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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe
Canada
434 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 13:41:41
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Well met, all.
Are there any FR novels with first person person narrators? Everything I've read so far, which isn't much, has had the usual anonymous, all seeing third person narrator who describes the action and jumps from head to head, giving us the thoughts of the various main characters. Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever read a Fantasy novel with a first person narrator. What would the benefits and limitations of a first person narrative be? I would be curious to have authors weigh in on this one.
Cheers,
Afet
Mod Edit: Found this scroll floating in the ether.
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Afet bint Tuzaní
"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham |
Edited by - The Sage on 02 Apr 2008 15:18:55
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 16:00:33
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I think there's a short story or two in the Realms of... anthologies that are written in the first person, but none of the novels that I know of.
As for fantasy in general, Robin Hobb's Farseer, Tawny Man, and Soldier Son trilogies are all written in the first person, as is Gene Wolfe's The Book of the New Sun (four books). |
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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe
Canada
434 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 16:05:31
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Any thoughts on whether you thought the first person narration worked well in the novels you mentioned? Why?
What made it work or not work for the circumstance?
Cheers,
Afet?
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Afet bint Tuzaní
"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham |
Edited by - Afetbinttuzani on 02 Apr 2008 16:09:35 |
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Karzak
Learned Scribe
196 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 16:08:04
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Haha, too slow. Kajehase pretty much said what I posted.
First person is, IMO, harder to do well. In Robin Hobb's trilogies, I'd always found Fitz's viewpoint hugely limiting, and often irritating - the character is extremely angsty well into his thirties, and there're times I'd rather see things from someone else's eyes. One of the effects, furthermore, is that many of the secondary characters feel flat and bland. You also need to make sure the narrator has a distinct voice (with his/her own linguistic quirks and particular ways of describing things), especially if you have several first-person viewpoints.
It's just as well most authors stick to third person. |
Edited by - Karzak on 02 Apr 2008 16:12:12 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 16:14:06
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| The Twilight War books have some chapters done in the first person, for a certain literary effect (I don't want to go into detail, because I'd rather not spoil what happens). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 16:58:30
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| Drizzt novels kinda have the occasional first person take. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 17:05:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Drizzt novels kinda have the occasional first person take.
You mean in the "journal entries"? Yes, that is an example. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe
Canada
434 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 17:43:30
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I agree that first person narration is difficult to do.
But there is another related issue that I think Karzak´s comment about finding the Fitz frustrating gets at. If the reader cannot identify with the chosen first person narrator and feels cheated out of knowing the other characters, the thing falls flat. The FR novels have to reach out to a reading audience with a very wide spread of ages (10-40 yrs old or so). In addition, many D&D readers prefer to play certain races over others and look to the novels for ideas about how to play their characters in a convincing way. The reader who always plays female elves could feel frustrated if she is stuck in the mind of a male dwarf and never gets to see into the motivations of the elven characters. So the best narrative tactic, to please as many readers as possible, is to jump from mind to mind.
Afet |
Afet bint Tuzaní
"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 18:06:17
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| I haven't really read any FR novels, but 1st person is always hard to do, regardless of what genre. |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Karzak
Learned Scribe
196 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 18:20:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Drizzt novels kinda have the occasional first person take.
Yes, and a perfect example of what not to do. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 18:31:21
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As for other fantasy: Grendel by John Gardner and Gene Wolfe's Book of the New Sun series are written in first person if I remember correctly. Good books, but not for everyone.
I have read a few others, but these are more in the nature of fantastic tales and fantasy/horror (Jonathan Carroll is one)than what is usually given the name fantasy. |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 18:38:34
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I very much enjoy writing first-person, but when I first started writing FR fiction, I was advised that third-person was the norm, and I didn't see any compelling reason to try and be different in this regard.
First-person is a boon to characterization. At least the narrator's characterization, and he's generally the protagonist. His personality infuses every word of the story.
