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Fire Wraith
Acolyte
USA
37 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Jul 2008 : 21:54:34
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
If for nothing else, much of the flavor of monsters and the cosmology were changed in 4e (I too am just talking about the core, and not about FR).
Some of these flavor changes I like (some of the planar ideas are interesting), some of them I'm ambivalent about, and others I downright dislike (Succubi as devils... eh...)
Combat definitely feels like it requires a mapboard and miniatures. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, but it is a limitation.
Yes, 3.0 broke or radically changed many of the conventions of D&D, but the more important difference in overall 'feel' was negligible. A mage in 3.0 was still doing much the same thing as his/her 2e counterpart was. (Sorcerers were new as a core class, but had previously been around in 2e - even Baldur's Gate allowed Sorcerer as a main class, in the Throne of Bhaal expansion, under 2e rules) Clerics, Fighters, etc, were all doing the same things that they had done before. Rogues worked a little differently, but the merging of the proficiency system with thief skills made a lot of sense.
Playing a 4e character, though, felt (to me) like it bears about as much resemblance to its D&D counterpart as any vaguely similar class/profession in another game system did. My 4e Ranger felt like he shared more similarities to my WoW Hunter than he did to a 3.x Ranger. Of course, that's just my take on it - and it's not necessarily a bad thing, either.
Overall, I don't think 4e is necessarily an inherently bad system, it's just different. It's not what I would likely choose for tabletop gaming - though I do think it will likely translate much better into an MMO than 3.x has. |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 16:29:54
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For me the changes in style and feel are too big to buy anything from 4th edition. A few weeks ago I wanted to give them the benfit of a doubt and buy the core books, but after flipping through the pages of the PHB I put it down again and canceled that idea. The book is badly designed (and that is what I do for a living) compared with 3rd edition.
I also dont know anyone around my age here in Berlin who does not hate 4th edition with a passion, but then I also think old-time-roleplayers are more intelligent than average due to a lot of practice in trying to solve unusual problems. Nowadays kids arent really that bright because they are growing up with the computer and have a lot less "real experience" and are certainly less likely to become true roleplayers. I had one "kid" (around age 10) buy a pack of D&D Miniatures "fully compatible with 4th edition" while I was in the shop flipping though the 4th edition PHB and he was all glassy-eyed and not at all responding to his surroundings (and to the "have fun with it" from the shopkeeper).
IMO THIS hits it dead on. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 17:33:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
IMO THIS hits it dead on.
Lol.  |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 19:53:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
IMO THIS hits it dead on.
Wow!
That's perfect. (Beak of Smiting +2) |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 19:58:43
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| I've long thought that Wizards' best gamble is to seriously market to the many adults who read fantasy fiction, watch fantasy TV but simply don't know what roleplaying games are. Positioning D&D as a youth fad dooms it to cyclical stasis or decline. But that would be much better than doing neither, and apparently the plan is to launch 4E then start advertising it beyond die-hard gamers months later when the original impetus has worn off. |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 20:15:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
I've long thought that Wizards' best gamble is to seriously market to the many adults who read fantasy fiction, watch fantasy TV but simply don't know what roleplaying games are. Positioning D&D as a youth fad dooms it to cyclical stasis or decline. But that would be much better than doing neither, and apparently the plan is to launch 4E then start advertising it beyond die-hard gamers months later when the original impetus has worn off.
They are marketing D&D to the "instant reward crowd" and thats the kiddies who havent broadened their horizon to the possibility of true roleplaying. It works for WoW so it should and probably does work for D&D.
Marketing plastic miniatures of questionable quality (and healthiness - since they are prolly made in china and even Mattel had to recall some Barbie dolls due to bad chemicals in them) probably wont work as well with people who are older because they know they can simply substitute something different for a monster if they dont have a miniature for it. Our DM did that with little wooden figures and it didnt matter at all.
The Alexandrian has nicely argued about skills and how 4th edition removed lots of skills and non-combat skill uses while adding combat skill uses to some skills. This shows what the edition is focusing on (miniature battles) and what it wont show (roleplaying and good DMing for roleplaying) to people who are new to the game.
The bad part about it is that you stop children from exploring other options and developing their imagination if you tell them "you need the correct minatures to play". I know WotC doesnt do that directly, but adding something like "compatible for 4th edition" on the D&D minis suggests that others are incompatible. Its the same bad development which kids, who watch too much TV and read too few books or which are outside and play too rarely, have. "Real world experience" is important and television or computer games are no substitute. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 20:36:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
They are marketing D&D to the "instant reward crowd" and thats the kiddies who havent broadened their horizon to the possibility of true roleplaying.
