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Originally posted by Nightbreeze

So, some time ago IMG the group found a small city at the eastern coast of Maztica. It is not the center of the campaign (they are bothered by other things), but it will become of primary important as there's an outsider (actually a human, but from the outside planes) decided to sponsor their city (not directly them! the money has to go for the city) with a HUGE load of gold (I am thinking about 4 millions gp here. Did I mention they are near epic level? And yes, it is a freaking amount anyway).

I mean to make a fast forward of 4-5 years, but I need to get an idea about the amount of money that a normal city/nation sees as taxes and treates...and for this, I'd like you to quote some huge money transaction in the existing manuals , or something like that. For example, in one of the 3.5 manuals there was a section where they said that a merchant that gave ...1 million? not sure...gp to the city got automatically in the reigning council.

Thanks for you help

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Originally posted by Kentinal

A fleet is something bigger then the other guy, *wink*
There is not set number, what makes a fleet a fleet is that it is well known and often respected. That could mean honest traders/merchants or preditory pirates. A force known is what gives a group of ships a title of fleet. No you can not have a fleet of one ship. *Grin*

Back to topic. The city already exists, it has a tax base already of 5 to 25 percent (peasants likely paying the 25 precent). No ruler is going to arm and equip his troops at retail prices, he will hire smiths, amoorers, leather workers and so on that will produce product at lower costs. To support a 5000 troop number the payroll and material will be more like 100,000 gold as opoposed to 1 million. There of course is the payroll of the troops, but depending on how the city is set up a tax cut and 10 gold a week could fill the ranks.

None of the rules for craft or profession are really good for building an economy, the rules are geared to the PC. However we are told that in 3.X untrained people earn one silver a day, a trained level one will earn about 5 gold per week. This can be a starting base of building your city within the ruleset. The one silver per day can barely buy food so few of them can survive long, they need to learn a trade or join the army.

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Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
second, Ed has posted the estimated personal fortunes of individual "coin mountains," such as Mirt. Check the index to "So Saith Ed" for 2007;

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Originally posted by Kentinal
No ruler is going to arm and equip his troops at retail prices, he will hire smiths, amoorers, leather workers and so on that will produce product at lower costs. To support a 5000 troop number the payroll and material will be more like 100,000 gold as opoposed to 1 million.

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There of course is the payroll of the troops, but depending on how the city is set up a tax cut and 10 gold a week could fill the ranks.

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Originally posted by Icelander

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Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
second, Ed has posted the estimated personal fortunes of individual "coin mountains," such as Mirt. Check the index to "So Saith Ed" for 2007;

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I know this is an old thread, but I was wondering if anyone could give me better directions for what to search for in the index to find this bit of lore. I didn't find the terms 'coin mountains' or 'Mirt' anywhere in 2007.

It's a subject that's relevant to my campaign, since my PCs are budding merchant lords. They still count their wealth in thousands of gold pieces, but the company they own collectively with some NPCs has started to deal in hundreds of thousands.

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Sigh.
The trouble with this question is that some individuals truly don’t know or realize (or care) how wealthy they are, and don’t use their influence. Others, such as Larloch or Manshoon, have great behind-the-scenes influence and have the means to seize property almost at will. Still others have the high public profiles you allude to (Donald Trump isn’t wealthy at all compared to most Saudi oil sheiks, having built his empire largely with other peoples’ money, but he does have a high public profile - - whereas far more wealthy men like J. Paul Getty went to great lengths to avoid publicity when alive), though most REALLY wealthy individuals in the Realms want to keep their wealth and lives, and so keep themselves as hidden and low-profile as possible, sometimes faking their own deaths and adopting several “identities” to “hide in.”
Some rulers claim to own all land and wealth in their country, and so could claim stupendous wealth, even though they can’t really touch most of it. Others (high priests of faiths) could make the same claim, and augment it with wider influence than the rulers, too - - but although they may control the wealth of their churches, it isn’t “theirs,” and attempts to use it in ways their deity, or just other powerful followers of their deity, disagree with, can also lead to their sudden loss of power or life.
And what about dragons and their hoards? Some of them are very rich (though they’ll never willingly spend anything) and VERY powerful, if they choose to wake up and emerge to scourge lands or try to exert influence - - yet they are unknown to most folk in the Realms, and will probably stay that way.
So, you see, this is a nigh-impossible question to meaningfully answer. Almost as fruitless as “name the ten best movies of all time.”
So, of course, I’m going to try. ;}
First: Arivia, exactly how MUCH money would you like to wager? I’m a poor game designer, you know, and a windfall would come in mighty handy about now, what with RRSP deadlines and property taxes and first income tax instalment payments . . . never mind. That should be hint enough at a reply to your speculation.
Vvornth, you wagered rather more wisely, but see my comments above. I’m disqualifying clergy (though I’m NOT disqualifying devout lay worshippers), but otherwise you’d have been right about eight out of ten. (Well, only two out of ten if I hadn’t also tossed rulers out of the mix.)
I’m also leaving influence right out of things (no matter how much using it allows its wielder to increase their profits in a given field, market, season, or situation). Sorry, Dargoth, but in terms of wealth I’m largely also going to exclude fixed assets (land and buildings), to leave just cash or cash equivalents (like crops and warehouses full of swords or plowshares that were bought with cash for resale at a profit) - - though I WILL include rents (from owned or controlled rental properties).
Which brings us to the following ten “coin mountains” (yes, that’s what folk in the Realms call anyone who’s “stinking rich”). These are the richest ten, but I’m not going to say how rich, because I haven’t enough years left in my life to start counting - - so they aren’t listed in any ranked order, just as I came to them in my notes (yes, I’ve expanded the notes and updated them to 3.5e).

