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Originally posted by Bakra

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Originally posted by Hoondatha

Conversely, why wouldn't they? Not to us, to George when he asked. At the very least it shows a lack of interest/bordering disrespect, since one sentence isn't exactly hard to write. Something as simple as, "We wanted to shake up that area's status quo," or "I could never pronounce the name of the city, so it had to go," or "We wanted some deep gnomes near the surface so they could be PC's," or even, "That's NDA at the moment," would all have been explanations that would take seconds to write.

That they said nothing at all, taken in isolation, means little. Taken with all the other travesties that have been perpetrated upon the Realms since the 3e switch-over, it shows the emergence earlier than I had realized of the "[lack of] 3e design mentality."

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First as George noted above, he is a freelancer. They don’t have to respond to him unless it is about something he has been contracted to do for them. I’m more inclined to believe the WotC employees respect their freelancers and customers.

Second, I know this annoys most people but sometimes the only answer companies can give is *dramatic pause* silence. There is no such thing as a simple sentence response. A “NDA at the moment” could speaks volumes for most people who post here or people who like to take the response and go in the wrong direction with it. Case in point with the last part of my sentence,” We wanted to shake things up.” This simple sentence could blow up and can be used against them in all sorts of negative ways.

Third, they can’t give an answer in any form or fashion at all. This has nothing to do with lack of interest or being boarder line disrespectful. This is about job security.


Everyone needs to be reminded asking questions is a privilege. Getting answers isn’t.

Fourth they don’t want to answer, to go through all of the red tape (lawyers, chain of command) because they have done it before and got burned for it or one of their fellow employees has gotten burned at the stake. Public ridicule stinks; especially when the person has taken time out to answer the question. “Designer So-So must be stopped.” is a good example of public ridicule for answering questions.

Any freelancer or game writer reading this and wants to correct me about those four things; please do so. You are not going to hurt my feelings.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Bakra

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Originally posted by Hoondatha

Conversely, why wouldn't they? Not to us, to George when he asked. At the very least it shows a lack of interest/bordering disrespect, since one sentence isn't exactly hard to write. Something as simple as, "We wanted to shake up that area's status quo," or "I could never pronounce the name of the city, so it had to go," or "We wanted some deep gnomes near the surface so they could be PC's," or even, "That's NDA at the moment," would all have been explanations that would take seconds to write.

That they said nothing at all, taken in isolation, means little. Taken with all the other travesties that have been perpetrated upon the Realms since the 3e switch-over, it shows the emergence earlier than I had realized of the "[lack of] 3e design mentality."

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First as George noted above, he is a freelancer. They don’t have to respond to him unless it is about something he has been contracted to do for them. I’m more inclined to believe the WotC employees respect their freelancers and customers.

Second, I know this annoys most people but sometimes the only answer companies can give is *dramatic pause* silence. There is no such thing as a simple sentence response. A “NDA at the moment” could speaks volumes for most people who post here or people who like to take the response and go in the wrong direction with it. Case in point with the last part of my sentence,” We wanted to shake things up.” This simple sentence could blow up and can be used against them in all sorts of negative ways.

Third, they can’t give an answer in any form or fashion at all. This has nothing to do with lack of interest or being boarder line disrespectful. This is about job security.


Everyone needs to be reminded asking questions is a privilege. Getting answers isn’t.

Fourth they don’t want to answer, to go through all of the red tape (lawyers, chain of command) because they have done it before and got burned for it or one of their fellow employees has gotten burned at the stake. Public ridicule stinks; especially when the person has taken time out to answer the question. “Designer So-So must be stopped.” is a good example of public ridicule for answering questions.

Any freelancer or game writer reading this and wants to correct me about those four things; please do so. You are not going to hurt my feelings.

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They should respond to freelancers, though, so that the person is in the know in case of future development. And we do have designers -- on record -- making statements like "Oh, I thought this should be different, so I changed it." It happened when 3E was inflicted on us.

