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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 03:33:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'll disagree with that last statement. I'm familiar with 1E, 2E, and 3.x. 1E and 2E are pretty much identical -- 2E is more of a 1.5E than a true edition until itself. And 3.x just codified more, simplified things, and gave us more choices. The rules may have been changed, but it still felt pretty much the same.
And in my opinion, the changes from 1/2E to 3.xE were as much fundamental than 3.xE to 4E  . |
Edited by - Skeptic on 26 Aug 2008 03:34:45 |
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Sanishiver
Senior Scribe
USA
476 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2008 : 06:26:39
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| 3E took out THACO. That alone was a big, rant-worthy change to many back in the day. |
09/20/2008: Tiger Army at the Catalyst in Santa Cruz. You wouldn’t believe how many females rode it out in the pit. Santa Cruz women are all of them beautiful. Now I know to add tough to that description.
6/27/2008: WALL-E is about the best damn movie Pixar has ever made. It had my heart racing and had me rooting for the good guy.
9/9/2006: Dave Mathews Band was off the hook at the Shoreline Amphitheater.
Never, ever read the game books too literally, or make such assumptions that what is omitted cannot be. Bad DM form, that.
And no matter how compelling a picture string theory paints, if it does not accurately describe our universe, it will be no more relevant than an elaborate game of Dungeons and Dragons. --paragraph 1, chapter 9, The Elegant Universe by Brian Greene |
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Ikki
Seeker
Finland
57 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2008 : 23:17:09
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Nope, no 4thed for me.
Browsed the book over a weekend and nothing awoke save a "err.. how about no?"
Still rules dont game make, and i have tried freeform no rules games too.. just storytelling :p
But IF i get a ruleset.. and i have the old runequest, 2300 ad, cyberpunk, twilight 2020, nephilim, wasrhamme fantasy, astra (finnish horror), cthulhu 3 & 5.. and row upon row of ADD -spelljammer, birthright, planescape.. fr.. & 3+3,5.. and those red-blue-green-black boxes..
..then that rule system really should support the story or the game, what is happening in that little imaginary world. And nothing i have seen in 4thed adds anything of real value.
Vancian had already been reworked thru sorcerers and completely replaced by warlocks.
Healing has always been available, once it was called potions of extra-healing.. and save vs die.. well.. if you used those a lot you were quickly out of players ;) In the meantime everyone became a jedi-apprentice on saga-krynn. |
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Nerfed2Hell
Senior Scribe
USA
387 Posts |
Posted - 21 Sep 2008 : 16:51:53
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There's so many things about 4e that I dislike that I and my gaming group have unimously agreed to stay with D&D 3.x (house ruled all over the place, borrowing heavily from Unearthed Arcana). Early on when 4e was announced, I had considered buying 4e Realms books just for lore and such, but now that I've seen where they've decided to go with it, I won't even be doing that.
I'm not thrilled with the idea of advancing the timeline a hundred years, and most of the other changes (killing off various gods, the whole POL thing, getting rid of the heart and soul of the setting with the NPCs, and so on) just leave with extremely negative things to say... which I'll refrain from sharing here. ;) |
Some people are like a slinky... not good for much, but when you push them down the stairs, it makes you smile. |
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Kosta the Lich
Acolyte
United Kingdom
11 Posts |
Posted - 22 Sep 2008 : 13:21:54
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| I voted no. The 2e was running for more than a decade and the 3e was only around for 7 years or so. Also I think the the new Realms are tied to the new rules and I don't buy the new Realms... |
Minsc and Boo stand ready to polish my boots. |
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Ikki
Seeker
Finland
57 Posts |
Posted - 26 Sep 2008 : 08:43:46
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Now, a grimmer world wouldnt be that bad tho.
So why not a 10 year shift, and mystra died a month ago or such.
Skip all the spellplague bs, well some places come crashing down and such.. but that would be the extent of problems. With chosens dead, much good has left and evil takes over.
Perhaps shades as a background evil, and the sythillisian model exported elsewhere... just on a massive scale, and this time aided by magic, while the goodie twoshoes are gone.
This still leaves the majority of npc:s and places intact and a world everyone can mostly recognice.
But no, they decided to do away with everything in the fr that made it fr. Even the logo is different..
Was it really selling that poorly?
