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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5696 Posts |
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ywhtptgtfo
Seeker
89 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Jun 2008 : 05:27:30
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Better than the firs two, but a few things are not addressed properly or make sense:
(1) The pact between Eilistraee and Vhaeraun
(2) Ghaundaur's sudden incentive to enter the game
(3) Eilistraee appearing in avatar form, putting herself in a very bad position, and while the dark elves are "redeemed"
(4) The loss of an avatar = death of a deity
(5) The whole Lady Penitent cult
(6) Corellon not stepping in
(7) The whole redemption concept and distinguish between dark elves and drow
(8) Laeral, a 600 year old wizard needing Cavatina's guidiance on matters demonic. |
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Neriandal Freit
Senior Scribe
USA
396 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2008 : 00:35:01
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quote:
Originally posted by ywhtptgtfo
Better than the firs two, but a few things are not addressed properly or make sense:
(1) The pact between Eilistraee and Vhaeraun
(2) Ghaundaur's sudden incentive to enter the game
(3) Eilistraee appearing in avatar form, putting herself in a very bad position, and while the dark elves are "redeemed"
(4) The loss of an avatar = death of a deity
(5) The whole Lady Penitent cult
(6) Corellon not stepping in
(7) The whole redemption concept and distinguish between dark elves and drow
(8) Laeral, a 600 year old wizard needing Cavatina's guidiance on matters demonic.
I'll actually echo the following. I didn't quite get the point (in order...
1. I don't know what you necessarily mean by 'pact', but it is possible that she (upon consumption of her brothers essence) gained his knowledge?
2. It was only natural. We killed off the others, so the last of the Drow deities had to make an appearance. It would have been better if that section wasn't rushed.
3. I don't think it was avatar form. Cavatina states it was Her her self, not an avatar there of. This was the Moon Lady...
4. True. Greatly weakens, but not destroy (if 3 is true of course)
5. That was very sudden wasn't it??? Didn't make a drop of sense to me either...
6. It made sense. Those who already chose Eli, of a certain blood line or from the said city mention where all redeemed due to those conditions. Unfortunately for the 'canon' effect, Qilue was unsuccessful in drawing everything into her self let alone anything else that was attempted...
7. True...to true. |
"Eating people is wrong...unless it's on the first date." - Ed Greenwood, GenCon Indy 2006 |
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Braveheart
Learned Scribe
Austria
159 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2008 : 13:01:58
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Well, first, I loved this book (as I do every novel concering the schemes of gods). What bothered me a bit was that every few pages there wasn't a dot at the end of a sentence. Gets a bit irritating...
Sadly enough, a lot of background information was left out of the book, probably because of word-count. My guess is, that Eilistraes mission from the beginning of the Descent was to lead the drow back to the light. During this trilogy, she realized that saving all drow wasn't possible, so she concentrated on saving those she could save. After that mission (or actually a main part of her dogma) was completed, there was no need for her anymore (as stated by Corellon) and her followers went back to the Seldarine pantheon.
Would be interesting to read about the struggle between Lolth and the Seldarine, but I fear that'll be sucked up by the 100+ years in the move to 4E.
Well, and Drizzt seems to be far more depressed in 4E then he already was. Eilistraees death is of course a sad event, but I don't understand why Drizzt is going on about that 100 years later. I also wonder why Drizzt wasn't turned in to a dark elf. |
Jarlaxle: "Do keep ever present in your thoughts, my friend, that an illusion can kill you if you believe in it."
Entreri: "And the real thing can kill you whether you believe in it or not." |
Edited by - Braveheart on 25 Jun 2008 13:03:19 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2008 : 14:21:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Braveheart
After that mission (or actually a main part of her dogma) was completed, there was no need for her anymore (as stated by Corellon) and her followers went back to the Seldarine pantheon.
Actually, that wasn't stated by Corellon, but by one of the spirit elves picking up Cavatina (IIRC). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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TobyKikami
Learned Scribe
USA
113 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2008 : 17:16:26
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quote:
but I don't understand why Drizzt is going on about that 100 years later. I also wonder why Drizzt wasn't turned in to a dark elf.
Hmm, I think that might be (part of) your answer right there, since lack of transformation is essentially telling him he's not worthy of "redemption" and will never have another crack at it. Oh the angst. |
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Braveheart
Learned Scribe
Austria
159 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2008 : 18:35:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Braveheart
After that mission (or actually a main part of her dogma) was completed, there was no need for her anymore (as stated by Corellon) and her followers went back to the Seldarine pantheon.
