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Sailusj
Acolyte
USA
19 Posts |
 Posted - 18 Jun 2008 : 22:45:35
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| What kind of dealings exactly would Larloch have had with the Fiends of the Outerplans? The Fiends are known for their double dealing and double crossing ways, so how would they know that Larloch is not one to be treated in such a manner? He isnt a demigod, after all. And if a Demon Lord would dare capture a Goddess (Waukeen) why not a powerful lich? |
"Oh dear God...What is that smell?!" |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2008 : 03:07:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Sailusj
What kind of dealings exactly would Larloch have had with the Fiends of the Outerplans? The Fiends are known for their double dealing and double crossing ways, so how would they know that Larloch is not one to be treated in such a manner? He isnt a demigod, after all. And if a Demon Lord would dare capture a Goddess (Waukeen) why not a powerful lich?
Well, Waukeen wasn't a goddess when she was captured... She wasn't even as powerful as the other avatars, since she had to shed some of it to get out of the Realms. |
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Sailusj
Acolyte
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2008 : 03:46:03
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| Did she? I read the Duty & Deities but i dont seem to remember that...I guess that would explain that tad bit. Thank you |
"Oh dear God...What is that smell?!" |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2008 : 13:42:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Sailusj
What kind of dealings exactly would Larloch have had with the Fiends of the Outerplans? The Fiends are known for their double dealing and double crossing ways, so how would they know that Larloch is not one to be treated in such a manner? He isnt a demigod, after all. And if a Demon Lord would dare capture a Goddess (Waukeen) why not a powerful lich?
Well, there is absolutely no one better at getting the Tears of a Broken Solar than the Lords of the Nine and those are essential, as you need to rehydrate the Eyes of a Generous Yugoloth with the Tears (you dried those in the smoke of a New Born Efreeti remember) and the rehydrated Eyes are used in the enchantment that will rip all knowledge from the mind of a being.
You deal with Fiends because the kind of enchantments Larloch is creating require things that aren't found on the material plane.
Waukeen was a special case. Part of the reason she was captured was that she went alone or with minimal back up and that she went to Grazzt's domain itself, where he has, literally, countless Demons who wouldn't be apposed to taking a bite out of a weakened Goddess/Avatar. Which is one part I'm not sure about, if this happened when the Gods were cast down or if it happened before they were cast down. My assumption is that it happened almost immediately after, before the Gods even made it out of their homes. Which would have made Waukeen a weakened Avatar in the heart of Grazzt's power. That would go a long way towards explaining just exactly why Waukeen was able to be captured by Grazzt, her contigency plan may have worked if she had retained her true divinity.
Anyhow, Larloch wouldn't do that. He'd send one of his lichs, maybe even 3 or 4. And he may "ride" them by giving them items of power that he can "look through". And he'd probably contact the Lower Planar folks through proxies. And he'd probably arrange a meeting in a more neutral location. And he'd probably do about 10,000 other clever things before the meeting to ensure he got his Tears of a Broken Solar.
Waukeen didn't have that luxury. Rest assured though, she wouldn't be caught like that again.
Either way, |
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Sailusj
Acolyte
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2008 : 16:43:32
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
quote:
Originally posted by Sailusj
What kind of dealings exactly would Larloch have had with the Fiends of the Outerplans? The Fiends are known for their double dealing and double crossing ways, so how would they know that Larloch is not one to be treated in such a manner? He isnt a demigod, after all. And if a Demon Lord would dare capture a Goddess (Waukeen) why not a powerful lich?
Well, there is absolutely no one better at getting the Tears of a Broken Solar than the Lords of the Nine and those are essential, as you need to rehydrate the Eyes of a Generous Yugoloth with the Tears (you dried those in the smoke of a New Born Efreeti remember) and the rehydrated Eyes are used in the enchantment that will rip all knowledge from the mind of a being.
You deal with Fiends because the kind of enchantments Larloch is creating require things that aren't found on the material plane.