Okie, so it likely didnt sell very well for these 2 years when they werent making any products, but before..?!? |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2008 : 07:40:13
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I pre-ordered the $E core books already intending to check out and cherry-pick the new rules, as others have done. There are a few changes in the mechanics that I like, mostly to do with hit point calculation and death at -(Con). Really, if you have a natural Con score of less than 10, you shouldn't be adventuring anyway. 
That said, after actually playing a session with the $E ruleset, I haven't taken the books off my shelf since. I would try to sell them, but I suspect it would be difficult... as I've already made the offer public and had no interest. 
As far as $E Realms are concerned... my guess would be that someone in a suit at Hasbro said, "this Ebe-whatsit is selling well. Make all your stuff look just like that." As a result, we have the Misbegotten Realms. I've ranted in detail about the changes in numerous other places on these forums, and if you've been following said rants, you know exactly how I feel. 
I hope Mace Hammerhand doesn't feel like I'm trying to upstage him for rant quality... but I've read *his* rants on $E and there should be no danger of him thinking that. I've been rather subdued on most occasions by comparison... which isn't to say that I lack conviction on this issue, just that I probably have too much restraint for my own good.
As you might expect, I have no intention of getting the $E Realms books. I felt unclean after browsing through the new FRCS at the bookstore, and I felt compelled to wash my hands before touching anything else. 
That's all I have to say here; I've repeated myself in some detail elsewhere in these forums. It was very therapeutic, and thank you to all who have read my entire $E rants in all their excruciating detail. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Ionik Knight
Learned Scribe
USA
222 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2008 : 15:41:30
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Nothing in 4ed fits with the Realms I intend to campaign in.
Ionik Knight |
Fools to right of them,
Jesters to left of them,
Clowns in front of them
Pun'd and parody'd. |
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Orn
Acolyte
Canada
12 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2009 : 19:52:56
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If I still had people to play with I'd buy 4th edition. My old group had too many problems with 3rd and 3.5 editions.
For a somewhat inept group such as ours, 3rd edition didn't work out. We found it very slow paced, too gear dependent (dm was bad at assigning gear), and the combat rules seemed way worse than 4th edition.
3rd edition spell casters often ran out of all spells, and had to resort to a cross bow. Melee characters did ok, but they often ended up in a wrestling match ect which we could never quite figure out (or remember how to. 4th editions seems to solve all or most of these problems. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3253 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2009 : 20:58:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Orn
If I still had people to play with I'd buy 4th edition. My old group had too many problems with 3rd and 3.5 editions.
For a somewhat inept group such as ours, 3rd edition didn't work out. We found it very slow paced, too gear dependent (dm was bad at assigning gear), and the combat rules seemed way worse than 4th edition.
3rd edition spell casters often ran out of all spells, and had to resort to a cross bow. Melee characters did ok, but they often ended up in a wrestling match ect which we could never quite figure out (or remember how to. 4th editions seems to solve all or most of these problems.
You may want to check out Pathfinder since they corrected some of those very same issues. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Raith
Seeker
USA
76 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2009 : 22:24:09
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| I voted no. 4e completely decimates the Realms, and it's set up more like an MMORPG than what I consider to be Dungeons and Dragons. |
"Power and dominion are taken by the Will. By divine right Hail and Kill!" |
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skychrome
Senior Scribe
713 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2009 : 00:01:18
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I cannot decide.
What I have seen of 4e left me with very mixed feelings. Some changes to Faerun are interesting, but others left me in a really bad mood because it feels and especially looks like World of Warcraft.
On the other hand WoTC will not change everything back only because lots of dedicated fans do not buy 4e.
So I'd rather say: capture the flag! If the community gets more involved with 4e and shapes it away from Warcraft more towards what 3.x used to be, that might be much more pragmatic and efficient than resistance. After all 4e has just started its evolution. Guess there is quite some space left to push things right again and get more oldschool feeling.
Honestly, I have not decided yet what to do about it. |
"You make an intriguing offer, one that is very tempting. It would seem that I have little alternative than to answer thusly: DISINTEGRATE!" Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick 625 |
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Neil Bishop
Learned Scribe
Singapore
100 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2009 : 17:24:08
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I voted yes.
I've gone with both the 4E ruleset and the 4E version of the Realms. Do I consider the 4E version the "real" Realms? No, not at all but I've gone with utility:
- My players can use the character generator to create and update their characters quickly and accurately.
- The Player's Guide is actually a guide for players so my players can actually freely read and use it.
