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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Jul 2008 : 18:27:24
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quote:
Originally posted by capnvan
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Lawyers aren't a modern invention. They've existed in every single society that becomes complex enough.
'Strewth. "Twas Shakespeare, after all, who wrote: "The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers."
And the golden age of lawyers was probably Republican Rome.
The ability to enforce contracts is a prerequisite for the kind of commerce that goes on in many parts of the Realms. Hence, I'd like to establish something about how it's done.
As I said, I'm postulating the clergy of Tyr as arbitrators and legal advisors to the common people, the clergy of Waukeen as notaries and (for a price) guarantors for contracts and for other clergy to perhaps perform similar services for contracts relating to their portfolios.
I don't think it really fits the established governing authorites in most parts of the Realms to arbitrate private disputes arising from differing interpretrations of contractual obligations. Sembia and Amn might be obvious exceptions, of course.
Might a question for Ed be in order? After all, it is quite important to many games how a moneylender or employer goes about enforcing a contract that the characters cannot fulfill. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2008 : 23:03:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Might a question for Ed be in order?
Of course! He always likes questions from fans. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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thom
Seeker
USA
69 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2008 : 21:53:33
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I can't remember what year it was that he was asked, but Ed has said that there are no lawyers 'per se' in the Realms. There are what is called 'advocates' who speak for the defendant. Here's a cut-and-paste from my Word file of his replies:
...The Realms does NOT have barristers and solicitors, robed and wigged or otherwise. It DOES have some advocates, paid orators who will speak in court (always in the presence of an accused, not appearing in his or her stead) who may know something of the law and can give advice to an accused. some orators are real ‘showmen’ who mimic the voices of people, act out things, and engage in furious debate in court -- which, being great entertainment, is seldom cut short even by angry judges or rulers, because the ‘common people’ like it..
He obviously said more, but this is all I chose to save for my campaign.  Hope it helps!
thom
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jul 2008 : 23:41:54
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| Latest canon source (Power of Faerun) reinforces that there are no lawyer as we know them in the Realms... read the "Order in the Court" chapter... |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jul 2008 : 07:49:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Latest canon source (Power of Faerun) reinforces that there are no lawyer as we know them in the Realms... read the "Order in the Court" chapter...
I've read it.
But the absence of criminal lawyers is much easier to believe than the complete absence of business and contract lawyers.
Kings and lords can handle hanging and flogging those they want hanged and flogged without much in the way of lawyers getting in the way. That's fine and certainly worked in history. I'm just having difficulty imaging them running around arbitrating small claims, solving arguments over the meaning of clauses in contracts and so on and so forth.
Historically, some societies didn't have legal remedies to enforce contracts. Historically, such societies also didn't have complex mercantile arrangements, moneylenders and/or other features of the major powers in Faerun.
We know that a merchant of Waterdeep, Suzail or Saerloon can buy his wares on credit if he's well established, he can form a coster or priakos with other merchants, he can even employ agents in far-flung places to buy merchandise for him.
But what does he do when someone he has an agreement with simply refues to honour it? Who does he turn to? Do local authorities really handle such disputes? If so, they'll spend much more time on those than keeping the peace and punishing criminals. If the merchant has got no recourse but to hire violent criminals to beat the defaulter up or kill him (or at the very least intimidate him), then I find it hard to believe that trade can really be as widespread as it canonically is in Faerun.
I can't think of any trading culture in our world that came close to the size and power of Amn or Sembia without lawyers being involved. |
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Edited by - Icelander on 27 Jul 2008 07:51:05 |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2008 : 03:08:11
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As far as I have read, Powers of Faerun seems to indicate that courtiers are the ones handling transactions, negotiating, and such (courtiers being senior public servants acting on behalf of the crown - say in Cormyr - or in the absence of a government, on behalf of the ruling nobles or city state council)
As for enforcement of contracts, I have not read that chapter yet but I believe "The Heralds" do this across the Realms (some kind of international standards enforcers... literally "standard bearers")
Someone can correct me here but I'm starting to believe the Heralds are the glue that holds trade together, or at least somekind of "Charter of Freedoms" or "Rules for Everyone to Get Along Together."