Where? |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 20:37:54
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| Thanks for the link to The Alexandrian. It's sad that they've done away with so many skills (which have to be recreated according to The Alexandrian). When I DM-ed online using NWN skills were always useful. I recall that I even managed to code a few gambling games using skills, which were fun. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Fire Wraith
Acolyte
USA
37 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 21:42:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
I've long thought that Wizards' best gamble is to seriously market to the many adults who read fantasy fiction, watch fantasy TV but simply don't know what roleplaying games are. Positioning D&D as a youth fad dooms it to cyclical stasis or decline. But that would be much better than doing neither, and apparently the plan is to launch 4E then start advertising it beyond die-hard gamers months later when the original impetus has worn off.
I agree. Ironically, that is exactly part of the crowd that plays WoW, and the core demographic that really makes WoW its money. It's not the preteen kids - it's the adults. Most of the people I play WoW with are of college age or older, have jobs, families, etc...
...and more importantly, have significant disposable income 
That's not to say D&D shouldn't try and "hook them while they're young." I first got interested in D&D as a kid, and never looked back. However, it shouldn't be the focus demographic, for a variety of reasons already stated by others. |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 22:52:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
quote:
Originally posted by Pandora
They are marketing D&D to the "instant reward crowd" and thats the kiddies who havent broadened their horizon to the possibility of true roleplaying.
Where?
Well I would say the correct question should be "How?" I think, because the answer is partly in the design of the new rules. I would assume that every grown up can read a book from the beginning to the end and understand what is written. One of the first things you get told when you are learning a programming language is in order to make a complex problem easier you split it up into smaller parts you can understand and then simply put these smaller parts together in the right way and you get something really complex which you dont need to fully understand. With 4th edition its kinda the same. You get tons of tiny little boxes for powers and they are nice and colorful and jump into your eyes. The encounters are handled the same because they are on a different page and you have a detailed map with the positions of the NPCs marked (which isnt a good idea if your players tend to check out the modules too and you dont adjust stuff). This is all done to make younger persons able to understand the rules and play the game. Personally I dont think the plastic miniatures are appealing to a lot of grown ups either.
Needless to say that I believe that players should have a certain age and experienced a lot in the "real world" before playing D&D, because they need a certain basic knowledge to be able to be creative.
Example: You could have the greatest library right next door and even know how to Google stuff, but if you didnt know that Lions existed you would never be looking for information on them. The same is true with trying to solve problems in a roleplaying game. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jul 2008 : 23:01:26
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| My point was that it doesn't matter, commercially, what elements in the new rules may appeal to that demographic if they aren't told that the game exists, or if they flinch at the idea of reading multiple rulebooks 300 pages long, however broken up they are. |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2008 : 05:46:34
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I have bought the 4E core books and I'll grab the FR books, but I'm really not sure that when I'll play 4E D&D that I'll go for a FR campaign.
Like I've said too many times, I think 4E is the best designed D&D ever, but it is not my favorite kind of RPG anymore nor well suited for what I expect when playing in FR. |
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Pandora
Learned Scribe
Germany
305 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2008 : 09:50:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
My point was that it doesn't matter, commercially, what elements in the new rules may appeal to that demographic if they aren't told that the game exists, or if they flinch at the idea of reading multiple rulebooks 300 pages long, however broken up they are.
Ahh well I have no idea about advertising campaigns, but then D&D is a niche game here in germany. I am simply referring to the style of the rules and to the plastic toy figures which are more in the direction of kids than adults. |
If you cant say what youre meaning,
you can never mean what youre saying.
- Centauri Minister of Intelligence, Babylon 5 |
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Colman
Acolyte
Ireland
33 Posts |
Posted - 01 Aug 2008 : 10:38:25
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Having skipped those silly 3e, 3.5e rules that ruined the flavour of the game. 2e wasn't so hot either, and had that silly Time of Troubles thing with dead gods and general messing around with the setting.
<sigh>
More seriously, I'm not all that attached to rulesets, I haven't been playing for a decade and I never liked 3e anyway - or all the RSEs - so 4e is fine with me. Streamlined combat rules and reduced rules for everything else means less rules for me to ignore. Add in background skills as a house rule, make the ritual caster feat less available - PCs need a good story to explain where they got it - and suck up all the ritual spells I can from the intertubes and it's all good. Running a campaign 100 years later? I don't care. |
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RRELIN
Acolyte
12 Posts |
Posted - 03 Aug 2008 : 20:47:59
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| No. |
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dwarvenranger
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 05 Aug 2008 : 23:45:09
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| I did buy the PHB, and I'm sorry. The game is crap. We spend most of the session in a single combat, as with all the minions and player options combat has not been streamlined at all, also some character races and classes are way more powerful than others (so much for balance). The rest of the session is us trying to figure out rationale for the crazy things some of the characters do. Also I hate the lore, my character (a dwarven paladin)is actually trying to prove that Moradin did not abandon his people. |
If I waited till I knew what I was doing, I'd never get anything done.
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Tyranthraxus
Senior Scribe
Netherlands
423 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2008 : 15:18:26
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I voted yes.