- Game stats take me so much less time it is not funny and that allows me to spend more time crafting plots, subplots, NPCs etc....
In due course, I suspect I will go back to the "real" Realms but continuing to use the 4E ruleset. Oh and my version of the "real" Realms (and YMMV) is the 3E FRCS, the year 1372 DR and no events from the novels. I have my own post-1372 DR timeline.
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Regards
NXB |
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Amraz one arm
Acolyte
Netherlands
42 Posts |
Posted - 24 May 2009 : 06:00:53
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I voted no.
Easy enough, my friend and a fellow-DM has already purchased the products.
He actually bought them from Ebay. From a guy somewhere in his early twenties.
Who wanted to try and play the game, after years of WoW.
To both my friend and mine surprise, the guy put them on sale because:"he couldnt make heads or tails from the rules, it was too difficult for him....
He went back to his WoW. And my friend bought the books on the cheap.
Since my friend doesn't DM on faerun, I can safely say I wont play 4ed in the Realms.
But I'll give the 4ed a change, as soon as our 2 other campaigns run down.
But I'll never DM the 4ed, any of my realms adventures will be in 3,5
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"You smell human to me." |
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Fisk
Acolyte
13 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2009 : 23:54:33
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| I don't even have that much of 3.0 and 3.5, so I think it'd be a waste of money to buy 4th. |
Fisk |
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Antareana
Seeker
Germany
59 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jun 2009 : 18:04:42
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trying it out now, but will play in the "old Realms"
Until now it seems more even among the classes, but I miss the non-battle-utilities a bit. And rituals are way too expensive. Plus the ability requirements for many feats are way too high for some classes.
A huge plus goes to the attack/defense system, the skill system and skill encounters. And the tactical elements are way more important.
Had to laugh at Amraz' guy... D&D mathematics/rules are WAY more comprehensible than WoW's may ever be |
It is all just a past and future secret
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Auzoros
Seeker
Australia
97 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2009 : 16:23:07
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| My answer is NO. No it's not the Forgotten Realms I know and love. No I don't like the WoW feel I get from it. No I won't convert to an inferior product. No it won't buy into the designs of an uncaring corporation. |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2009 : 20:45:04
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It's been about a year since I invested in five sets of the 4E rulebooks for myself and my friends.
Since then I think I've gotten the full return on my investment in terms of both what it cost me to set us up and more basic things like fun. (Why play, if not to have fun, right?)
One thing I've decided for 4th Edition D&D and the 4E Realms is that I'm not going to buy any of the new character books. Unlike 3E for which I bought everything under the sun, my purchases for this edition are going to be limited to a DDI subscription and DM-only books. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2009 : 21:05:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
It's been about a year since I invested in five sets of the 4E rulebooks for myself and my friends.
Since then I think I've gotten the full return on my investment in terms of both what it cost me to set us up and more basic things like fun. (Why play, if not to have fun, right?)
One thing I've decided for 4th Edition D&D and the 4E Realms is that I'm not going to buy any of the new character books. Unlike 3E for which I bought everything under the sun, my purchases for this edition are going to be limited to a DDI subscription and DM-only books.
Maybe a bit of topic, but I am just curious, as you have said that you enjoy all editions of the game, do you stick to one edition at a time or do you at times run games with the older editions just for fun? If so, do you see much difference in how the different rules influence and adjust the Realms in the game?
Hopefully no one finds this question to be an entrance to another 4ed. bashing. |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2009 : 21:38:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
It's been about a year since I invested in five sets of the 4E rulebooks for myself and my friends.
Since then I think I've gotten the full return on my investment in terms of both what it cost me to set us up and more basic things like fun. (Why play, if not to have fun, right?)
One thing I've decided for 4th Edition D&D and the 4E Realms is that I'm not going to buy any of the new character books. Unlike 3E for which I bought everything under the sun, my purchases for this edition are going to be limited to a DDI subscription and DM-only books.
As an aside, I think that's one of the brilliant things about the DDI - the utilities allow a DM to stay up to date and on top of everything and anything a player might want to use, without shelling out $600 for all that themselves. I can't say I don't mind not having to go through 3e's arms race all over again. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2009 : 22:17:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
It's been about a year since I invested in five sets of the 4E rulebooks for myself and my friends.