On the other hand, being able to jump from one viewpoint to another makes life a lot easier when you're trying to tell a big, complicated story. Especially if it's a story where no one character is present at every important moment. |
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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe
Canada
434 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 19:01:40
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So first person narrative is fairly rare in Fantasy, and more difficult to write. But why? What makes some first person narratives succeed and others fail? The flatness of other characters is one characteristic of failure that has been mentioned, but what makes them flat characters?
I was thinking that in film and theater, unless there is a voice over or monologues, we have little or no access to a character's thoughts. We get to know a character purely on the basis of her actions and her words, and the words of other characters about them. Even so, some of these characters are complex and compelling. Why is that? |
Afet bint Tuzaní
"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 19:46:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Karzak
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Drizzt novels kinda have the occasional first person take.
Yes, and a perfect example of what not to do.
I see no problem with the inclusion of journal entries in a story... |
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Karzak
Learned Scribe
196 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 20:25:14
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No, it's more the fact that those journal entries are embarrassingly bad. Emo-teenager bad.
quote:
Originally posted by Afetbinttuzani
I was thinking that in film and theater, unless there is a voice over or monologues, we have little or no access to a character's thoughts. We get to know a character purely on the basis of her actions and her words, and the words of other characters about them. Even so, some of these characters are complex and compelling. Why is that?
Like, apart from the fact that film and theater are visual, and you can see their body language and facial expressions, hear their voices, and all the rest? No, I can't imagine why. |
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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe
Canada
434 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 20:41:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Karzak
Like, apart from the fact that film and theater are visual, and you can see their body language and facial expressions, hear their voices, and all the rest? No, I can't imagine why.
This doesn´t explain anything about why compelling characters are compelling. I have seen countless films with flat, boring characters who´s every painfully uninteresting action and expression was plain to see and hear. In fiction, a narrator, first or third person, could describe a character´s every twitch in minute detail, but that character could still be an uninteresting cardboard cut out. |
Afet bint Tuzaní
"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham |
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Karzak
Learned Scribe
196 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 20:44:43
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| Are you asking, in general, what makes a character flat and what makes a character compelling? Because that's such a huge, generic question that it's impossible to answer (not to mention that it's extremely subjective) - and the answer has absolutely nothing to do with whether the narrative is first-, second-, or third-person. |
Edited by - Karzak on 02 Apr 2008 20:46:48 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 20:59:42
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First person isn't rare in fantasy particularly (Borges, Holdstock and Lovecraft are three more), it's rare in modern commercial novels, especially long ones with a wide scope, naturally enough. Modern commercial fiction overwhelmingly relies on 'third person limited', a compromise between the reach of 'third person omniscient' and the intimacy of first. It's powerful but must be recognized as a profoundly artificial literary conceit and I think a much overused one; being able to describe to the reader the character's thoughts too often leads to easily grasped but glib and less-than-human characterizations.
Afetbinttuzani, it's because showing in detail what characters say and do (Andrew Vachss: 'Behaviour is truth') and siting them in a symbolically, emotionally alive world rather than placing meaning and value mainly in a single character's supposed (because it can't be shown directly) internality is a more powerful storytelling method. |
Edited by - Faraer on 02 Apr 2008 21:01:22 |
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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe
Canada
434 Posts |
Posted - 02 Apr 2008 : 22:24:38
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Well, I think that is the best response yet to my original query. Karzak, you were right to point out that I was beginning to ask a very general question, "what makes a character compelling?". And you were right to note that this goes well beyond the scope of my original question and the scope of this forum. 
Afet |
Afet bint Tuzaní
"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2008 : 00:27:45
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As long as we use some Realms examples it's perfectly on topic; if fantasy worlds were hermetically sealed units without meaningful connection to us and the wider universe they wouldn't hold or be worth our attention.