* Colnd Hurthblaer of Amn (NE male Chondathan human Rog7/Exp6), a middle-aged, nondescript recluse who lives quietly (spending little on himself and even less on public show) in Athkatla, running five shipping fleets and two trading costers (most folk, even trade rivals, don’t know he owns more than just one fleet, Brightstar Sails Trading, the one he built from nothing). He’s a large landlord in Amn and, during the Interregnum, became one in Tethyr, too. He particularly likes owning gem mines, and (through various intermediaries) has been hiring adventurers to travel all over Faerûn buying or seizing control of same.

* Ralan Razhiirym of Calimport (NE male Calishite human Ftr6/Ari5/Exp4), a black-bearded, now-ailing adventurer and rake born into wealth and (through smuggling, extortion, and forcible acquisition of drug trade concerns and costers) become much richer. Still acrobatic, he has the remains of flashy good looks, and formerly wenched his way across half Faerûn, shamelessly using the women he seduced to gain favours, information, contacts, and administrative decisions and permissions that his traders profited from.

* Sabbalad Asnam huul Marouk of Darrak’shar (CE male Calishite human Rog9/Exp7), a one-eyed, scarred former gem thief who fell into the service of the Syl-Pasha of Calimport, and was rewarded with his present rank (mayor of a fictitious settlement, which allows him to speak in support of the Syl-Pasha’s aims and policies as a mayor rather than an agent of the Syl-Pasha, and to appear as a selfless patriot, rather than a mouthpiece of the Syl-Pasha, when he travels The Shining Sea region as an unofficial envoy or diplomat for Calimshan, amplifying or backing up the official emissaries). While on his travels, Marouk never misses a chance to enrich himself. Strangely, he’s a friend and sometime ally and partner of Sammereza Sulphontis of Waterdeep, and he’s been known to trade with, and act for, yuan-ti in the region. All of which has armed him with antidotes for most snake venoms that most humans can never get, enabled him to control a lot of drug and ivory trading, and (through hired adventurers who soon fell prey to “accidents” of his devising) plunder rich tombs and dragon hoards (the dragons were slain in the process). He has several hidden lairs in caverns and cellars around The Shining Sea coasts, and most of them contain more gems than a man can carry.

* Stort Melharhammer of Mirabar (NE male shield dwarf Ftr4/Rog12), a black-bearded, honey-voiced, well-groomed trader who acts as a moneylender, moneychanger, and go-between for dwarves and visiting shipcaptains, smoothing out negotiations (but often engineering false “shortages” so as to increase gem-prices for the dwarves; he always takes a cut of any increase he engineers). Stort is completely amoral, doesn’t drink, enjoys only watching elf maidens dance and hearing harp music, and lives and breathes to scheme and manipulate and “win the next deal.” When he can’t move in his underground abode for the accumulated coins and gems, he hires some trusted young dwarves (paying them handsomely) to go and buy him some more property in Neverwinter, Waterdeep, and Baldur’s Gate (in each city, he’s now a landlord of more than a dozen buildings, though he’s never seen any of them). If he didn’t spend money to influence politics in Luskan and Ruathym so as to prevent widespread warfare, he’d be even richer than he is (unless, as he judges, said warfare would have hurt trade through Mirabar, and thus cost him more).