Ok, I'm off to read about them in more details now...  |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2008 : 07:21:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
As far as I have read, Powers of Faerun seems to indicate that courtiers are the ones handling transactions, negotiating, and such (courtiers being senior public servants acting on behalf of the crown - say in Cormyr - or in the absence of a government, on behalf of the ruling nobles or city state council)
The courtiers certainly negotiate transactions on behalf of the state polity or noble that they personally serve, but they do not act for the likes of Varandrons Dyre, master builder of Waterdeep, or Szwentil Illeon, master merchant of Marsember.
In Cormyr, certainly, crown-appointed bailiffs in service of the local lord canonically enforce contracts (bailiffs selling items confiscated for debt is mentioned in Volo's Guide to Cormyr). This is because Cormyr is a country with a strong, centralised state authority. Waterdeep, however, does not appear to have the heavy hand of the state involved in business as much as Cormyr.
Varandros Dyre employs clever young clerks, presumably familiar with the relevant laws. But what do these clerks do when someone who has signed a contract with their master cites a differing understanding of a key clause in the contract?
In my Realms, at least, they go to a cleric of Tyr, Waukeen or another applicible god that witnessed the contract. This cleric arbitrates the dispute. If the parties cannot come to an agreement, the priest makes a ruling that both sides agree to live by.
quote:
As for enforcement of contracts, I have not read that chapter yet but I believe "The Heralds" do this across the Realms (some kind of international standards enforcers... literally "standard bearers")
Someone can correct me here but I'm starting to believe the Heralds are the glue that holds trade together, or at least somekind of "Charter of Freedoms" or "Rules for Everyone to Get Along Together."
Ok, I'm off to read about them in more details now...
I see nothing in the text that suggests that Heralds concern themselves with the enforcement of financial agreements. On the contrary, I think that doing so would undermine their important authority in the realm of heraldry.
That's why, in my campaign, I've postulated the clergy of certain gods as impartial arbitrators. Waukeen, especially, has much to gain by providing such a service. |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2008 : 13:13:32
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quote:
1. Ed recently wrote (sorry, don't have the link at the moment, it's around page 51 of his latest answers) that there are no lawyers in Cormyr. Whether he means exactly what you mean by lawyer, I'm not sure; and I'd be hesitant to posit.
It was in the Women of the Woods answer he recently gave. My understanding was that he was refering to licensed lawyers in the modern sense.
quote:
2. I'm wondering whether your statement above is true. I'm a child and, to some extent, a scholar of the Western Canon, and I agree that, in the West, what you've written is true. But I wonder whether, outside of the Hellenic-Roman-Judeo-Christian tradition, what you wrote about lawyers existing in every complex culture is correct.
I'm familiar with the idea of an Islamic lawyer, for example, but I confess that I don't know enough about Islamic law to state that they play the same role in that culture that they do in the West. And I know even less about Hindu, Buddhist, Shintoist, African, et al. cultures.
Perhaps a scribe with more knowledge of those cultures could weigh in?
I can't think of a single culture that has managed to carry on international trade on a large-scale without some form of legal practisoners who can interpret and enforce contracts.
Islam evolved in a part of the world that already had a lot of trade and as such, quickly grew to include laws about business practises and specialists who interpreted them. The Qur'an specifies legal interest rates for loans and so on. Enforcing contracts in Islamic countries would, before centralised state authority, probably be done by the local iman.
The Realms doesn't have to have anything named lawyers, if Ed has some objection to that term. But there has to be some means of interpreting disputed clauses in contracts, or trade will resemble the European 'Dark' Ages more than what is currently described in Realmslore. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2008 : 15:50:19
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Icelander, the role of adjudicating legal agreements is carried out by at least four groups, depending on where you are in the Realms:
1. heralds (who concern themselves most with definitions and identifications, such as whether you are the "Hrundar the Potter" named on the parchment, and what is meant by "my best wagon")
2. courtiers
3. local Black Robes (magistrates)
4. clerics of many deities (such as Tyr)
Now, if you're looking for "independent of government" representatives, their role is filled in larger cities (all capitals along the Sword Coast, for example, and in Sembia) by the hired "advocates" Ed has mentioned in the past. Courtiers and Black Robes tend to make rulings strongly supportive of what rulers tell them to say, or in "lock step" support of existing government policy . . . but then, that's the real-world situation, too, almost everywhere.