Actually, that wasn't stated by Corellon, but by one of the spirit elves picking up Cavatina (IIRC).
Hm, might be wrong, but the spirit elves knew what was going on too, didn't they? 
Ad Drizzt: Perhaps they/Salvatore left him drow to demonstrate that drow too can be good if they wish. Or he's still connected to Lolth somehow and not claimed by the Seldarine yet. |
Jarlaxle: "Do keep ever present in your thoughts, my friend, that an illusion can kill you if you believe in it."
Entreri: "And the real thing can kill you whether you believe in it or not." |
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Nkoda
Acolyte
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jun 2008 : 23:39:15
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| Maybe Salvatore has enough clout he doesn't have to change his character to fit in with WOTC guidelines, maybe? Still, if a soul like Drizzt ends up condemned... doesn't say much for the new realms does it? |
Welcome to Jamrock |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4692 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2008 : 03:51:09
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Without reading the book yet, not having Eilistraee as patron deity could very well explain why Drizzt was not transformed. He had another patron deity that still might be alive.
As a pratical matter clearly there could have been some consideration for what Salvatore wanted to see happen with his character. Those desires sometimes are a consideration before a final decsion is made. Clearly not always. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2008 : 14:12:28
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| I wouldn't overlook the possibility that authors weren't aware of what the other authors were doing. It's not like it's never happened before. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2008 : 15:16:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Without reading the book yet, not having Eilistraee as patron deity could very well explain why Drizzt was not transformed. He had another patron deity that still might be alive.
As a pratical matter clearly there could have been some consideration for what Salvatore wanted to see happen with his character. Those desires sometimes are a consideration before a final decsion is made. Clearly not always.
Yeah I thought he belonged to Mielikki(sp?) |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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dirtywick
Seeker
69 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2008 : 15:54:58
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His patron deity doesn't have anything to do with is bloodline.
This is whole thing is pretty inconsistent. If Drizzt remains a regular old drow, then some drow are good but it's rare, which kind of means nothing really changed except they lost basically all of their pantheon. Overlooking Drizzt would also be a pretty bizarre oversight; and now they'll have to figure out a way to address it, so this whole situation is going to get dumb pretty quickly. |
Subtlety of Thay Ch 1 and Ch 2 NWN2 Module |
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Nkoda
Acolyte
USA
40 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2008 : 23:24:35
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| RETCONS! lol. |
Welcome to Jamrock |
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Marilith
Acolyte
1 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2008 : 20:39:36
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I second what others in this thread said. Some of the plotlines just didn´t make any sense to me, no matter how hard I tried.
I assume the author was given instructions by wotc as to how this trilogy is supposed to end and they must have looked something like this: kill off drow pantheon except for Lolth, find reason why all remaining drow are really and unredeemably evil.
I´m not averse to change per se, if the new setting is more, or at least as interesting as the old one, but unfortunately this isn´t the case here. Formerly the drow setting had some variety, I guess that was one of the reasons why it was quite popular, now it´s rather bleak and one-dimensional.
Now we have a race of intelligent and sentient beings who are irredeemably evil because in their veins flows the blood of Wendonai and they weren´t ready for redemption (which would have cleansed their blood) when Eilistraee died and killed off some of Wendonais essence in the process. And what about their children? They are all inherently evil now (and therefore have no need of a deity like Eilistraee) because...well what?
And the ritual Q´arlynd performs meanwhile transforms all drow of Myeritari (sp?) descent into dark elves with brown skin. The mess in the underdark must have been major and I imagine many newly brown-skinned elves were simply murdered. Plus not all of them had "good hearts"; definately not Q´arlynds mother....so the mess goes on, but it´s not a good mess, one of which great role-playing adventures may be born.
Now all drow are irredeemably chaotic evil (as if they were demons themselves)and that takes away so much of the value they had for roleplaying and makes them quite unbelievable.
Why wotc would turn the formerly interesting and popular drow setting into something ultimately lame and one-dimensional is beyond me.
But maybe I´m seeing this all too negative. I´d like to hear other, more positive views though I fear this thread is quite dead by now.