Waukeen was a special case. Part of the reason she was captured was that she went alone or with minimal back up and that she went to Grazzt's domain itself, where he has, literally, countless Demons who wouldn't be apposed to taking a bite out of a weakened Goddess/Avatar. Which is one part I'm not sure about, if this happened when the Gods were cast down or if it happened before they were cast down. My assumption is that it happened almost immediately after, before the Gods even made it out of their homes. Which would have made Waukeen a weakened Avatar in the heart of Grazzt's power. That would go a long way towards explaining just exactly why Waukeen was able to be captured by Grazzt, her contigency plan may have worked if she had retained her true divinity.
Anyhow, Larloch wouldn't do that. He'd send one of his lichs, maybe even 3 or 4. And he may "ride" them by giving them items of power that he can "look through". And he'd probably contact the Lower Planar folks through proxies. And he'd probably arrange a meeting in a more neutral location. And he'd probably do about 10,000 other clever things before the meeting to ensure he got his Tears of a Broken Solar.
Waukeen didn't have that luxury. Rest assured though, she wouldn't be caught like that again.
Either way,
Well that makes alot more sense when you put it that way. Losing her true divinity may have disrupted her contingency plans and being in a Demon Lords Realm would certainly make matters worse. But I was Sure Gods and Goddess's were smarter than that lol.
Also that seem's in concert with Larlochs habits as far as not leaving his Crypt, and he must have those liches for other reasons than body guards. but if they are completely under his will, wouldn't that negate their own and make for poor negotiators especially for dealing with Fiends? |
"Oh dear God...What is that smell?!" |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2008 : 17:01:28
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| Someone here tell me, in terms of overall power, what separates Larlcoch from the run of the mill demigod? Also would Vecna clean his clock? |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2008 : 17:29:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Sailusj
Well that makes alot more sense when you put it that way. Losing her true divinity may have disrupted her contingency plans and being in a Demon Lords Realm would certainly make matters worse. But I was Sure Gods and Goddess's were smarter than that lol.
Also that seem's in concert with Larlochs habits as far as not leaving his Crypt, and he must have those liches for other reasons than body guards. but if they are completely under his will, wouldn't that negate their own and make for poor negotiators especially for dealing with Fiends?
Well, I think her contingency plans never included being striped of her divinity, the ToT happened so unexpectedly and so fast that there wasn't time to consider what was happening and she might have figured she could bluff her way past Grazzt. That's my best guess anyhow, I find the plot a little weak and need to think long and hard about how it could happen (Wouldn't Waukeen have allies, her divine court for example, and why wouldn't she have included some of them in her escape. How did Grazzt figure out her lessened powers (could be that Waukeen underestimated his perception)? Things of that nature).
As for Larloch and his lichs, I highly doubt that he's removed their individuality. They're probably even free to do all sorts of research independently (within reason) and have their own experiments and intrigues going on, they just need to clear things with Larloch (which probably isn't needed very often) and then follow his dictates (don't attract attention, don't try to mess with any of Larloch's projects, be ready, at any point, to halt your actions in order to follow Larloch's orders, etc). They're probably excellent negotiators, excellent spell casters, highly knowledgeable sages of planes lore, arcane lore, etc. And I'd further assume that Larloch can "ride" any of his lichs and cast through them (in addition to them casting as well), he can probably even "ride" them into different planes, though I'd expect that some beings could detect Larloch in his lich and do something about it.
Basically, Larloch is a major power and has the ability to change the face of Toril if he so chooses (with Mystra's permission, since she can still deny beings the ability to use the weave and we have no idea if Larloch has figured out a way to cast without using the weave) but he's not interested in doing that in the least. His interests lie in becoming a more powerful spell caster, mostly just because he desires to heighten his magic. It's pretty much all he cares about, as far as I see things. |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2008 : 17:42:11
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
Someone here tell me, in terms of overall power, what separates Larlcoch from the run of the mill demigod? Also would Vecna clean his clock?
Larloch doesn't want to be a demigod. I'm pretty sure that, if push came to shove, he could take out a demigod. It would not be a knock down, drag out fight though, it'd be a century to millennium long struggle and there is no real way to tell what would happen. It's really a designer (or DM, if talking about a specific campaign) call based on how they want the world to work.