* Elmraeda Gondoalyn of Iyrynspire (CN female Mulan human Ari9), the quiet, elegant, shrewd, and aging rich widow (of three wealthy merchants, all of whom she loved and had nothing to do with the deaths of) in Chessenta. Gondoalyn is now gaunt and frail, but protects her person with some powerful items of magic (mainly rings; takes vary as to which ones, which probably means she has a large collection). She dwells in Iyrynspire (a castle in the countryside built for her by her first husband, the shipping merchant Yarlos Melrorn) with a devoted staff and a strong bodyguard of “knights” (a sixty-some-strong private army of full-plate-armored Ftr3-8s), and entertains herself by watching others live their lives through her crystal ball (that can detect thoughts). Elmraeda lavishes money on “her people” (staff and bodyguard; her steward Deln Maerintor is a LN male Mulan human Wiz13 who’s devoted to her) but spends little on herself. Her wealth increases steadily through rents from properties in a dozen cities, and (through several trading costers) ownership of over forty trading caravels. It’s rumored that one of the towers of her home is in truth the only privately-owned Halruaan skyship in Chessenta.


* Fuorn “Fallingstar” Avilanter of Elventree (CG male moon elf Sor19/Exp9), a seller of spells and enspelled gems of his own making (gems of spell storing) who trades discreetly with rich Sembian buyers through trusted adventurers of the Dales. A reclusive master of disguises who wears teleport rings and makes himself impossible for those who come seeking him to find, Fuorn spends all of his profits buying up city properties in Yhaunn and Saerloon, operating through agents and largely-fictitious Sembian trading companies. He also owns a few buildings in Suzail and in Teziir, and spends his free time magically spying on certain humans he’s found by accident, just watching their intrigues and achievements and pratfalls, enjoying their lives vicariously as entertainment in much the same way Gondoalyn [[note from THO: see my previous post]] does.

* Burnyl Talongar of Phsant (LN male Turami human Exp14), known to most Theskians only as “The Lord of Gems,” this unusually tall and thin, taciturn gemcutter and appraiser secretly acts as a bank and sponsor for many merchants through Thesk. His loans and deals are single-handedly responsible for slowing the spread of the Shadowmasters’ influence in the region, but they tolerate him because certain senior priests of Mask owe so much to him that the deity has personally ordered them to “keep him untouched—by anyone.” Talongar is unaware of this, and simply goes about his business, which is to make fair deals with everyone, and adhere to them strictly, dealing always with politeness and honour. As a result, he’s trusted by everyone, gets a LOT of business, and grows steadily and inexorably wealthier. Operating through seacaptain clients, he regularly invests this wealth in farms and warehouses in Impiltur, Alaghôn, and Westgate.

* Gelkul “Goldhands” Alanskul of Heldapan (LN male Durpari human Exp11), the wealthiest trader and investor in Durpar, a bald-from-birth, coldly calculating man who’s always eager to learn more of events, feuds, trade, and the investments of others. As they say in Heldapan, “no one breathes without Alanskul knowing it.” He owns most of Turelve (though he takes some pains to keep anyone from knowing this, owning properties under dozens of aliases and through various merchants’ partnerships), and many of the best upland wells in the country (he covertly sells water in very dry times). Goldhands grows edible broad”moonleaf” (white broadleaf lettuce-like fungi that flourishes in the dark) in damp cellars under his holdings in Heldapan, and makes good coin daily by selling this staple (the poor fry it in various fats and oils, as a main daily ‘hearty vegetable’) in its markets; again, he takes care that no one knows he’s the source. Most Durpari think Alanskul is just what he started out as: a moneylender and landlord to the wealthy.