Since then I think I've gotten the full return on my investment in terms of both what it cost me to set us up and more basic things like fun. (Why play, if not to have fun, right?)
One thing I've decided for 4th Edition D&D and the 4E Realms is that I'm not going to buy any of the new character books. Unlike 3E for which I bought everything under the sun, my purchases for this edition are going to be limited to a DDI subscription and DM-only books.
As an aside, I think that's one of the brilliant things about the DDI - the utilities allow a DM to stay up to date and on top of everything and anything a player might want to use, without shelling out $600 for all that themselves. I can't say I don't mind not having to go through 3e's arms race all over again.
Not to be negative, but I'm not sure that's such a huge bargain. To stay on top, you've got to stay subscribed. And the longer you're subscribed, the more you pay. Depending on how long it is before they hit us with 5E, you could conceivably pay the same amount for what is essentially the rental of content you could have otherwise purchased. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2009 : 22:19:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
It's been about a year since I invested in five sets of the 4E rulebooks for myself and my friends.
Since then I think I've gotten the full return on my investment in terms of both what it cost me to set us up and more basic things like fun. (Why play, if not to have fun, right?)
One thing I've decided for 4th Edition D&D and the 4E Realms is that I'm not going to buy any of the new character books. Unlike 3E for which I bought everything under the sun, my purchases for this edition are going to be limited to a DDI subscription and DM-only books.
As an aside, I think that's one of the brilliant things about the DDI - the utilities allow a DM to stay up to date and on top of everything and anything a player might want to use, without shelling out $600 for all that themselves. I can't say I don't mind not having to go through 3e's arms race all over again.
Not to be negative, but I'm not sure that's such a huge bargain. To stay on top, you've got to stay subscribed. And the longer you're subscribed, the more you pay. Depending on how long it is before they hit us with 5E, you could conceivably pay the same amount for what is essentially the rental of content you could have otherwise purchased.
With subscriptions to Dragon, Dungeon, and a great suite of utilities included in there, I think I'm going to come out in the end. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3253 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2009 : 22:24:05
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| I think Wooly's point was that if or when 5E comes, all you'll have left from DDI is the downloaded Dragon and Dungeon articles. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Christopher_Rowe
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
879 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2009 : 22:35:02
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| We'll also have the use of the utilities and the utility of the online materials for all that time, too, though. We're not only buying discrete products (magazine issues), but also getting software and services while we're subscribed. I'm with Arivia--I mean, I still buy all the books and can't even use the character builder or the new (as of today) monster builder, but even only using the magazines and Compendium it's a pretty good entertainment bargain for me, anyway. |
My Realms novel, Sandstorm, is now available for ordering. |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jul 2009 : 22:41:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I think Wooly's point was that if or when 5E comes, all you'll have left from DDI is the downloaded Dragon and Dungeon articles.
Like Christopher said, the utilities that enable exactly the cost saving I'm talking about are downloadable and will work (ignoring DRM issues beyond the scope of this) in perpetuity. And I'm getting all of this for under the cost of 2 supplements a year (say Arcane Power and Divine Power, for example.)
Edit: To make a comparison, I get the exact same utility for a 4e game (if not more) from a DDI subscription as I would on a dollars-for-dollars basis in Pathfinder subscriptions for Pathfinder. |
Edited by - Arivia on 30 Jul 2009 22:46:13 |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2009 : 12:28:04
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Hello Jorkens,
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Maybe a bit of topic, but I am just curious, as you have said that you enjoy all editions of the game, do you stick to one edition at a time or do you at times run games with the older editions just for fun? If so, do you see much difference in how the different rules influence and adjust the Realms in the game?
Since Fourth Edition came out, my group opted to alternate weekly games. So we play Third Edition in the Realms one week and Fourth Edition in the Realms the next week. The campaigns are linked, with some of the characters being direct descendents of the older (edition) characters.
Your question is a great one. I mean the Realms have always been directly influenced by the D&D rules (IMNSHO this is a fact that even the veteran scribes at Candlekeep tend to forget, especially when levying criticism at the latest incarnation of the setting), but have we ever seen such influence taken to the nth degree as the Spellplague did?
During play, things seem the same on the surface. You have characters, NPCs, treasure, encounters, monsters, attack rolls, damage, etc.