As for Vecna, I have no clue, don't really know jack about him, other than he's the "big, bad, evil magic diety" of core. |
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Sailusj
Acolyte
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2008 : 17:55:44
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
quote:
Originally posted by Sailusj
Well that makes alot more sense when you put it that way. Losing her true divinity may have disrupted her contingency plans and being in a Demon Lords Realm would certainly make matters worse. But I was Sure Gods and Goddess's were smarter than that lol.
Also that seem's in concert with Larlochs habits as far as not leaving his Crypt, and he must have those liches for other reasons than body guards. but if they are completely under his will, wouldn't that negate their own and make for poor negotiators especially for dealing with Fiends?
Well, I think her contingency plans never included being striped of her divinity, the ToT happened so unexpectedly and so fast that there wasn't time to consider what was happening and she might have figured she could bluff her way past Grazzt. That's my best guess anyhow, I find the plot a little weak and need to think long and hard about how it could happen (Wouldn't Waukeen have allies, her divine court for example, and why wouldn't she have included some of them in her escape. How did Grazzt figure out her lessened powers (could be that Waukeen underestimated his perception)? Things of that nature).
As for Larloch and his lichs, I highly doubt that he's removed their individuality. They're probably even free to do all sorts of research independently (within reason) and have their own experiments and intrigues going on, they just need to clear things with Larloch (which probably isn't needed very often) and then follow his dictates (don't attract attention, don't try to mess with any of Larloch's projects, be ready, at any point, to halt your actions in order to follow Larloch's orders, etc). They're probably excellent negotiators, excellent spell casters, highly knowledgeable sages of planes lore, arcane lore, etc. And I'd further assume that Larloch can "ride" any of his lichs and cast through them (in addition to them casting as well), he can probably even "ride" them into different planes, though I'd expect that some beings could detect Larloch in his lich and do something about it.
Basically, Larloch is a major power and has the ability to change the face of Toril if he so chooses (with Mystra's permission, since she can still deny beings the ability to use the weave and we have no idea if Larloch has figured out a way to cast without using the weave) but he's not interested in doing that in the least. His interests lie in becoming a more powerful spell caster, mostly just because he desires to heighten his magic. It's pretty much all he cares about, as far as I see things.
That was very insightful, why didn't I think he would leave his liches to their own designs also? of course he must still allow them to increase in power and knowledge so as to still be useful and relevant. Being able to "ride" his liches must also be a very useful ability! But how much more powerful does he think he can become? from what I've read in this topic Larloch is pretty much so far up in the hierarchy he may be treading in uncharted place's? And it already seem's he is as powerful as most demigods, so is he trying to "magic" his way up to divinity? but if so its already been concluded thats not what he wants. OR is he preparing for something....a cataclysmic conflict of planar spanning proportions? maybe readying himself and his cabal to be a major force in it? or at least to not be trampled in the coming conflict? |
"Oh dear God...What is that smell?!" |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2008 : 18:07:23
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
quote:
Originally posted by Sailusj
Well that makes alot more sense when you put it that way. Losing her true divinity may have disrupted her contingency plans and being in a Demon Lords Realm would certainly make matters worse. But I was Sure Gods and Goddess's were smarter than that lol.
Also that seem's in concert with Larlochs habits as far as not leaving his Crypt, and he must have those liches for other reasons than body guards. but if they are completely under his will, wouldn't that negate their own and make for poor negotiators especially for dealing with Fiends?
Well, I think her contingency plans never included being striped of her divinity, the ToT happened so unexpectedly and so fast that there wasn't time to consider what was happening and she might have figured she could bluff her way past Grazzt. That's my best guess anyhow, I find the plot a little weak and need to think long and hard about how it could happen (Wouldn't Waukeen have allies, her divine court for example, and why wouldn't she have included some of them in her escape. How did Grazzt figure out her lessened powers (could be that Waukeen underestimated his perception)? Things of that nature).