I am probably going to buy it just out of curiosity. I started playing D&D with the release of 3e (I was familiar with AD&D though I never really played it) and I'm not as experienced as you guys with the Realmslore, so it may be a fresh start for me and my group who are basically Forgotten Realms noobs (most of them don't even own the FRCS).
On the other hand, I really like the Realms with what I know about it so far, as do the players, and I don't know if we really want to switch our high fantasy campaign to a post spellplague fallout campaign. Only time will tell. |
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Shottglazz
Acolyte
Canada
49 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2008 : 15:37:32
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| I voted no. I started with BEM, 1e, 2e, and finally 3.5...it took me til 2007 to switch to 3.5 from 2e, and still not 100% sure it was the best move (except NO 2e players in my neck of the woods)...if everyone around here abandons 3.5 for 4e, I'll just go back to playing Rolemaster 2nd edition or stop fantasy RPG's... |
Shottglazz
"Take my love, Take my land, Take me where I cannot stand;
I don't care, I'm still free. You can't take the sky from me." |
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StarBog
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2008 : 16:00:01
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quote:
Originally posted by dwarvenranger
I did buy the PHB...
Our gaming club bought everyone a copy of the 4e PHB out of subs money (this decision was made before we knew much about 4e). So technically I've not actually "bought" 4e.
Suffice to say, after first reading, the copy of 4e in question hasn't left its position at the bottom of my pile of lavatory books since. |
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TSO
Acolyte
USA
3 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2008 : 07:31:29
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| I voted no. |
The shadows shadow. |
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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2008 : 02:43:32
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I voted no. I just cannot get worked up and happy about the new system (had borrowed a copy from a friend, all three books. Read & disliked a great deal, although there were some really good ideas on how to run things here and there). Seriously, I don't like it one bit (and this is coming from someone who really likes LOTS of systems). On the other hand, I really am enthused that it has brought some players back and new players in. Good for them, and I guess it's bad for me 
/d |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2008 : 04:09:03
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I actually already purchased it. There was a great deal on Amazon where I got the gift set for $50. I bought it because I own every edition and I wanted to see first hand all the changes and updates.
After reading through everything carefully, I am now purchasing Paizo's Pathfinder whenever possible. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 10:24:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
The 4th Ed. Core books will be realesed this very month. The upcoming new setting has been debated hotly on these very boards. Out of curiosity I would like to know:
Will you buy the 4th Ed.?
No, is my answer.
What I've seen doesn't particularly excite me. I get the impression that things have been dumbed down and that doesn't appeal. I also felt very ripped off when Wizards of the Cost pulled off the the V3.5 stunt and that has soured me to buying $E.
That said, there are some things I like, such as the approach that Hit Points are more like stamina and I like the idea of rituals. However, I don't like them enough to justify shelling out about 30 Euros. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 13:40:50
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I actually enjoy 4d very much
*ducks for cover* |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 14:26:16
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There's no reason to duck for cover!
Jeez, the way I see it, if you like 4E, it's the same as saying "I like Vampire:TM" or "I like Rolemaster" or even "I like Toon". It's a ruleset, nothing more, nothing less. The only gripe I see most people having is that it's branded D&D and they don't think it feels like the D&D game they know. But if you look at all the changes over the years, none of the successors felt like their predecessor either. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36798 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 18:48:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
There's no reason to duck for cover!
Jeez, the way I see it, if you like 4E, it's the same as saying "I like Vampire:TM" or "I like Rolemaster" or even "I like Toon". It's a ruleset, nothing more, nothing less. The only gripe I see most people having is that it's branded D&D and they don't think it feels like the D&D game they know. But if you look at all the changes over the years, none of the successors felt like their predecessor either.
I'll disagree with that last statement. I'm familiar with 1E, 2E, and 3.x. 1E and 2E are pretty much identical -- 2E is more of a 1.5E than a true edition until itself. And 3.x just codified more, simplified things, and gave us more choices. The rules may have been changed, but it still felt pretty much the same. |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3243 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 18:51:57
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Sorry, I may generalized a bit. 1st through 3.x definitely felt like D&D, but 2nd didn't feel like 1st and 3rd didn't feel like either of the others. 4th feels different from all three, and feels different from the D&D Brand as a whole.
So much, that I'm sure there's a group of kids trapped in an alternate dimension somewhere with their pet unicorn beating up a DM until he opens the portal to get 'home'. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
Ashe's Character Sheet
Alphabetized Index of Realms NPCs |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2008 : 19:14:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
So much, that I'm sure there's a group of kids trapped in an alternate dimension somewhere with their pet unicorn beating up a DM until he opens the portal to get 'home'.
Thanks for that memory. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 03:14:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
It's a ruleset, nothing more, nothing less.
Yeah, that's how I see it. It shouldn't be this major point of contention. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 03:31:36
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I've played 2nd on up to 4th. I intend to play 1st as well if for nothing else than to gain perspective (heck, it's not that different).
Anyways, I enjoy the game... |
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Will you buy the 4th Ed.?