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gomez
Learned Scribe
Netherlands
254 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2009 : 20:45:22
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Finally got to read this, and while I understand a lot better now what happened, there are various elements that chife. For one, I am unsure how likely it is that all participants in the ritual where fullblooded Miyeritari. Unless the families work to remain 'pure' in their bloodlines, it is far more likely that some Ilythirri blood gets mixed in. But it may be that the ritual was not so precise and drow would qualify if they were 'mostly' Miyeritari.
What bothered me more was that Cavatina made it to the Fugue Plane. How can that happen, if she was killed by the Crescent Blade, which (supposedly) destroys your soul? The only answer seems to be that the blade *doesn't* destroy the soul. The statement about it doing so must be false. Not so strange, really: a weapon that does that does not sound as something Eilistraee would create (it sounds too evil).
It does leave room for further development though: if it does not destroy the soul, then those of Qilue, and Eilistraee and Servetarm as well, need still exist (doesn't make them less dead of course). Where the souls are is a different thing. My theory is that the blade 'holds' the soul, capturing it. That could make sense: if it kills Lolth, it would hold her soul (at least until someone else is killed by it), and then Eilistraee may use it, perhaps to bring her mother into redemption?
It would explain that Cavatina goes to the Fugue Plane. It also means that the blade (now broken) would hold Qilue's soul (and maybe Eilistraee's as well, but she might actually have passed on to Arvandor).
Speculation, of course. But if anyone has a better theory on why Cavatina's soul was not destroyed, but Qilue's (supposedly) was, let hear!
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Edited by - gomez on 21 Aug 2009 20:48:21 |
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coach
Senior Scribe
USA
479 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2010 : 13:16:21
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I loved Smedman's work
one thing we have to be careful of is to not punish the author's writing because WotC forced a plot on them that doesn't jee-haw with your thoughts
criticize WotC not the author (not saying anyone is here, but i have seen it on other boards with this trilogy)
if you criticize the author it needs to be because of lack of FR research, inconsistencies, etc
now saying that, i kinda like the redeemed and non-redeemed aspect as in my games now i don't have to bar drizzt clones and on online RPG games such as NWN/NWN2 we don't have to see LG/NG/CG drow running around everywhere |
Bloodstone Lands Sage |
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skychrome
Senior Scribe
713 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jun 2010 : 21:29:17
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I agree with you coach. In my opinion Smedman did a terrific job with that trilogy. I was and still am bothered with what happened especially in book 3, but I am aware of the fact that this was corporate decision, not the author's.
Apart from that mess, the read itself was great. |
"You make an intriguing offer, one that is very tempting. It would seem that I have little alternative than to answer thusly: DISINTEGRATE!" Vaarsuvius, Order of the Stick 625 |
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Archmagexin
Acolyte
3 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2010 : 05:48:49
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I just got here after googling about the book, since I felt a bit unease about the whole story. It is good to see a book club on this! Thought I was the last realm fan on earth.
1) Cavatina-One argument is that she was "Sacrificed" at the game table rather than killed by the blade, then arguably Selvtam should had lived too.
2) It seem the big contradiction with Drizzit is one situation where the author/WOTC etc seem to forget the realm is a polytheistic world, not a mono-one like earth. The whole thing struck me a bit like Christ-the-savior type of situation...not exactly workable when there are dozens of deities with their own heavens.
3) Always kinda curious why Drizzit never met a follower of the dancing maiden...I mean really, he is a famous hero throughout the north, Qilue and group should had sent missionaries to meet him...he could practically be a recruiting poster for the faith.
4) Some of the new "Cleansed" Drows....you know, I wonder what Qilue's plan was...since a large number of these drows are still in Underdark, when they suddenly convert to be Dark Elves (especially many of the missionaries that are still down there) Are they suddenly struck blind? Or worse, in cities that are Lolthian strongholds...instantly subject to unimaginable pain. I hope Qilue included a Mass-Teleport scroll for each follower or they will all be visiting the Seradine in a neo-second. (Of course, that could explain the HUGE line of souls next to Cal)
5) I really felt sad the Drows moved out of Ssmath..it was my favorite city in all of Underdrark. |
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speed9744
Acolyte
USA
1 Posts |
Posted - 07 Sep 2010 : 01:24:52
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| Is their going to be a follow up book to explain what happens after this trilogy? |
speed9744 |
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Ascendancy of the Last : Chapters 10 - 13 & Coda
