat Kelimvor (a boring god, easy to get rid of) and Auril (Whom she may have been all along, as a way of 'horning in' on Umberlee and Talos's 'Storm' aspects).
Never underestimate the power of 4e to change stuff. 
Your basing your presumption on the 3e Shar, who may be very different from the 4e version. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Jun 2008 21:44:24 |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2008 : 17:51:05
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| I am still waiting for their profound and logical explanation of HOW they are going to go about trimming down the gods (I still don't find their WHY convincing, but I think that I have given up on that). However, I learned to expect disappointment now. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2008 : 18:20:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
True, but gods do have different portfolios from world to world (Tyr, for example), and that was well established in 2e's Planescape products. Normally the god has similar things in it's porfolio, but not neccessarily the same exact stuff. Even in 3e, we had two different sets of Egyptian gods (the Pharaonic, and the Mulhorandi).
Death is part of the Shadowfel, and the designers have already clearly stated thet the Shadowfel 'ate' the Negative plane in 4e, so it stands to reason Shar will have some 'Undead' stuff in her portfolio when the FRCG comes out.
Of course I'm just guessing here (like usual), but I wouldn't at all be surprised if Shar turned out to be an alias for the the Raven Queen. All she need do is eat Kalimvor (a boring god, easy to get rid of) and Auril (Whom she may have been all along, as a way of 'horning in' on Umberlee and Talos's 'Storm' aspects).
Never underestimate the power of 4e to change stuff.
Your basing your presumption on the 3e Shar, who may be very different from the 4e version.
I'm not making any presumptions here. You suggested that Shar might really be a core deity. Maybe, but I think a supposition like that is a bit pointless, because with the logic you're using, we might as well wonder whether or not Sune is really Zehir, or Talos is really Pelor (after all, it's not impossible, right?). It's a "what-if" that could be true or untrue, but the evidence so far suggests it's untrue, and therefore I think it's irrelevant.
For that matter, I don't think Shar and the Raven Queen are even all that similar. The Raven Queen doesn't seem too interested in darkness. She is a goddess of fate and doesn't believe people should try to avoid their fate (which is eventually death). She's not evil, and if the old alignment system were being used, she'd probably be Lawful Neutral or True Neutral. IIRC, she's not the goddess of undeath (which is, after all, something of an avoidance of death, and I think Vecna has that portfolio). Shar seems to be much more similar to Zehir than the Raven Queen (and even then, there are still significant differences, such as Zehir's interest in snakes). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 23 Jun 2008 18:29:11 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2008 : 21:56:49
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
I am still waiting for their profound and logical explanation of HOW they are going to go about trimming down the gods (I still don't find their WHY convincing, but I think that I have given up on that). However, I learned to expect disappointment now.
-Uh...It was always like that...
-Look! A Warforged! Get after him!  |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jun 2008 : 21:59:08
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Heh... Rich only said there could be Warforged if you want, not that there were.
Even though they're in the 4e MM.
Anyhow, while I feel everything you say is correct Rinon, I still think that at least some of the FR gods will be rolled into the Core Gods (as aliases), and The Raven Queen - while far from perfect - is the closest fit to Shar.
Reading throught the new gods, I keep see similar stuff, like that a group of Core Gods live in the "Bright City"... it sounds eerily similar to Brightwater...
However, I could very easily say that Shar may be an Alias for Lolth (which several other people have already postulated)... except she lives in the DemonWeb Pits inside the Abyss, and I believe Shar's connection to the Shadowfel excludes that possibility for that reason.
4e Shar MUST live in the Shadowfel, and the only one I know of that lives there in Core is The Raven Queen.
Besides, she looks the part - and her sudden 'new' interest in Prophesy (The Dark Roll of Years) places her conveniently within reach of having 'Fate' in her portfolio. Note that they added all of that stuff about Shar and Prophesy in the GHotR and at the END of 3e?
I find anything new added to the GhotR suspect, and placed there as a 4e 'stepping stone'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2008 : 16:01:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Anyhow, while I feel everything you say is correct Rinon, I still think that at least some of the FR gods will be rolled into the Core Gods (as aliases), and The Raven Queen - while far from perfect - is the closest fit to Shar.
Well, on that, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I still think Vecna (who is the god of undead, I checked) and/or Zehir are more similar to Shar than the Raven Queen. They are both evil and at least have some portfolios in common--Vecna's secrets, Zehir's darkness. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Mystra