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Originally posted by The Sage

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Originally posted by Hoondatha

Ah, no wonder I missed it. I've heard it mentioned in passing, but I don't think I've ever read anything on it (or if I did, it completely failed to stick with me). Where should I look to learn more?

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The Hidden Kingdom of Songfarla is mentioned in "Garl Glittergold's" entry in Demihuman Deities. Also check out DRAGON #349's 'Hordelands' article for more info. And the PDF web enhancement for the article:- http://paizo.com/dragonissues/349/DR349_Supplement.pdf

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In mid-1372 DR (FRCS 3.5E, 2001, p4: [Introduction] & C6: p271), we're told that "two years ago" [i.e., in 1370 DR] the svirfnebli were driven out of the town of Blingdenstone when overrun by drow-summoned demons (FRCS 3.5E, C1: p15: "Deep Gnomes": "Regions"). Again, in either late 1372 or early 1373 DR, we're told that Bling was destroyed "two years ago" [i.e., around late 1370 or early 1371 DR], and supposedly since then the ruins have become occupied by gnomish wererats, an evil magic cloud, and drow gem prospectors (Underdark, 3.5 E, 2003, C8: p129-130: "Blingdenstone").

Nevertheless, we're told that it was in 1371 DR that six Menzoberranyr great houses conspired to attack Blingdenstone with bebelith demons and drow troops, with the city allegedly suffering "destruction" and the population being "virtually eradicated" (Silver Marches, 3.5E, 2002, C1: p35: "The Underdark": "Blingdenstone"). It is reiterated that "the sack of Blingdenstone" took place "[l]ast year" [i.e., the year before mid-1372, or 1371 DR] (SM, C1: "Menzoberranzan": p37). It is said that the strike against Bling was inspired by then-relatively new First Matron Mother Triel Baenre's desire to secure her position amongst the other matron mothers (p37). And then here is a confirmation of the 1371 DR date and Triel Baenre connection (Grand History of the Realms, p151).

Oddly enough, an earlier source seems to contradict itself by confirming this later date of 1371 DR; it is also confirmed that Triel's insecurity as First Matron Mother was the rationale for the attack (Underdark, C8: p162: "Menzoberranzan": "Brief History"). Perhaps a solution to this conundrum may be found in the fact that the sourcebook does not have a clearly stated current date: as I said above, it could be either late 1372 or early 1373 DR. We're told that Kaanyr Vhok's Scoured Legions hold Menzo under seige (p163), and that Gromph Baenre is still missing from Menzo (p161). Gromph reappeared publicly in Menzo in the novel Extinction (C18). The precise dates for the events in the latter half of the series "War of the Spider Queen" are vague (either occurring in late 1372 or early 1373 DR), so it is possible that Gromph's absence and return might have occurred in early 1373 DR. This would allow for Blingdenstone's destruction to have indeed taken place early in the year 1371 DR.

All in all, my best guess is that Blingdenstone was truly destroyed in early 1371 DR.

We're told vaguely that the drow got their revenge "several years later" after the deep gnomes had helped Mithral Hall (1358 DR), and it is confirmed that the drow summoned bebilith demons into the svirf city (FRCS 3.5E, C4: p211: "Important Sites": "Blingdenstone (currently abandoned)").

Lastly, we're also told that the Vhaeraunian drow House Jaerle used remaining portals within the ruined city of Blingdenstone to enter into the tunnels below the largely-abandoned elven forest of Cormanthor. Apparently, lots of drow warlords use Blingdenstone's portals as a staging ground for attacks throughout the Realms (FRCS 3.5E, C4: p125: "The Cormanthor Drow": "House Jaerle").

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Another interesting question is where was Belwar Dissengulp during all of this?