But if you go even one step deeper, then big differences are obvious. Consider the new races. A playable character race isn't a rule per se, but the options are different then before and each of those races (Drabonborn and Genasi come to mind) has a big new footprint in the Realms. During play I feel the need to take pains to account for how Dragonborn, Genasi and Eladrin are different. --note this doesn't bother me, I'm just 100% aware that I can't present the 4E Realms the same during play.
Another difference I see is in the mechanics. Third Edition D&D was about options. It was about being able to express characters and NPCs, magic items, monsters and traps through the rules. It was a commitment to using the same mechanics for player and DM alike. What I liked about this was how I could take the most wild and fantastic parts of the Realms and put them front and center during play. Also I could draw on superlative third party sources for new monsters, magic items, inspiration and adventures, knowing it would all fit together nicely in my Third Edition Realms Campaign (and it did, let me tell you).
As a 4E DM (and not a 4E player) I don't get the same good vibe with 4E. While my players have tons of options for character creation including several Realms-themed options thanks to the Player's Guide, they can't multi-class quite the same as before and many of the options are limited to their powers and to making decisions about what Paragon Path to follow. But unlike them I don't get to use quite the same rules to make my Realms NPCs. That's a disconnect for me, even though I know WotC was just trying to make things easier on the DM.
And though I can see practical, rules based reasons for why magic items, magic item creation and spell casting were all changed (some spells are now rituals, others not, while magic items have multiple levels and variable based effects contingent on that level), to me it all feels a little too generic. Last but not least the third party support just isn't there.
I don't know that I've answered your question, but I hope you'll conclude I gave a good try at it. |
Edited by - Mr_Miscellany on 06 Aug 2009 14:22:14 |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3253 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2009 : 13:58:51
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It's posts like that, Mr. Misc, that remind me why I like you.
Seriously though, I personally don't lump 4th Edition and the 4th Edition Realms together and dislike it. I have the same 'rules disconnect' that you discuss regarding the 4th Edition rules. If invited to a game, I might play it, but it doesn't feel right for my idea of D&D (much like how I don't like playing World of Darkness games). The dislike I have for the changes wrought on the new Realms has nothing to do with the 'crunch' and entirely to do with the 'fluff'. I just don't like the story direction. Some elements are interesting, but even those I'd rather have gone another way. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36968 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2009 : 14:29:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
It's posts like that, Mr. Misc, that remind me why I like you.
Seriously though, I personally don't lump 4th Edition and the 4th Edition Realms together and dislike it. I have the same 'rules disconnect' that you discuss regarding the 4th Edition rules. If invited to a game, I might play it, but it doesn't feel right for my idea of D&D (much like how I don't like playing World of Darkness games). The dislike I have for the changes wrought on the new Realms has nothing to do with the 'crunch' and entirely to do with the 'fluff'. I just don't like the story direction. Some elements are interesting, but even those I'd rather have gone another way.
I want to echo this statement. I fully dislike both 4E and what's been done to the Realms -- but I don't consider them to be one and the same. 4E is not my game system, and though I will complain about it if given the opportunity, I don't complain about it that much.
I hate what's been done to the Realms because I find it entirely illogical and unnecessary. I hate that changes were made to cater to those who will never be happy. I hate that changes were made to rectify mistaken impressions that were created inhouse, and which I fully expect them to repeat. And quite honestly, I think that these changes were going to be made anyway, and that a new ruleset was just a convenient excuse. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2009 : 14:34:36
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For all that I said earlier, I want to stress that I *like* being a 4E Realms DM. If I can link this to what you/Ashe mention about fluff dislikes, I view the overall story changes as where I get to shine as a DM.
For all its faults, 4E is simple enough and similar enough to 3E that I don't need to spend much time at all thinking about rules. I also use published adventures which -for all their wonky layouts- are pretty self-contained and complete.
This means I get to spend more DM-time away from play thinking about the adventure story, the characters and how it all fits into the strange new Realms we play in. Since the two campaigns I run are linked, that's another layer of story I get to think about and a means to keep my players hooked on the game. |
Edited by - Mr_Miscellany on 06 Aug 2009 14:36:35 |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 06 Aug 2009 : 16:32:18
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| I am not trying to be inflammatory here, but weren't you (Mr_Miscellany) one of the anti-4e Realms dissidents on the WotC forums way back before it was released? If I am remembering correctly, what swayed you to the other side? |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
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Edited by - Hawkins on 06 Aug 2009 16:33:31 |
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Will you buy the 4th Ed.?