This reply is drawn from my play over the years in the Realms with Ed as DM. If you'd like a deeper lore response, post a query in this year's Questions for Eddie thread, as you did re. the gems and sailing times, and I'll make sure he sees it. He WILL respond (how soon, I can't say).
love,
THO |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2008 : 17:00:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
The Realms doesn't have to have anything named lawyers, if Ed has some objection to that term.
That's how I interpret things, I have to admit. In the Realms, you might not find "Smith and Brown, P.C.", staffed by Richard Brown, Esq. and John Smith, Esq. But that doesn't mean there's no one around fulfilling their basic role, or that their basic role in society isn't necessary. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 28 Jul 2008 17:01:14 |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2008 : 17:09:39
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Icelander, the role of adjudicating legal agreements is carried out by at least four groups, depending on where you are in the Realms:
1. heralds (who concern themselves most with definitions and identifications, such as whether you are the "Hrundar the Potter" named on the parchment, and what is meant by "my best wagon")
Ah, that's interesting. Very well, I'm sure this will enrich my campaign.
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2. courtiers
3. local Black Robes (magistrates)
Do these enforce contracts? If Varandros Dyre agreed to build an adjunt to the Thann estate before Greengrass DR 1369 and failed to deliver, would the magistrates send bailiffs or Watchmen to confiscate the part of the payment already rendered?
Would the magistrates arbitrate a dispute between the parties as to whether a stipulation about 'glass windows sised so and so' refered to a specific type of glass from Calimport that the Thann steward said was verbally agreed to, but Master Dyre insisted was fully met with his Neverwinter glass windows?
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4. clerics of many deities (such as Tyr)
Now, that's what I thought!
I know you're not Ed, but chances are you are at least marginally less busy, so would you mind if I asked you some more? 
I'd guess that Helm, Tyr, Torm and Waukeen were the main deities that concern themselves with this task. Is this true? What other churches do this?
Can one get a priest to witness contracts, in order to make it harder for the other party to claim fraud or misunderstanding at the signing? If so, does the church charge for this?
quote:
Now, if you're looking for "independent of government" representatives, their role is filled in larger cities (all capitals along the Sword Coast, for example, and in Sembia) by the hired "advocates" Ed has mentioned in the past. Courtiers and Black Robes tend to make rulings strongly supportive of what rulers tell them to say, or in "lock step" support of existing government policy . . . but then, that's the real-world situation, too, almost everywhere.
Clerics are independent from the government (mostly) and far more reliable than any other group could be (the bad apples are weeded out more actively than in any government-overseen licensing program). If priests of Tyr, Torm, Helm and Waukeen are available for such services, 'normal' legal specialists are almost unnecessary.
quote:
This reply is drawn from my play over the years in the Realms with Ed as DM. If you'd like a deeper lore response, post a query in this year's Questions for Eddie thread, as you did re. the gems and sailing times, and I'll make sure he sees it. He WILL respond (how soon, I can't say).
love,
THO
I'd rather bother other scribes, ones with less on their plate, before I disturb the Primary Source. Then I can be sure that Ed hasn't already answered what I'm thinking about and I get the chance to consider the question so I can ask it with maximum clarity and minimum wasted energy on Ed's part.
I might ask Ed about the role of clergy in the arbitration and enforcement of contracts. It sounds like an important subject that has been neglected. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jul 2008 : 18:32:59
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Hi, Icelander. I must rush off now, but have time enough to confirm that clerics DO witness contracts and do charge for this service (as in: "make an offering to the temple" if they're temple-based, or "coins for the god" [ = in my hand] if they're wandering, hermits, or shrine-keepers).
More later. Promise.
love,
THO |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jul 2008 : 01:46:09
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| Thanks for the clarifications, Dear Lady Hooded. This will enrich my Realms and remove much confusion. I will read over the Heralds section of Power of Faerun once more, with emphasis on trade, contracts and disputes. Thanks! |
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Big money
