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Tethir the dragonslayer
Acolyte
11 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Apr 2008 : 22:53:24
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Does anyone have the rules on killing *cough dragon cough* Gods? I think they are in The book Deities and Demigods. If anyone could help me out I would appreciate it.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2008 : 00:59:11
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I've never been much of an advocate for statting the gods, so I doubt I can be much help here. However, I would ask whether you've read the initial sections of Faiths & Avatars -- which focus specifically on deity birth and death.
While god-killing isn't anything I'd ever visit in my FR campaign, I would think that a through reading of those sections in Faiths & Avatars should be required before attempting something like this.
It's also important to note that while mortals can slay deities, they do mostly need divine assistance in order to do it. |
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Tethir the dragonslayer
Acolyte
11 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2008 : 01:30:40
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| Thank you, Just need to go to the bookstore now, and the reason I ask is I have been killing lots and lots of dragons... I've almost killed off all the dragons in DoF (I have been playing a LONG time...) and I think someone should be pretty pissed about it. |
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Tethir the dragonslayer
Acolyte
11 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2008 : 01:48:37
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| Hmmm, I wonder what dragon Asgorath would be... |
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GoCeraf
Learned Scribe
147 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2008 : 04:38:24
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Incidentally, you could see Faiths and Pantheons, which stat out these creatures, and even if you tossed out all the extraneous divine powers of each god, you've still got a ludicrously powerful enemy.
I'd liken slaying deities to destroy major artifacts; you can't do just by whacking it with a sword. Even then, I'd imagine that all deities have some sort of backup plan (if the Manshoon can manage to give himself quite a few identity crises, I bet gods could, too).
Also, I'd imagine that gods have a similar system to other outsiders, in that if they are killed away from home, they are sort of spirited back. Of course, I doubt anything other than an avatar would show up elsewhere, so that's a bit of a moot point.
Finally, you get down to the fact that there's a lot more to a god than his or her physical form, and that destroying that still leaves a huge amount of divine power. Look, for instance, at Myrkul. If you accept Mask of the Betrayer as canon, then he's still mostly conscious and affecting events on Toril. So even if you off a god, there's still the fact that the world at large might not know about it.
Dead deities maintain some semblance of life if they are still worshipped. Now that I think about it, since you've been slaying dragons left and right for a long time, I'd imagine that a great deal of these gods' draconic worshippers (though pious is probably not the right word) are dead. That'll leave the more humanoid worshippers, which I doubt would much of a problem if you can behead dragons as an occupation.
It's kinda like draining the oil outta the car. Sure, it might run for a minute, but the engine's gonna s'plode at some point.
All the best. |
Being sarcastic can be more telling than simply telling. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2008 : 11:47:36
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You'll have a hard time finding F&A in the bookstores, better look for PDFs over at Paizo or RPGnow.
Anyway, F&P or e.g. the web-enhancement to City of the Spider Queen (the drow deity Kiaransalee is statted in there) will give you a few ideas about what deities are capable of. And do not forget that most of these statblock do not include epic magic either (nor are they correct in all cases - e.g. missing item creation and all). One don't just get the statblock out and starts bashing them either. Most gods are omnipotent (compared even to epic level dragon-bashers), especially on their home turf, where most can simply say what happens and functions and what does not. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2008 : 15:17:20
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Apparently, 4E rules will be amenable to god-slaying. However, according to Rich Baker, it will still be a difficult task, and perhaps only possible under a very narrow set of circumstances. It's also set to be a "once in a character's lifetime" type of thing.
Just figured I'd mention that.  |
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--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2008 : 15:56:53
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| http://www.d20srd.org/ also has the rules for giving a god stats, but no write ups for gods. Look under the "Divine Rules" section. Since the SRD for 3.5 is free, and will continue to stay free, then this is an excellent resource for those who decide to continue with the current edition instead of moving onto 4e. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36875 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2008 : 16:51:14
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quote:
Originally posted by GoCeraf
Look, for instance, at Myrkul. If you accept Mask of the Betrayer as canon, then he's still mostly conscious and affecting events on Toril.