In Siege of Darkness, Belwar convinces his fellow svirfnebli to abandon Blingdenstone in order to aid Mithral Hall (P4:C17). The gnomes had left an earth elemental to watch over the city, in case the drow did attack (SOD, P4:C17). Why? Did the gnomes plan to return? Belwar and Firble scoff at the idea of abandoning the city permanently (SOD, P4:C18). Councilor Firble and King Schnicktick announce that the gnomes will send 300 gnome fighters to the Hall instead of finding a new city, and Belwar thinks to himself that he will fight at Mithral Hall in defense of his homeland (SOD, P4:C21). (The FRCS 3E says that all 12,000 gnomes helped the dwarves {FRCS 3.5E, C4: p211: "Important Sites": "Blingdenstone (currently abandoned)"}!)

We are not told where King Schnicktick waited the battle out. At any rate, we never hear of him again in the novels.

In the end, after the victory at the Battle of Keeper's Dale, with the ranks of his gnomes depleted (SOD, P5:C29), Belwar forges an alliance between Blingdenstone and Mithral Hall, and we're told that the gnomes are in no hurry to leave the Hall (SOD, Epi.). It is unclear in the novels whether Belwar's gnome detachment ever did indeed leave the Hall to return for Bling at all. However, the notion of Belwar moving back to Bling soon after the close of SOD would explain why we never hear about him in any of the novels thereafter.

For that needed clarity, a sourcebook has to be consulted instead of the novels. We are told that the svirfs only spent "a few weeks" out of Bling during their campaign to Mithral Hall (Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark, p34: "Northern Cities": "Blingdenstone"), and that they remained with the dwarves "for weeks" after the Battle of Keeper's Dale (DDUGTTU, p35: "Northern Cities": "Blingdenstone"). It is clearly stated that the gnomes eventually did indeed return home to Bling (DDUGTTU, p35: "Northern Cities": "Blingdenstone").

In a sourcebook, King Schnicktick is said to have continued to rule the restored city of Blingdenstone, along with an entire royal family (DDUGTTU, p36: "Northern Cities": "Blingdenstone"). But because we never hear of them again, my guess is that King Schnicktick and the royal family must've died in the 1371 DR drow siege of Blingdenstone.

It would appear that almost all of the svirnebli returned to Blingdenstone along with King Schnicktick, because so many of them were decimated when the drow later attacked. We're told that 12,000 svirfs were living in Bling, and of those, less than 3,000 survived (SM, C1: p35: "The Underdark": "Blingdenstone"). It is said that the group fleeing to Silverymoon was "the largest group" of survivors (Underdark, C8: p129: "Blingdenstone"), numbering "[s]everal hundred" (FRCS 3.5E, C1: p15: "Deep Gnomes": "Regions"), "five hundred or so" (FRCS 3.5E, C4: p211: "Important Sites": "Blingdenstone (currently abandoned)"), and "almost five hundred refugees" (Underdark, C8: p129: "Blingdenstone"). With the Silverymoon contingent only numbering about 500 out of the 3,000 total survivors, this would suggest that there were other groups that went elsewhere. Belwar probably led one such fleeing group of his own from Bling when the drow sacked the gnome city.

The problem with this, though, is that we are told that Burrow Warden Krieger, who led the contingent of refugees bound for Silverymoon, was the highest-ranking svirf known to have escaped Bling (SM, C1: p35: "The Underdark": "Blingdenstone"). (Elsewhere we are told that he had actually attained the title of "Councilor", due to Firble's death in SOD {DDUGTTU, p36: "Northern Cities": "Blingdenstone"}.) If this "highest-ranking" claim is true, then the Most-Honored Burrow Warden Belwar, being even higher-ranking than Krieger, could not have successfully fled the city. And yet, we are told that Belwar was chief among King Schnicktick's councilors (DDUGTTU, p36: "Northern Cities": "Blingdenstone") and is the leader of the svirf now living in Mithral Hall in mid-1372 (SM, C3: "Mithral Hall": p78). This means that he must have gotten from Bling back to the Hall, somehow, and at some time. Therefore, it is probably not true that Krieger was the highest-ranking svirf known to have escaped Bling, but rather, that Belwar was.

