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Bane of the Harpers
Seeker
Canada
53 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 04:42:52
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Can someone here give me suggestions about how a group of nobles from Waterdeep could slowly take over power in the City of Splendors and replace the Lords?
I thought about leading the people to believe that the Lords are abusing of their powers, that in reality its nothing more than a dictatorship...They could also create unrest, bringing classes or races against one another...
Any ideas are welcome!
Thanks
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Edited by - Bane of the Harpers on 27 Mar 2008 04:56:24
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Na-Gang
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
348 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 09:13:39
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I doubt very much that a group of Nobles could manage that on their own. They'd need help.
I'd suggest The Unseen, since they've already managed to place one of their number amongst the Lords of Waterdeep. However, they'd probably be willing to help put these upstart Nobles in positions of power simply to replace them with their own members.
Most folk would be supportive of the Lords, and it would take some very serious evidence of abuses of power before the citizenry would support a 'coup.' Waterdeep is such a cosmopolitan city of disparate types, races, classes and every other kind of divide you can imagine that I doubt the common man/elf/giant/lizard-man/whatever would be amenable to large-scale civil unrest on the grounds of bigotry or some kind of discrimination or 'ism.'
The only ways I can see to topple the current Lords would be the subtle method of replacing them with doppelgangers over time, careful assassinations followed by legitimate election to the Lords, or full-scale assault. Most of which would fail. Any and all of the Lords can call on massive amounts of personal magic as well as allies near and far, powerful and many. |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 14:00:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Na-Gang
I doubt very much that a group of Nobles could manage that on their own. They'd need help.
Unless they went about it in a completely political manner.
First, they'd need to create some type of civil problem. Racism, famine, disease, something to create fear in the population.
Then, they'd have to create the impression that the Lords are either powerless to do anything about it or that the Lords are behind, and profiting from, the problem.
Then it'd be rather easy to say "Look, these Lords aren't concerned with the people, they aren't concerned with justice, they've never been elected, they have no accountability. If I were in charge you'd know exactly what you're getting and you know who I am!"
You'd probably have to deal with Piergeiron in some manner, discrediting him would probably be difficult and showing him to be incompetent would also be difficult but I wouldn't put it outside a nobles reach (or, rather, a group of nobles).
It would certainly be difficult, but I see no real reason that the nobles would HAVE to get help from another "power group". They could use independent, semi-disposable agents to produce the problems and then move in to solve the problems.
If you really want to get good ideas for political intrigue give The Price a read. It's a great source for thinking about rulers intrigues. |
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Na-Gang
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
348 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 15:48:29
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| The thing is, the Lords being who they are, with the eyes and the ears they have working for them, they would probably get wind of any group of upstart Nobles long before they could put their plan into fruition. |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 16:35:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Na-Gang
The thing is, the Lords being who they are, with the eyes and the ears they have working for them, they would probably get wind of any group of upstart Nobles long before they could put their plan into fruition.
For every eye and ear the Lords have the nobles have at least one as well.
These nobles have been an economic force in the City for a long, long time and their influence runs deep.
Their plans would, of course, have to be VERY subtle but the Lords can't keep track of everyone, nor would the nobles put up with it.
Or, at least, that's how I see it. I, personally, don't think the Lords would stand a chance if the nobility revolted en mass. The Lords rule, in part, because the nobles don't want to deal with the annoyances of ruling.
Further, the nobles likely have agents in most of the Cities organizations (some of these are probably even double, or triple agents). The Lords are powerful, and relatively secure, but that doesn't mean that the nobility couldn't take them down (in the right circumstances, with a well thought out plan and the ability to adapt that plan when things went wrong. They'd also want multiple layers of deniability and they'd want to appear as the saviors to the general populous.) |
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Na-Gang
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
348 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 18:52:51
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
For every eye and ear the Lords have the nobles have at least one as well.
I would disagree. In my opinion a whole Noble family might have between them as many eyes and ears as a single Lord. The Lords operate both as a group and individually to keep Waterdeep secure and have to maintain webs of intrigue and surveillance that would dumbfound most Nobles.
quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
These nobles have been an economic force in the City for a long, long time and their influence runs deep.
Their plans would, of course, have to be VERY subtle but the Lords can't keep track of everyone, nor would the nobles put up with it.
Or, at least, that's how I see it. I, personally, don't think the Lords would stand a chance if the nobility revolted en mass. The Lords rule, in part, because the nobles don't want to deal with the annoyances of ruling.
That's the thing though. The nobles wouldn't revolt en masse. I would find it hard to believe if more nobles supported revolt than those that would actively support the Lords. Like you say the Nobles have been an economic force in the city for a long time. Why shake things up when they've got things so good already? They might actually lose status or wealth or land or whatever if they go along with this plot, even if they were unscrupulous enough to consider it.
quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
Further, the nobles likely have agents in most of the Cities organizations (some of these are probably even double, or triple agents). The Lords are powerful, and relatively secure, but that doesn't mean that the nobility couldn't take them down (in the right circumstances, with a well thought out plan and the ability to adapt that plan when things went wrong. They'd also want multiple layers of deniability and they'd want to appear as the saviors to the general populous.)
Again, I think the populace is largely content, even though they don't really know who the majority of the Lords actually are. If they are happy to put their lives in the hands of people they do not know or could not identify without their helms, that suggests to me a very high level of trust.