The avatars were bound to Toril -- the Prime Material Plane -- until the Tablets of Fate were returned. After one failed attempt to get back to the Outer Planes, Waukeen called in a favor with Celestian, a non-Realms deity, to get out of the Realms. At the time, Waukeen was still a proper avatar, like the other deities. But, to get out of the Realms, she had to set aside her divinity. In other words, Waukeen gave up being a goddess to get out of the Realms. She thought she'd sneak back into the heavens, and that from there she'd be able to regain her divinity. Celestian transported her to the Astral Plane, and from there, she was going to be smuggled by Graz'zt's agents back across the planes to her realm. But Graz'zt instead chose to betray her, wanting more money and to pick her brain on wealth.
No one knew where she was, so no one could go after her. And she'd shed her divinity, so she was relatively weak, and not being a deity, she didn't get powered back up when the ToT ended.
It's all in Faiths & Avatars. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2008 : 18:13:26
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Larloch prolly could defeat most avatars in combat, and maybe even a demigod. But, he couldn't kill any of them, since deities can't be killed without divine assistance.
I serious doubt Larloch wants the hassles of being a god. I think he's happy pushing the boundaries of magic and gaining a deeper understanding of the nature of the Weave.
Also, there was a very interesting reply Ed made, in response to a bit of speculation on my part:
quote:
To Wooly Rupert: when you post sentences like this one: And though I can't think of any evidence to support it, it's not impossible that part of what Larloch is doing is containing something... be aware that you are (ahem) VERY perceptive.
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2008 : 18:49:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Larloch prolly could defeat most avatars in combat, and maybe even a demigod. But, he couldn't kill any of them, since deities can't be killed without divine assistance.
Hmmm I guess "divine assistance" could also be interpreted as an artifact/weapon capable of taking out a god? There are more than of few of those lying around. Also aren't some demon Princes Demigod Level? Does it take divine intervention to slay them as well? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jun 2008 : 19:39:42
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Larloch prolly could defeat most avatars in combat, and maybe even a demigod. But, he couldn't kill any of them, since deities can't be killed without divine assistance.
Hmmm I guess "divine assistance" could also be interpreted as an artifact/weapon capable of taking out a god? There are more than of few of those lying around. Also aren't some demon Princes Demigod Level? Does it take divine intervention to slay them as well?
Divine assistance means the help of a deity. Artifacts don't count as deities, nor do demon princes. |
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Sailusj
Acolyte
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 01:07:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Larloch prolly could defeat most avatars in combat, and maybe even a demigod. But, he couldn't kill any of them, since deities can't be killed without divine assistance.
I serious doubt Larloch wants the hassles of being a god. I think he's happy pushing the boundaries of magic and gaining a deeper understanding of the nature of the Weave.
Also, there was a very interesting reply Ed made, in response to a bit of speculation on my part:
quote:
To Wooly Rupert: when you post sentences like this one: And though I can't think of any evidence to support it, it's not impossible that part of what Larloch is doing is containing something... be aware that you are (ahem) VERY perceptive.
So Waukeen was foolish enough to "shed" her divinity just to get out ot the realms and try to get home? didnt she think Ao was powerful and wise enough to expect sumthing of that nature and knew how to prevent it? Or at least she should have known since HE took their power only he could give it back? Sounds kinda fishy to me.
Larloch IS up to something! I couldn't quite come close enough to get somewhere in the ball park of what he was doing, but "containing" something? I wonder if the Containing sumthing is in the form of a Being, or Force or Artifact, maybe a many somethings? Or knowledge of something impending happening...Now there are even more questions than before lol. |
"Oh dear God...What is that smell?!" |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 01:44:03
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Ed's answers imply that Larloch MAY have some plots, but if he does, they're so wide-reaching, complicated, and clandestine that virtually no one in the Realms [including the Chosen] knows what they are.