* Indamu Dundardir of Chavyondat (NE male Arkaiun human Ari10/Exp5), a noble of Estagund, is a darkly handsome glutton of a man who keeps his thin frame (and resists poisons) only because he allows a small beast (of unknown identity) to live symbiotically with him, fastened to his body. A loner, he gets his satisfaction by successfully manipulating everyone and outdealing rivals. Dundardir secretly controls an ancient portal network linking various cellars in his home city with a trading compound he owns in the countryside east of Sheirtalar. One of the cellars belongs to a rival, and Dundardir’s men use it (very rarely) to pilfer certain cargoes; the others all belong to Dundardir, and he shuttles goods (usually wines, cheeses, and other perishables, or contraband) back and forth, concentrating on items of high worth so that the volume of goods passing through the portals need not be high to bring handsome profits. Dundardir spends a lot of coin training, paying, and rewarding (with perks) his personal bodyguards and armed staff, to buy their loyalties. Thus far (aided by the spying his hired wizards do, on everyone else) he’s kept betrayals to a minimum and earnings VERY high. Much of Dundardir’s profits are put into discreetly buying up property all over the Tashalar.

* Nalune Tassarat of Ormpur (CE female Tashalan human Rog7/Exp6) is an aging former prostitute who invested her earnings lifelong in shady smuggling, slaving, drug-dealing and thieving concerns, making much coin that in later life she invested in building luxurious brothels and palatial city towers that were from the first split into rental housing, floor by floor, and proved a huge hit with Ormpurrians who weren’t quite wealthy enough to own and maintain large mansions, but wanted luxury and haughty addresses. “Old Nalune” always wanted hidden tunnels and chambers in her buildings, and made quite a lot of sideline coin servicing persons who needed to go into hiding for a time, or who wanted to meet pleasure-lasses VERY discreetly. Now, in the twilight of her years, she’s increasingly investing in clever traders from Tharsult and Lantan, sponsoring them on fair terms - - and raking in coins as a result. It’s said she sleeps on a bed of cabochon-cut (smooth-polished) rubies, and is beginning to consort with necromancers with an eye to achieving undeath for herself.

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Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight

Icelander: use the NPC detailed at the end of the "Play the Market" section of Power of Faerun (i.e. Dabron Sashenstar), which shows the total profit modifier of this merchant prince. It uses the business rules detailed in DMG2.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Dabron_Sashenstar

Cheers!

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Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight

(remember, there's no lawyers yet in Waterdeep! )

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight

(remember, there's no lawyers yet in Waterdeep! )

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There were... But they broke their contract with the city and can no longer operate there. It was in issue 23 of the AD&D comic, the one that has my all-time fave artwork of Kyriani.

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Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight

Icelander, the 1400gp a month is the net profit he gains from this one business (i.e. merchant league). It includes all costs (salaries, capital investments, input materials, etc.)

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I have used the DMG2 in my game and it is very well balanced. A PC can have multiple businesses, run by NPCs he appoints to run the show (but the PC remains the founding member/owner/original investor), and having multiple businesses is when this system becomes profitable (just like serial venturers in real life!)

Give Dabron a break! he just came back from the Endless Waste!! give him a few years and he will have a few businesses running (i.e. he's got all 5 levels of merchant prince, and he gets a 50% discount on capital investments, for the sake of Waukeen! )

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Edit: the real estate market in Waterdeep is way above the costs listed in DMG2, and that's fine... you got to think out of the box. A half-elf, dwarf or elf would not care to take a 100-year mortgage; and most humans who chafe at not being the full owners of their land can always still take a 100-year mortgage and sell it at the end of their life, keeping whatever they've invested in it so far... so nothing is lost (remember, there's no lawyers yet in Waterdeep! )

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Originally posted by Icelander

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight

(remember, there's no lawyers yet in Waterdeep! )

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There were... But they broke their contract with the city and can no longer operate there. It was in issue 23 of the AD&D comic, the one that has my all-time fave artwork of Kyriani.

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I remember this bit of lore being alluded to in a short story about The Society of Stalwart Venturers in Suzail.

Do you remember when this happened? And what it was that the lawyers did?

And do you know where in Faerun lawyers are particularly strong as a group?

I'm afraid I have to confess some partiality to lawyers, since I happen to be one.

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In Japan, there is one lawyer for every 7325 people.
In France, there is one lawyer for every 1634 people.
In the US, there is one lawyer for every 288 people.

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Originally posted by Icelander

Therefore, it beggars belief that a market which includes such high-risk, high-yield investment opportunities like low-tech trade over pirate infested waters and adventuring expeditions would have a low real interest rate on capital. Capital is scarce, given that we have plenty of undeveloped land, and therefore should have a high positive real marginal productivity.