I agree that it wouldn't be impossible for a coalition of powerful Noble Houses to achieve a 'coup' it would be incredibly improbable and what is going to happen once these Nobles are in power? Who decides who's in charge? This new Noble-ruled Waterdeep would descend into open combat on the streets between families of disagreeable Nobles, and then the people would be clamouring for a return to the security they had before.
I just don't see it... |
Edited by - Na-Gang on 27 Mar 2008 18:55:26 |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 20:08:21
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I wasn't trying to say it was easy, just that it's VERY possible (as in, could be pulled off without selling your soul to devils/unseen/demons/aberrations/etc)
As a plot hook, you'd have to build a lot of backstory for it (well, at least have a rough outline, to feed the PCs hints from the past, etc) and you'd have to have a group dedicated to taking over Waterdeep. You'd have to create a sense of unrest in Waterdeep, perhaps economic factors (driven, in a very subtle matter, by the nobles) cause a lack of work, food and goods in Waterdeep, perhaps only cutting into some merchants profits. Something to cause some unrest, perhaps it could be pinned on "undesired races" or something like that.
Basically, I agree with you're general take of the situation in Waterdeep, but that doesn't have to be the case for his game. It's pretty easy to work out a story that undermines faith in the Lords ability to run Waterdeep, you do have to account for a lot but you can do that.
Further, these noble houses could also be working with groups like the Shadow Thieves or some of the criminal elements. I don't really think they'd absolutely need such help, but there are plenty of people (and nonpeople) who'd like to see the Lords topple. |
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Na-Gang
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
348 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 21:11:46
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
Basically, I agree with you're general take of the situation in Waterdeep, but that doesn't have to be the case for his game. It's pretty easy to work out a story that undermines faith in the Lords ability to run Waterdeep, you do have to account for a lot but you can do that.
Oh I agree absolutely. My realms is different from your realms is different from anyone else's realms, but I was going by what Canon sources seem to say. I've diverged immensely from Canon in my realms previously.
Anyway, it's good to get two sides to an opinion. If everyone agreed on everything we'd be Modrons.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6680 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 22:33:46
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Read the "City of Splendors" novel by Ed and Elaine which will show you how to rouse popular discontent against the Lords/nobles - just about anyone.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 01:22:53
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In the "home" Realms campaign, the vast majority of the Lords ARE nobles. Although only small groups of Waterdhavian nobles ever seem to be able to agree on ANYTHING (!), as far as working together, in the "home" Realms most of the nobles we Knights met seemed to be of the opinion that the Lords were "nobles plus a few practical, sensible commoners," and therefore, by far the most likely way in which any group of nobles would try to seize power in Waterdeep would NOT be by defying or bad-mouthing the Lords, but by trying to catch individual Lords alone, murder them, and replace them (with one of their own). In other words, become the Lords.
Far less messy, risky (once you've roused the populace, who's to say they'll want to take direction from YOU?), and wasteful of the ongoing prosperity of the city (if I wanted to take over a mansion full of wealth, I wouldn't want to set fire to it in the process).
Interestingly, we Knights "lived through" at least two such behind-the-masks power struggles . . .
love to all,
THO |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 15:28:22
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
In the "home" Realms campaign, the vast majority of the Lords ARE nobles. Although only small groups of Waterdhavian nobles ever seem to be able to agree on ANYTHING (!), as far as working together, in the "home" Realms most of the nobles we Knights met seemed to be of the opinion that the Lords were "nobles plus a few practical, sensible commoners," and therefore, by far the most likely way in which any group of nobles would try to seize power in Waterdeep would NOT be by defying or bad-mouthing the Lords, but by trying to catch individual Lords alone, murder them, and replace them (with one of their own). In other words, become the Lords.
Far less messy, risky (once you've roused the populace, who's to say they'll want to take direction from YOU?), and wasteful of the ongoing prosperity of the city (if I wanted to take over a mansion full of wealth, I wouldn't want to set fire to it in the process).
Interestingly, we Knights "lived through" at least two such behind-the-masks power struggles . . .
love to all,
THO
Thanks THO, it's always nice to hear what's happened with your games (and usually quite fantastic to picture your more. .. provocative comments  )
I was working on a few assumptions in my reasoning that lead towards my ideas of the undermining of the Lords, rather than the replacement of the Lords.
1) The Lords are personally more powerful than the Nobles involved, or, at least, the Nobles have this view.
2) The Nobles don't know who the Lords are and would be afraid that even subtle inquiries would lead back to them, alerting them to the Nobles plot.
3) The Nobles wouldn't want to be beholden to any particularly powerful being that may be more powerful than any particular Lord.
It would certainly be easier to hold power by replacing some Lords with your own agents but . . . well . . . that seems the standard MO in trying to overthrow the leadership of Waterdeep and I wanted to run with a different strategy. I also think that it'd help that the Lords identities aren't known (excepting the Paladinson) and could be used as a lever once some civil unrest gained some traction.
Plus, chaos is always a fun adventure hook. It could start out as the PCs trying to aid in getting food shipments into Waterdeep and doing the standard "mercenary guard" deal and uncovering some of the agents ties (like where the particular group attacking the shipment lairs, then attacking the lair and uncovering clues that lead to another group and then "climbing the ladder" in order to finally uncover the general plot. Though I would throw more wrenches in the mix but that'd be the general idea.)
But, again, thanks for stopping in and throwing some ideas in the mix. I typically love reading about the "home game"  |
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How to dethrone the Lords of Waterdeep