One of his current 'plots' revolves around controlling portals and portal networks throughout Faerūn. He's looking at controlling the gates indirectly. In the sense that he'll be doing a couple of things:-
1. Monitoring people movement; who goes where and more importantly, why;
2. Putting in place magics to control creatures or people using 'his' portals, or at the very least access their knowledge/memories;
3. Using his knowledge of portals and portal networks to bring groups or individuals into conflict and thereby benefiting from the fallout.
All of this is intended to be done without the hand of Larloch being apparent.
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Sailusj
Acolyte
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 01:57:26
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Ed's answers imply that Larloch MAY have some plots, but if he does, they're so wide-reaching, complicated, and clandestine that virtually no one in the Realms [including the Chosen] knows what they are.
One of his current 'plots' revolves around controlling portals and portal networks throughout Faerūn. He's looking at controlling the gates indirectly. In the sense that he'll be doing a couple of things:-
1. Monitoring people movement; who goes where and more importantly, why;
2. Putting in place magics to control creatures or people using 'his' portals, or at the very least access their knowledge/memories;
3. Using his knowledge of portals and portal networks to bring groups or individuals into conflict and thereby benefiting from the fallout.
All of this is intended to be done without the hand of Larloch being apparent.
My Thanks Lore Master Most High, that sheds even more light on Larloch and his schems, My thanks also Wooly for your insight.
Controlling portals? placing magics on them to control the people that use them? sounds very magically draining for even one such as Him. Perchance one of the Chosen happens to use the portal? Say El, or would El be more likely to realize the peril? Id think so. I must admit it appears to be Genius..If he could manipulate events in such a manner as bringing certain forces into conflict this way, and no trace to himself. And the reward and treasures he could reap. And maybe more importantly the maneuvering of potential foes and strategic elimination.... |
"Oh dear God...What is that smell?!" |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 13:29:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Divine assistance means the help of a deity. Artifacts don't count as deities, nor do demon princes.
If the artifact were invested with some deific power (which I assume some are) then that could certainly fill the requirement for deific aid.
Further, we have no idea what really happens when a deity loses all mortal worshipers.
And, we don't really know that Larloch doesn't have deific aid.
Regarding Larloch's plots, I think that most of them revolve around keeping him occupied. I imagine he's one of the most bored beings on Toril and REALLY, REALLY hates the feeling (Ever been bored of being bored? Not until you've lived for thousands of years you haven't.).
Dang, time to run, I'll come back and edit later. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 15:49:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Sailusj
So Waukeen was foolish enough to "shed" her divinity just to get out ot the realms and try to get home? didnt she think Ao was powerful and wise enough to expect sumthing of that nature and knew how to prevent it? Or at least she should have known since HE took their power only he could give it back? Sounds kinda fishy to me.
Like I said, the deities were desparate and humiliated. It's like taking a favored toy away from a spoiled child: even if the end result will surely be more trouble for the child, they are still going to try to get the toy back. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 15:56:26
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I wouldn't consider divine power in an artifact to be the same thing as deific assistance. If that was all it took, any reasonably powerful cleric would have a fair chance of taking down a minor deity.
We do know what happens when a deity loses all mortal worshippers: they fade away and die.
And you're right, we don't know that Larloch doesn't have divine aid. But, other than some special dispensations from Mystra, there is no evidence he does have divine aid, either. Letting him do his own thing is no where near the same as offering aid against another deity... And quite frankly, I don't see why Larloch would be going up against a deity. Doing something like that offers great potential for advancement, but it also offers great potential for being squashed and eternally tormented by an angry deity. Larloch is already in a great position, and if he wanted to be a deity, he's surely had plenty of opportunities to do it before now. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 20 Jun 2008 15:58:06 |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 16:23:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I wouldn't consider divine power in an artifact to be the same thing as deific assistance. If that was all it took, any reasonably powerful cleric would have a fair chance of taking down a minor deity.
I guess it'd be a case of having to know exactly what "deific assistance" means. If it means having deific power to toss at the targeted god then I'd assume that an artifact imbued with deific power would have a chance to destroy a god (depending on the relative levels of power).