I really think this is true because we are told that as a matter of "[t]he recent history of Mithral Hall" and "[ w]ith the fall of Blingdenstone to Menzoberranzan", a group of gnomes under Belwar's leadership have "taken up residence" in the Hall (SM, C3: "Mithral Hall": p79). This makes it sound as though Belwar had indeed moved back to Bling shortly after 1358 DR and was living in Bling when the drow attacked the city in 1371 DR, as it confirms that he and a contingent of svirf moved back to Mithral Hall in the 1371-1372 DR time period. The population of the Hall is listed as about 5,000, with the svirfs counting as roughly 7% of the total [or 350 souls] (SM, C3: "Mithral Hall": p78), which is larger than the 300-gnome force that King Schnicktick had dispatched to the Hall in SOD and whose numbers had been depleted; therefore, this is clearly a different group of gnomes than the one mentioned in SOD.

But it's anybody's guess why we haven't read about the svirfneblin contingent of Mithral Hall in any of the recent novels, yet . . .

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Another interesting bit of trivia about Blingdenstone is that in the 2nd Edition of the Forgotten Realms, it was planned that Bling would be joining in a permanent alliance with the other goodly forces of the North, known as "the Alliance of Silverymoon" and possibly as the nation of "Luruar", in the year 1370 DR (see DDUGTTU).

However, with the advent of the 3E FRCS, it was determined that Bling would be destroyed around 1370 DR, and that the international league of Luruar never existed. Rather, the League of the Silver Marches would be formed later in 1371 DR, after Bling had already been sacked, and this would effectively prevent any consideration of the former-gnome city for inclusion within the League. (R.A. Salvatore Forums, thread entitled <"When was Blingdenstone destroyed?">)

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Originally posted by Hoondatha

Not to mention they would have done the sneaky gnomish trick of having all their defensive passages gnome height. Nothing like making your enemies fight on their knees...

I'm not sure about your idea about the rational behind it, though. Had there been anything published on svirfneblin PC's? That happened long enough ago that I'm a little hazy on the timeline.

Personally, I think it's just an early example of 3e and 4e smashing things because they felt like it.

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Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart

I just like how you pronounce Svirfneblin. If you say it just right, it sounds like someone's playing a tape recorder in reverse.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart

I just like how you pronounce Svirfneblin. If you say it just right, it sounds like someone's playing a tape recorder in reverse.

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Nilbenfrivs?

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Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart

I just like how you pronounce Svirfneblin. If you say it just right, it sounds like someone's playing a tape recorder in reverse.

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Nilbenfrivs?

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Which is elvish for "Paul is Dead".

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I agree on gnomes. That's one race I have never had any interest at all in -- they're just kinda there.

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Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart

I just like how you pronounce Svirfneblin. If you say it just right, it sounds like someone's playing a tape recorder in reverse.

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Originally posted by Markustay

<chop>Anyhow, to get this a little-bit more on-topic - I never liked Gnomes. The best representation I have ever seen of them (and the one I use now) is the one in the game Arcanum. They are money-grubbing little schemers who don't care who they hurt if there is a profit to be made, or some other goal to be achieved that is beneficial to them.

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Originally posted by Markustay

I never liked them as 'little people' - especially of the forests. As for the regular ones - that niche is filled by the Halflings; as for the 'Forest Gnomes', that niche was filled by Fey, like Brownies and what-not.

I did like Blingdenstone, because the Deep Gnomes are the closest to how I perceive all Gnomes to be - much more neutral in outlook, and they keep to themselves. That is just my take, though.

I was slightly upset when Blindenstone fell, but I felt it was way too close to both the Duergar and the Drow, and it was bound to happen (and should have sooner - I have to assume there was something the Gnomes were able to provide to the Underdark community that others could not, hence making the valuable, even if they were undesirable).

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Originally posted by Jakk

Are you saying that Gnomes are the Ferengi of D&D?

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Originally posted by The Sage

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I agree on gnomes. That's one race I have never had any interest at all in -- they're just kinda there.

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Bah! Gnomes are the secret masters of the world.

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