Myrkul is still around -- just not as a deity. He's currently occupying the Crown of Horns, and is happier not being a deity. |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2008 : 16:53:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by GoCeraf
Look, for instance, at Myrkul. If you accept Mask of the Betrayer as canon, then he's still mostly conscious and affecting events on Toril.
Myrkul is still around -- just not as a deity. He's currently occupying the Crown of Horns, and is happier not being a deity.
yeah, all that responsiblity can really weigh on you after a while... |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2008 : 17:05:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Aravine
yeah, all that responsiblity can really weigh on you after a while...
Further, Gods have a lot more folks watching their actions. |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2008 : 17:08:26
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
quote:
Originally posted by Aravine
yeah, all that responsiblity can really weigh on you after a while...
Further, Gods have a lot more folks watching their actions.
And then you have all the Cyrics of the world trying to kill you and take your portfolio... |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2008 : 17:21:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Aravine
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by GoCeraf
Look, for instance, at Myrkul. If you accept Mask of the Betrayer as canon, then he's still mostly conscious and affecting events on Toril.
Myrkul is still around -- just not as a deity. He's currently occupying the Crown of Horns, and is happier not being a deity.
yeah, all that responsiblity can really weigh on you after a while...
It's more than that. In fact, what's left of Myrkul himself doesn't seem to want to be a deity again. This was explicitly stated in the City of Splendors boxed set:-
"Myrkul actually enjoys his new existence and the ability to foment dissent, chaos, and death without the strictures inherent in being one of Ao's gods; his greatest satisfaction is in disrupting the organization of the Cyric-worshipers and in destroying any worshipers of Mystra (who caused Myrkul's destruction)."
I don't think it's really any surprise that Myrkul "enjoys" his current state. Being somewhat removed from under Ao's divine thumb would certainly have its advantages... especially for a former deity who still likes to meddle in mortal affairs -- fear and terror can still be powerful "weapons of influence" in his arsenal, just as his unpredictability still would be.
As it is... I do like the idea of Myrkul in this state. If I had followed the path of the ToT in my campaign, 'tis likely this version of Myrkul would indeed be a part of my FR.
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2008 : 17:28:06
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Aravine
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by GoCeraf
Look, for instance, at Myrkul. If you accept Mask of the Betrayer as canon, then he's still mostly conscious and affecting events on Toril.
Myrkul is still around -- just not as a deity. He's currently occupying the Crown of Horns, and is happier not being a deity.
yeah, all that responsiblity can really weigh on you after a while...
It's more than that. In fact, what's left of Myrkul himself doesn't seem to want to be a deity again. This was explicitly stated in the City of Splendors boxed set:-
"Myrkul actually enjoys his new existence and the ability to foment dissent, chaos, and death without the strictures inherent in being one of Ao's gods; his greatest satisfaction is in disrupting the organization of the Cyric-worshipers and in destroying any worshipers of Mystra (who caused Myrkul's destruction)."
I don't think it's really any surprise that Myrkul "enjoys" his current state. Being somewhat removed from under Ao's divine thumb would certainly have its advantages... especially for a former deity who still likes to meddle in mortal affairs -- fear and terror can still be powerful "weapons of influence" in his arsenal, just as his unpredictability still would be.
As it is... I do like the idea of Myrkul in this state. If I had followed the path of the ToT in my campaign, 'tis likely this version of Myrkul would indeed be a part of my FR.
Well put. My question is, are mortals totally out of the range of Ao's thumb? I was attacked by him in a campaign, and he was killed over it. but that 's not the point. but I could see where omeone would enjoy not being a diety. |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2008 : 17:39:59
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You killed Ao?
I'm sorry...I thought even all the Gods combined couldn't do that? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2008 : 17:52:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
You killed Ao?