First person is most suited to a simplistic narrative, in which the subject focuses on a particular thread through the chaos of life, or a cryptic one full of observations not fully understood by character or reader, or a very internal, subjective one. Simplistic doesn't do justice to the Realms' complexity, though many don't care (objecting to the number of characters in Ed Greenwood's books however much he pares them down from the DMed setting). Cryptic isn't commercial, perhaps especially in the West. Subjective isn't the action-adventure fantasy Wizards wants to publish (how much do those who object to the Drizzt journal entries dislike the execution versus the principle?), and brings up the question of modern and earlier senses of self.
Of course, not all first-person writing is highly subjective. There's the Poe-style 'facts in the case' story, which puts me in mind of a passioned utterance by one of Anne Rice's characters, 'I do not know the meaning of the story!'
I wonder if Ed discussed doing the Elminster novels in first person. They're more suited to it than most, yet five books is a long time to listen to one person's strong voice. And I want to read about groups, such as adventuring companies, not more lone heroes.
Of course, the big viewpoint categories are broad and unsubtle. One author may make occasional asides about how a character feels, another drift in and out of near-stream of consciousness, others impart that kind of emotion in quite different ways.
Other Realms authors, what are your thoughts? |
Edited by - Faraer on 03 Apr 2008 00:31:29 |
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ywhtptgtfo
Seeker
89 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2008 : 00:38:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Afetbinttuzani
Well met, all.
Are there any FR novels with first person person narrators? Everything I've read so far, which isn't much, has had the usual anonymous, all seeing third person narrator who describes the action and jumps from head to head, giving us the thoughts of the various main characters. Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever read a Fantasy novel with a first person narrator. What would the benefits and limitations of a first person narrative be? I would be curious to have authors weigh in on this one.
Cheers,
Afet
Mod Edit: Found this scroll floating in the ether.
Not sure if anyone already mentioned this, but Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad (by Troy Denning) is done mostly in first person perspective under Malik's skewed opinion. |
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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe
Canada
434 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2008 : 00:38:40
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Given Faraer´s appraisal, can anyone give examples of FR novels in which the authors abused narrative omniscience to produce simplistic characterizations. Conversely can people give examples FR novels in which the authors took the "limited" in "third person limited" seriously, showing restraint and letting characters "reveal themselves" through their actions and words.
Unfortunately, there are too many FR novels for me to realistically catch up and read them all, and I imagine they are not all of the same quality. I´m trying to assemble a kind of short list of must reads.
Come to think of it is there a place where the novels have been given comparative ratings by readers?
Afet |
Afet bint Tuzaní
"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham |
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Karzak
Learned Scribe
196 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2008 : 01:07:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Subjective isn't the action-adventure fantasy Wizards wants to publish (how much do those who object to the Drizzt journal entries dislike the execution versus the principle?), and brings up the question of modern and earlier senses of self.
Are you seriously suggesting that most people object to those journal entries simply because they are introspective and first-person, as opposed to objecting to them because they are unmitigated drivel? Pretty much anybody I've seen singling out those entries as something to dislike does so because it's awful writing. Most Drizzt fanboys will swallow the books whole, entries and combat scenes, and to them Drizzt's musings represent deep philosophy and complex thought.
quote:
Originally posted by Afetbinttuzani
Given Faraer´s appraisal, can anyone give examples of FR novels in which the authors abused narrative omniscience to produce simplistic characterizations.
Define simplistic. Do you mean one-dimensional? Because if so, the number is endless - 90% of everything is crap, after all. Pretty much everything by Salvatore, the Last Mythal trilogy (look up Rinona's posts on that subject; she's articulated why the characterization in those books is flat in a much more entertaining, more intelligent fashion than I can hope to), Threat from the Sea trilogy, among others. There's another I would mention, but fans of the author in question tend to react with "NO U" responses and try to reason away criticism of the author's writing as "you aren't intelligent enough to appreciate this fine, complex, multi-layered LITERARY LITERATURE" and I'm not in the mood to deal with those screechy, batcrap insane sycophants. |
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Afetbinttuzani
Senior Scribe
Canada
434 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2008 : 01:11:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
First person is most suited to a simplistic narrative, in which the subject focuses on a particular thread through the chaos of life, or a cryptic one full of observations not fully understood by character or reader, or a very internal, subjective one.