As for a reasonably powerful cleric, well, I'd have to assume that it'd depend on how much the deity "helped". IE. If the cleric were casting then I'd assume the deity "helping" would need to channel more power through the cleric than typical clerical magic contains. How this would actually work I'm not sure, I'd personally rule that it'd tend to "burn out" the cleric in question.
But really, I'd say it's a Designer/DM question. Since it's not spelled out well and I don't really care to see them waste space to spell it out better.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly RupertWe do know what happens when a deity loses all mortal worshippers: they fade away and die.
Yeah, but the process would be pretty damned important. If the god was able to stick around for a few years and still contact the mortal plane then it's likely they could land a worshiper in the time it took them to fade away and die, if they "poof" then they wouldn't.
And, while nigh unto impossible, it wouldn't require deific aid.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly RupertAnd you're right, we don't know that Larloch doesn't have divine aid. But, other than some special dispensations from Mystra, there is no evidence he does have divine aid, either. Letting him do his own thing is no where near the same as offering aid against another deity... And quite frankly, I don't see why Larloch would be going up against a deity. Doing something like that offers great potential for advancement, but it also offers great potential for being squashed and eternally tormented by an angry deity. Larloch is already in a great position, and if he wanted to be a deity, he's surely had plenty of opportunities to do it before now.
Yep, no proof one way or another on Larloch having deific support. And as for Larloch going after a deity, the only way I could see that happening is if Larloch needed a piece of a living deity in order to complete an important enchantment. And even if he did need that I'm sure he'd come up with a better way than going out and having a slug fest. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 17:05:20
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
We do know what happens when a deity loses all mortal worshippers: they fade away and die.
Yeah, but the process would be pretty damned important. If the god was able to stick around for a few years and still contact the mortal plane then it's likely they could land a worshiper in the time it took them to fade away and die, if they "poof" then they wouldn't.
And, while nigh unto impossible, it wouldn't require deific aid.
Yeah, but that's not a mortal killing a deity. To kill a deity, a mortal needs divine aid. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 20 Jun 2008 17:05:48 |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 17:37:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
Yeah, but the process would be pretty damned important. If the god was able to stick around for a few years and still contact the mortal plane then it's likely they could land a worshiper in the time it took them to fade away and die, if they "poof" then they wouldn't.
And, while nigh unto impossible, it wouldn't require deific aid.
Yeah, but that's not a mortal killing a deity. To kill a deity, a mortal needs divine aid.
Well, if a mortal did kill all a particular gods worshipers then the mortal would, in effect, be killing the deity.
I'm not saying it's possible in a practical sense, just that it is a remote possibility. At least in the framework, as I understand it, presented.
But really, it's irrelevant to me because I like my gods to be far from the mortal coil. Direct god action, to me, is a poor plot device and really hasn't been pulled off well by. . . anyone really. I prefer that gods use agents. Heck, I prefer most outsiders, powerful wizards, powerful churches, dragons, etc, to use agents. More intrigue, less bashing. |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 20 Jun 2008 : 23:16:56
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Divine assistance means the help of a deity. Artifacts don't count as deities, nor do demon princes.
If the artifact were invested with some deific power (which I assume some are) then that could certainly fill the requirement for deific aid.
Further, we have no idea what really happens when a deity loses all mortal worshipers.
And, we don't really know that Larloch doesn't have deific aid.
Regarding Larloch's plots, I think that most of them revolve around keeping him occupied. I imagine he's one of the most bored beings on Toril and REALLY, REALLY hates the feeling (Ever been bored of being bored? Not until you've lived for thousands of years you haven't.).
Dang, time to run, I'll come back and edit later.
Yep that was my line of reasoning. I don't know if Forgotton Realms
novels are excepted as canon but the Lady Penintent Series (Warning Spoiler Below)
I believe a certain Darksong Knight was able to slay Lolth's rtighthand man with a God Invested weapon.. the Crescent Blade.
