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Karzak
Learned Scribe
196 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Apr 2008 : 15:44:04
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Hmm, I don't think I've seen too many fantasy novels done in that faux-historical style, though of course you've got Evermeet that's sort of like that, except not first person. Oh, and - yes, yes, you're getting tired of it now, but it's relevant - in the Fitz books, each chapter is prefaced with a bit of historical commentary. The protagonist himself attempts several times to write a history of the Six Duchies, though he's impeded by the fact that he feels he lets in too many personal elements. So you could view the novels in that light.
I've also seen some non-professional writers attempt it, and the potential pitfalls become abundantly clear: a historian/scholarly commentator is more likely than not going to be unbearably pretentious. In fact, it'd be first person with all the effects of third person omniscient, which I'm not sure will mix too well. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2008 : 16:09:57
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Hi, all.
Steve Brust did it in his Khaavren Romances (The Phoenix Guards, et al) as an intentional homage to Alexandre Dumas, and it worked.
However, the reader has to buy into the more leisurely pace of a narrator making comments while presenting action sequences.
It can be done, and done well (the classic early Charteris Saint stories prove this), but are increasingly less to the taste of modern readers (who want the action faster and the presentation more direct), and more importantly, to the taste of modern editors, who often throw fits when an author tries this, and make sure it gets "fixed" before seeing print.
(I say this as a sometime editor.  Who has heard a lot of "inside" industry stories at conventions and in the office and while drinking with colleagues, over the years.)
love to all,
THO |
Edited by - The Hooded One on 13 Apr 2008 16:17:17 |
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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe
Canada
434 Posts |
Posted - 13 Apr 2008 : 17:48:07
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
It can be done, and done well [...], but [it is] increasingly less to the taste of modern readers [...], and more importantly, to the taste of modern editors, who often throw fits when an author tries this, and make sure it gets "fixed" before seeing print.
(I say this as a sometime editor. Who has heard a lot of "inside" industry stories at conventions and in the office and while drinking with colleagues, over the years.)
Thanks for that THO. I suspected that this would be the case. I imagine the commercial publishing juggernaut is a lot like Hollywood in that it plays to a homogenized consumer and is resistant to novelty where it thinks the the bottom line might be effected. Innovative unconventional writers and directors, unless they have superstar status, have a hell of time finding venues for their work. |
Afet bint Tuzaní
"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2008 : 01:33:22
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Quite true. Case in point: the difficulty the director of SIN CITY had, in getting Miller aboard as co-director (had to resign from his director's union). He wanted Miller aboard to try to preserve the storytelling flavour of the original comic (graphic novel, if you prefer) version, when retelling the tale cinematically.
There have been a recent spate of YA and childrens' fantasy pirate novels (piratical novels where the ships can fly, there are dragons, aquatic undead, and other overtly fantastic elements) wherein first-person narrators appear and then recede into the background, only to move into the foreground again.
There's also Goldman's classic THE PRINCESS BRIDE and his later "by Morgenstern" novel as playful first-person narration by an author 'big enough' to get published just what he wants to get published, and Lin Carter's attempts to make his Callisto fantasy pulps seem manuscripts from a "real" narrator, sent through a fantasy gate (a conceit that extended to putting himself through the gate and writing a novel as "Lankar of Callisto," that was extended by other writers republishing some of these novels after Carter's death, who continued the "this is real" framing conceit.
By the way, these first-person narrative techniques are common in Cthulthu and Dreamlands HPL pastiches (by modern writers), and their intersection with Sherlock Holmes pastiches (such as the lighthearted Zelazny work I mentioned in an earlier post, but there are many, many shorter fiction examples). Ed Greenwood has come across far more than I have, and shared them with me. He's constantly finding little gems (like "Scream For Jeeves") and tossing them my way.
love,
THO |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2008 : 13:45:29
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Orson Scott Card's excellent book Characters & Viewpoint discusses some of the uses, strengths, and weaknesses of the various POV. Quoting briefly from page 162:
quote:
1. First-person and omniscient narrations are by nature more presentational than limited third-person--readers will notice the narrator more. If your goal is to get your readers emotionally involved with your main characters, with minimal distraction from their belief in the story, then the limited third-person narrator is your best choice.
2. If you're writing humor, however, first-person or omniscient narration can help you create comic distance. These intrusive narrators can make wry comments or write with the kind of wit that calls attention to itself, without jarring or surprising a reader who is deeply involved with the characters.
3. If you want brevity, covering great spans of time and space or many characyters without writing hundreds or thousands of pages to do it, the omniscient narrator may be your best choice.
4. If you want the sense of truth that comes from an eyewitness account, first person usually feels less fictional, more factual.
5. If you're uncertain of your ability as a writer, while you're quite confident of the strength of the story, the limited third-person narration invites a clean, unobstrusive writing style--a plain tale plainly told. You can still write beautifully using the limited third person, but your writing is more likely to be ignored--thus covering a multitude of sins.
Karzak mentioned Evermeet, which was an experiment in terms of POV. The huge time span covered in the book necessitated an omniscient narrator. This sprawling history is framed by not one but TWO framing stories: the present-day invasion of Evermeet, and an exchange of letters between the narrator, Danilo Thann, and various people with whom he corresponded. In the outer layer of the frame, the limitations, scope, and focus of the story are defined: Danilo is explaining the invasion of Evermeet by telling historical events leading up to it, and he is also creating a gift for Arilyn--the history of her elven family, the lore and legends of her people. A certain narrative distance is created by suggesting Dan, while not a traditional unreliable narrator, is not without bias. The third-person limited POV is employed to give immediacy to the small vignettes, and to attempt to give Arilyn a more personal understanding of Queen Amlaruil--the grandmother she knows only through legends and political news. In terms of POV, the book was a juggling act, quite unlike anything else I've written in the Realms.
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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe
Canada
434 Posts |
Posted - 14 Apr 2008 : 19:07:07
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Sounds interesting. I'll make that my next FR read. Hopefully enough people will buy it to send WotC the message that Experimentation can be profitable. At the risk of asking a indelicate question, how has Evermeet done in terms of sales and fandom response?
Cheers,
Afet |
Afet bint Tuzaní
"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham |
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First person narrators?