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Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Look... for the purposes of owning businesses within the D&D game framework, DMG2 works fine. You're overanalyzing things here. If you want to run an economic simulation in lieu of a D&D game, you can do so... but good luck! even real-world economic models can't represent reality perfectly...

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

The lawyers were manipulated by Khelben into having to enforce a marriage contract. The lawyer assigned to the task failed to see that it was carried out, instead choosing to run in a panic. As he was leaving, Khelben warned him that leaving would break the contract the lawyers had with the city. The lawyer was so determined to escape that he didn't care.

The whole thing was a plot set up by Khelben to get the lawyers out of the city.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I don't know that lawyers are particularly strong anywhere in the Realms. I wouldn't imagine that there's more than a handful in any but the most lawful cities... And even then, it would depend in part on how the city was ruled, and on the culture of the city/nation.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Here's a tidbit I read the other day:

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In Japan, there is one lawyer for every 7325 people.
In France, there is one lawyer for every 1634 people.
In the US, there is one lawyer for every 288 people.

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Now, I don't know how accurate those numbers are, but if they're even close to correct, they show how each culture is different. The source I got these numbers from was discussing how the Japanese, with their more group-oriented society, don't litigate civil disputes as much, and that their laws are structured (according to that author) in a more common sense manner.

With laws in the Realms often being very straight-forward, and with sometimes capricious rulers in place, I just don't see there being much room for lawyers in the system.

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Originally posted by Icelander

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

The lawyers were manipulated by Khelben into having to enforce a marriage contract. The lawyer assigned to the task failed to see that it was carried out, instead choosing to run in a panic. As he was leaving, Khelben warned him that leaving would break the contract the lawyers had with the city. The lawyer was so determined to escape that he didn't care.

The whole thing was a plot set up by Khelben to get the lawyers out of the city.

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Why did Khelben want lawyers out of the city?

I've often heard prejudice against lawyers, but the more complex society becomes, the more they are needed. And Waterhavian trade practices can presumably get a bit complex sometimes.

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Originally posted by Icelander

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I don't know that lawyers are particularly strong anywhere in the Realms. I wouldn't imagine that there's more than a handful in any but the most lawful cities... And even then, it would depend in part on how the city was ruled, and on the culture of the city/nation.

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Are they allowed in Cormyr, for example? What about Sembia? Does the Church of Tyr anywhere function as lawyers in some capacity (I've found in my campaigns that they often arbitrate disputes, at least)?

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Originally posted by Icelander

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Here's a tidbit I read the other day:

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In Japan, there is one lawyer for every 7325 people.
In France, there is one lawyer for every 1634 people.
In the US, there is one lawyer for every 288 people.

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Now, I don't know how accurate those numbers are, but if they're even close to correct, they show how each culture is different. The source I got these numbers from was discussing how the Japanese, with their more group-oriented society, don't litigate civil disputes as much, and that their laws are structured (according to that author) in a more common sense manner.

With laws in the Realms often being very straight-forward, and with sometimes capricious rulers in place, I just don't see there being much room for lawyers in the system.

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Where there are laws, there is a need for people who specialise in applying and interpreting it.

We can maybe assume that civil litigation is rare, in the absence of clear cut breach of contract cases, and that magistrates in most places actively investigate the cases, rendering prosecutors and defence counsel unnecessary; but I can't see how you escape the need for large-scale merchants and moneylenders to have experts who write, interpret and enforce their contracts.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

He didn't see a need for them. He felt they were not only unnecessary, but undesirable.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Really, that comic is the only reference to lawyers in the Realms that I know of.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

If the laws are logical, straight-forward, and well-explained, I don't see a need for someone to interpret them.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

And if there are mechanisms in place to prevent breach of contract -- like neutral third parties or magical reinforcement -- then lawyers are again unnecessary.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

I think you're trying to apply modern, real-world thinking to a world that is neither modern nor real. The laws of most Realmsian nations are simply not complex enough to require interpretation.

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Originally posted by Talwyn

From campaigns I've been involved in both P&P and also online NWN, lawyers are hardly about and it was often paladins and priests of Tyr who investigated legal matters on behalf of which ever noble or mechant who needed legal representation. Of course, Tormish paladins and priests also where often consulted however they would defer to the Tyran's clergy on such matters unless they were absolutely certain on the point of law.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

Really, that comic is the only reference to lawyers in the Realms that I know of.

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

He felt they were not only unnecessary, but undesirable.

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