Also didn't the Seven Slay Orcus? I'm not sure if there was direct divine intervention there... |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2008 : 01:37:10
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
Yeah, but the process would be pretty damned important. If the god was able to stick around for a few years and still contact the mortal plane then it's likely they could land a worshiper in the time it took them to fade away and die, if they "poof" then they wouldn't.
And, while nigh unto impossible, it wouldn't require deific aid.
Yeah, but that's not a mortal killing a deity. To kill a deity, a mortal needs divine aid.
Well, if a mortal did kill all a particular gods worshipers then the mortal would, in effect, be killing the deity.
I'm not saying it's possible in a practical sense, just that it is a remote possibility. At least in the framework, as I understand it, presented.
A possibility, yes. The scale and organisation required for one deity's mortal clergy to wipeout another deity's clergy would be considerable -- the decline of worshipers of Auppenser is an effective example. And they'd probably never be absolutely sure that they could "get" every worshipper of the other god. Thus, it's highly unlikely that mortals could effectively and completely "kill" a god in this way. Severely de-power the god on the other hand, yes, most definitely.
Consider also, the also the possibility of a god whose portfolios are important to the Realms, becoming threatened by a severe enough policy of strategic de-powering that would eventually result in his/her dissolution. We can assume that Mystra may be forced to step in and send the god into a long and deep regenerative slumber [again, like Auppenser] instead of losing him/her [and his/her associated portfolios] completely. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 21 Jun 2008 01:38:29 |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3740 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2008 : 02:02:57
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
Yep that was my line of reasoning. I don't know if Forgotton Realms
novels are excepted as canon but the Lady Penintent Series (Warning Spoiler Below)
-Yes, yes they are.
quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
I believe a certain Darksong Knight was able to slay Lolth's rtighthand man with a God Invested weapon.. the Crescent Blade.
-Cavatina, correct. Not that it particularly matters, either, but keep in mind that the entire series was muddled with continuity problems and contradictions to canon. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jun 2008 : 07:04:46
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In my oppinion Larloch is a chosen of mystra.. Furthermore, he could go op against a demi-god or even a greater diety.
If one need a divine help of smiting another diety that wont be hard to find. But "why" he woudt do this is an enigma. He has no reasons for attacing a diety... unless it thretens his own power. Like destroying the weave or mystra. And for that matter he could have a lvl 10 or 11 spell that could do somthing to protect her. Or he might have his own "Avatar" spell. He could have items of such power as to controle a diety...
Thats what is cool about him. A DM can use him in anyway and give him any item og spell or effect. Nothing is too much, when it comes to Larloch. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2008 : 00:05:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Dagnirion
-Cavatina, correct. Not that it particularly matters, either, but keep in mind that the entire series was muddled with continuity problems and contradictions to canon.
Also, it's likely that she was just doing what Lolth wanted her to do (that is, it's possible she had direct divine aid, even if it was unasked for). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2008 : 00:06:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
In my oppinion Larloch is a chosen of mystra.
If he is, it's never been stated in the official sources. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36803 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2008 : 03:23:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
In my oppinion Larloch is a chosen of mystra.
If he is, it's never been stated in the official sources.
Nor implied anywhere, not even by Ed.
Larloch doesn't do the stuff Mystra requires of her Chosen. She just lets him do his own thing a bit more than other mages get to do. I don't see any reason to assume he is a Chosen. |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31772 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2008 : 03:47:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
In my oppinion Larloch is a chosen of mystra.
If he is, it's never been stated in the official sources.
Nor implied anywhere, not even by Ed.
Larloch doesn't do the stuff Mystra requires of her Chosen. She just lets him do his own thing a bit more than other mages get to do. I don't see any reason to assume he is a Chosen.
Some of Ed's replies on the subject would seem to suggest that Larloch is somewhat beyond the powers and perceptions of Mystra's Chosen. Look to the bits from Ed I posted earlier in this scroll. A few of Larloch's plots are "so wide-reaching, complicated, and clandestine that virtually no one in the Realms [including the Chosen] knows what they are." This could imply that Larloch simply occupies a "special position" that is all his own -- and not something that can be easily categorised. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Most powerful forgotten realms wizards...