I'm sorry...I thought even all the Gods combined couldn't do that?
yes, the book says he's imervious to all attacks, but it didn't say anything about his own.
we treated Ao as the god of Fate, which is why he could pretty much do anything he wanted(ToT. But my character was prophesied to be "the defier of Fate" "in other words, I could also do whatever I wanted, although I didn't know it until the end, directly after I fought an Aospawn(don't ask) I killed it, and then Daddy came out to play. he threw a bolt of energy at me, which I deflected back at him, thus ending his reign as god of fate, and elevating my character to that position. |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36875 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2008 : 20:32:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Aravine
we treated Ao as the god of Fate, which is why he could pretty much do anything he wanted(ToT. But my character was prophesied to be "the defier of Fate" "in other words, I could also do whatever I wanted, although I didn't know it until the end, directly after I fought an Aospawn(don't ask) I killed it, and then Daddy came out to play. he threw a bolt of energy at me, which I deflected back at him, thus ending his reign as god of fate, and elevating my character to that position.
But... If there was a prophecy, then that means it was his fate. Thus, the god of Fate would have known about it.
Of course, if he was prophesied to be able to defy Fate, then his defiance of Fate would be be fated, so it would cancel out.
Just sayin'. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2008 : 20:40:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Aravine
Well put. My question is, are mortals totally out of the range of Ao's thumb?
Oh no...
There is a lengthy argument about this (can AO be killed, and what are his stats?) on the WotC boards a few months back. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 04 Apr 2008 20:41:00 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36875 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2008 : 21:02:57
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If Ao can affect deities, who can affect mortals, then he can affect mortals. Besides, he already has, by elevating mortals to godhood.
As for killing him... Nope, can't be done. He's beyond deities, so that puts him well beyond mortals. It's like a gnat versus the Death Star -- even if five million of them launched a coordinated assault, it still wouldn't even be noticed.
And me, I translate "all attacks" as meaning ALL attacks -- even his own. The word "all" is generally accepted to mean "everything". |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2008 : 21:08:12
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I've never wanted to actually SLAP someone's DM before.... 
If you do - somhow - manage to kill a God (and Ao's is to the gods what they are to us, and WAY out of a mortal's 'league') IG, then that PC should instantly be taken out of play and become an NPC god.
Not much of a reward, eh? Not being able to play your favorite power-munchkin anymore.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 04 Apr 2008 21:10:50 |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 04 Apr 2008 : 21:41:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I've never wanted to actually SLAP someone's DM before....
If you do - somhow - manage to kill a God (and Ao's is to the gods what they are to us, and WAY out of a mortal's 'league') IG, then that PC should instantly be taken out of play and become an NPC god.
Not much of a reward, eh? Not being able to play your favorite power-munchkin anymore.
which is pretty much what happened. |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2008 : 01:20:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Aravine
Well put. My question is, are mortals totally out of the range of Ao's thumb? I was attacked by him in a campaign, and he was killed over it. but that 's not the point. but I could see where omeone would enjoy not being a diety.
Ao attacked your character? That sounds like a bit of a divergence from what we've learnt about Ao's limited interaction with mortals in the past.
Why [and how] did he attack you?
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 05 Apr 2008 : 07:41:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Apparently, 4E rules will be amenable to god-slaying. However, according to Rich Baker, it will still be a difficult task, and perhaps only possible under a very narrow set of circumstances. It's also set to be a "once in a character's lifetime" type of thing.
Just figured I'd mention that.
Hey! Some characters are expert god-slayers, Bane for instance, and the possible champ, Orcus.
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GoCeraf
Learned Scribe
147 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2008 : 18:40:18
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Incidentally, Wooly, as per your argument about the Ao-to-mortals comparison being entirely linear...
...I'm seeing this horribly complex rock-paper-scissors situation formulating. I mean, Farmer X hasn't actually HAD the opportunity to elbow check Ao in the face. He doesn't exactly appear before ANY mortals, to be honest.
And I have to agree that Ao going out of his way to send a bolt of energy a PC's way is ludicrously out of character. I mean, the collateral...
Consequently, Aravine, was there anything LEFT of the field of battle after that little bit of baseball?
Oh, and about Myrkul. As I've said elsewhere, my FR experience is pretty limited, but I was pretty sure he was still around. As it is, if there's a rumor in a sourcebook, it's likely true. My point, though, was that Mask of the Betrayer gives a specific outlet for Myrkul's machinations. In this case, assuring his continued existence (not as a deity, but as an undead god-thing more than capable of making any high level adventurer's life difficult).