First person narrative is subjective, yes, and perhaps not suited to wide ranging stories of FR novels, with their multiple characters spread over a far flung geography, often unknown to one another, but I wouldn´t go so far as to call it simplistic. I don´t think Borges´s or Cortázar´s first person narratives could be accused of being simplistic. |
Afet bint Tuzaní
"As the good Archmage often admonishes me, I ought not to let my mind wander, as it's too small to go off by itself."
- Danilo Thann in Elfsong by Elaine Cunningham |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2008 : 02:13:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Karzak
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
how much do those who object to the Drizzt journal entries dislike the execution versus the principle?
Are you seriously suggesting that most people object to those journal entries simply because they are introspective and first-person, as opposed to objecting to them because they are unmitigated drivel?
You do understand what a question is don't you?
Faraer was asking if you disliked the execution or if you disliked the principle. Clearly you hate the execution, but what about the principle? |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2008 : 02:28:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Karzak
Are you seriously suggesting that most people object to those journal entries simply because they are introspective and first-person, as opposed to objecting to them because they are unmitigated drivel?
I think it's possible that some of them object for the former reason.quote:
Originally posted by Afetbinttuzani
. . . I wouldn´t go so far as to call it simplistic. I don´t think Borges´s or Cortázar´s first person narratives could be accused of being simplistic.
What I wrote is that one kind of first-person writing is simplistic, meaning plotwise, avoiding the need for the narrator to allude confusingly and out-of-sequence to the parts of a more complex plot she doesn't understand. |
Edited by - Faraer on 03 Apr 2008 02:38:18 |
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Arkhaedun
Senior Scribe
869 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2008 : 02:30:41
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Ratchet back the level of vitriol or this scroll is getting closed fast. No one expects everyone to be a fan of every novel, but we all must be respectful of the other scribes here at the keep and the authors in general, and the level of hyperbole used to describe some authors' works is definitely elevating the criticism to the level of personal attack.
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Karzak
Learned Scribe
196 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2008 : 02:42:30
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
quote:
Originally posted by Karzak
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
how much do those who object to the Drizzt journal entries dislike the execution versus the principle?
Are you seriously suggesting that most people object to those journal entries simply because they are introspective and first-person, as opposed to objecting to them because they are unmitigated drivel?
You do understand what a question is don't you?
Faraer was asking if you disliked the execution or if you disliked the principle. Clearly you hate the execution, but what about the principle?
No? As Faraer's next post points out, it's obvious that he was making a generalizing statement regarding a group of people, as suggested by the word "those." You do understand what the word "those" means, don't you? |
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Arkhaedun
Senior Scribe
869 Posts |
Posted - 03 Apr 2008 : 02:45:01
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| That's it. This is getting closed until Alaundo can reveiw it. Please take some time to think about what a positive discourse with one another should entail, and feel free to review the Code of Conduct before we see something like this crop up again. |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
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Mark S.
Forgotten Realms Author
60 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2008 : 17:10:13
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I don't really care for first-person narrative, either as a reader or a writer. When I read, I want to "enter in" to the story and feel like I'm a part of it. First-person destroys that for me, because I feel like I'm sitting there listening to someone tell me a story. It destroys the experience for me. But hey, to each his own.
This subject actually came up among some well-known mystery authors. You can read the whole thing here:
http://www.billingsgazette.com/newdex.php?display=rednews/2005/09/25/build/state/43-montana-festival.inc
I particularly liked this bit:
quote:
Box likes the third person.
"The reader always knows more than Joe Pickett," he said.
No offense, he said to his fellow writers, but the first person distracts him.
"I always think, 'If this guy's such a good writer, why is he a detective?' " he said. "I can't get past that."
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First person narrators?