All the best. |
Being sarcastic can be more telling than simply telling. |
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Foxhelm
Senior Scribe
Canada
592 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2008 : 19:17:45
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I think it should be possible to do anything in the game if you have a good story going... yet people should not expect it to be easy, especially with AO.
To kill a god you have to first get the situation just right. Get the right equipment, know the right secrets, find the right time and place... an avoid the multiple countermeasures and rebirth triggers of the deity in question. Remembering you foe can can use most magics, can see the future and has at least a small army against you even if they are a dead god.
AO is likely to have ten times the power of a god, so to kill him you are literally going to have to do the impossible or rewrite the laws of the universe. You will have most of the deities of good and neutrality trying to stop you from causing chaos in the world the death of AO would bring. The Deities of Evil might help you, but only to get the event one would need to kill AO so they can do it themselves.
Just like one needs the approval of AO to become a god, it is likely you would need the approval of AO's superior to be overgod or else you will attacked by a reborn AO. |
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Jeiroth
Acolyte
27 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2008 : 21:38:54
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In my opinion killing a god should be accomplished in one of two ways.
1. Destroy all of his worshippers and then finally confront and kill him on his home plane, minding the fact that he can usually teleport at will.
2. Convince another deity to help you kill the deity on his home plane and then ursurp that deities portfolio, which then will solve the worshippers issue.
Of importance too is that most deities have allies who will rush to their aid. I mean legions of solars, planetars, thousands upon thousands of petitioners (especially clerics casting heal and miracle regularly upon their diety), and of course other dieties. If a mortal goes after say AO (lol), then AO should be able to call upon every deity in the cosmos to help him
flatten the cur, as they are all beholden to him. I never understood dudes who think that these Gods are sitting there alone in their realm just waiting for adventure party x,y,z to come invade and slay them in their lair.
It shouldn't work that way IMO.
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Karzak
Learned Scribe
196 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2008 : 22:48:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
Just like one needs the approval of AO to become a god, it is likely you would need the approval of AO's superior to be overgod or else you will attacked by a reborn AO.
Arrgh, not the Ao's superior thing. Wasn't it more or less agreed that the superior in question is a tongue-in-cheek embodiment of the DM? Unless there's been information published since then that states there's actually a "superior" floating out there somewhere. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2008 : 22:50:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Karzak
quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
Just like one needs the approval of AO to become a god, it is likely you would need the approval of AO's superior to be overgod or else you will attacked by a reborn AO.
Arrgh, not the Ao's superior thing. Wasn't it more or less agreed that the superior in question is a tongue-in-cheek embodiment of the DM? Unless there's been information published since then that states there's actually a "superior" floating out there somewhere.
There is such info. It's from Faiths & Avatars. It doesn't specify what a "A Luminous Being" is exactly but in game that is Ao's superior. |
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 20 Apr 2008 22:53:56 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2008 : 22:51:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Karzak
quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
Just like one needs the approval of AO to become a god, it is likely you would need the approval of AO's superior to be overgod or else you will attacked by a reborn AO.
Arrgh, not the Ao's superior thing. Wasn't it more or less agreed that the superior in question is a tongue-in-cheek embodiment of the DM? Unless there's been information published since then that states there's actually a "superior" floating out there somewhere.
The only information I've ever seen concerning Ao having a superior is in the novel Waterdeep. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 21 Apr 2008 : 13:29:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Karzak
quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
Just like one needs the approval of AO to become a god, it is likely you would need the approval of AO's superior to be overgod or else you will attacked by a reborn AO.
Arrgh, not the Ao's superior thing. Wasn't it more or less agreed that the superior in question is a tongue-in-cheek embodiment of the DM? Unless there's been information published since then that states there's actually a "superior" floating out there somewhere.
There is such info. It's from Faiths & Avatars. It doesn't specify what a "A Luminous Being" is exactly but in game that is Ao's superior.
Well, the good people at Wikipedia seem to think that's God. of course I have to believe that, since Wikipedia is so reliable |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
Edited by - Aravine on 21 Apr 2008 16:31:00 |
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Deicide...(God-Killing)
