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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
 Posted - 19 Mar 2008 : 05:24:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Aravine
You know, I'm kind of surprised no one has jumped to defend Helm the Everwatchful. Does everyone think he had it coming?
Alright, alright.
I'll bite.
Why did he have it coming?
I'll add a challenge.
Why did he have it coming outside of idiotic plot devices he suffered from? 
I'd appreciate an answer for both, because I'm guessing they'll be different.  |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2008 : 10:32:33
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| Going by Undead ... and assuming that the info will not be changed, we still have Kossuth, Mask, Umberlee, "Cyric", and Bane, plus a few other priests running about. That's shortly after the Spellplague struck though and we have, of course, no schedule about the banishment of Cyric and the repercussions of those. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2008 : 10:46:51
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| Helm did have it coming after the Maztica debacle. |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2008 : 13:54:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Helm did have it coming after the Maztica debacle.
Which was one of the cheap plot devices ShadeOfDis mentioned. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2008 : 14:15:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Helm did have it coming after the Maztica debacle.
Which was one of the cheap plot devices ShadeOfDis mentioned.
Yep.
Though it certainly answered the first stage of the question, I understand not having a good answer for the second part. (outside of personal opinion, which is a-ok *g*)
However, about the whole Maztican deal, I'd be totally fine with that plot if Gods weren't show as so aware of their followers actions. If Helm hadn't been aware of the actions of his clergy in Maztica then it wouldn't be so difficult to accept. It could have been a case of "Well, the guys always been a strong follower so I'll continue to grant him powers." or something along those lines (or working out a deal with a Maztican power to allow him to empower his followers).
::shrugs::
Regardless of the potential I can see in that plot, it certainly is one of the "stupid plots forced upon Helm".  |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2008 : 16:58:27
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
quote:
Originally posted by Aravine
You know, I'm kind of surprised no one has jumped to defend Helm the Everwatchful. Does everyone think he had it coming?
Alright, alright.
I'll bite.
Why did he have it coming?
I'll add a challenge.
Why did he have it coming outside of idiotic plot devices he suffered from?
I'd appreciate an answer for both, because I'm guessing they'll be different.
well, if the Tot is Idiotic, ummm...drawing a blank. that's the thing I was referring to. |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2008 : 17:24:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Aravine
well, if the Tot is Idiotic, ummm...drawing a blank. that's the thing I was referring to.
Well, what'd Helm do during the ToT that was out of character? While I'm not a big fan of the ToT I think that they did a good job with Helm in that story line. I don't see why his actions during the ToT would be viewed in any sort of negative light.
Care to expand on why you think his actions during the ToT were deserving of death?
I'm not trying to be standoffish, I'm just curious. (just in case this is coming across as harsh ) |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2008 : 21:10:01
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
quote:
Originally posted by Aravine
well, if the Tot is Idiotic, ummm...drawing a blank. that's the thing I was referring to.
Well, what'd Helm do during the ToT that was out of character? While I'm not a big fan of the ToT I think that they did a good job with Helm in that story line. I don't see why his actions during the ToT would be viewed in any sort of negative light.
Care to expand on why you think his actions during the ToT were deserving of death?
in the FRCS, it says something like "since it was helm that barred the way to the deities domain's most of what occured was laid at his feet."
not out of character, exactly, but... let's just say if something that enormous was blamed on a mortal, they would most likely be exucuted
I'm not trying to be standoffish, I'm just curious. (just in case this is coming across as harsh )
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The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2008 : 21:19:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Aravine
in the FRCS, it says something like "since it was helm that barred the way to the deities domain's most of what occured was laid at his feet."
not out of character, exactly, but... let's just say if something that enormous was blamed on a mortal, they would most likely be exucuted
Well, the Gods certainly know better, Helm was just security, if there was someone to be blamed it'd be AO.
Mortals, now they do blame Helm, though I've often wondered just how mortals are supposed to know that Helm KO'd Mystra to create the Helmlands. . . but. . . well. . . that's just me I guess.
I see what you're saying but I don't really agree with how the FRCS presents that information, it just smacks of wrong to me. If you read the avatar series, or just that part in particular, you'll see that while there were probably gods that were pissed that Helm played gatekeeper there weren't any who wanted him to even be punished for that.
Of course I think Helm got the metashaft. I don't think the Gods would blame him, nor do I think it'd be widely known that he was the gatekeeper during the ToT.
Dang, I just really, REALLY hope they lay off writing about the Gods actions and their intentions. Have a blast with Exarchs, have a blast with the Churchs and the heads of the Churchs but please, please leave the Gods out of it. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2008 : 23:53:10
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
[Dang, I just really, REALLY hope they lay off writing about the Gods actions and their intentions.
I agree. Sometimes I'd rather not know about the thought processes of a god, nor do I usually enjoy seeing them become too humanized. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Ranak
Learned Scribe
USA
190 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2008 : 05:04:24
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
...
...
Anyhow, one of my biggest problems with deities in the Realms is that they are both nearly impossible to kill and frighteningly easy to kill.
I think this problem is settled in 4ed. In the first post spellplague novel I have read, a character actually summons and binds a greater god with a ritual. I won't give too much away, but that says a lot about how power levels have changed between editions. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2008 : 11:13:14
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| Did Clerics of Helm have full spell access during the ToT??? I forget! |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36971 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2008 : 11:31:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Did Clerics of Helm have full spell access during the ToT??? I forget!
I can't find anything that says they did or didn't... I'd assume they didn't, because that kind of thing would have been a rather noteworthy exception. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2008 : 12:17:12
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Wow, that is a great catch though Alisttair. I don't know that it's ever been written.
Personally, I'd assume that Helm would be clever enough to know what a bright beacon that'd make his followers. Though that could have advantages too.
Good catch though. |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2008 : 12:21:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
[Dang, I just really, REALLY hope they lay off writing about the Gods actions and their intentions.
I agree. Sometimes I'd rather not know about the thought processes of a god, nor do I usually enjoy seeing them become too humanized.
I just don't believe that deities can be written about by humans without the portrayal being. . . well. . . stupid, IMO. In fact, I'd rather not see the thought process of beings over 10,000 years old. Even Elves are a stretch for me, I have to disregard any personal opinion on the effects of a several century long life and say "Well, it is a game and I should just enjoy playing the game."
There are two authors who's views on Elves I've actually liked (read: they were different from humans!). That's two out of. . . a lot.
There has been one or two scenes about Gods that I've enjoyed. The rest . . . not so much. |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2008 : 12:23:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Ranak
quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
...
...
Anyhow, one of my biggest problems with deities in the Realms is that they are both nearly impossible to kill and frighteningly easy to kill.
I think this problem is settled in 4ed. In the first post spellplague novel I have read, a character actually summons and binds a greater god with a ritual. I won't give too much away, but that says a lot about how power levels have changed between editions.
Really? A character binds a greater god?
I'll have to give it a read myself, but my first impression is "WTH??? That's frickin stupid!!! That's. . . that's . . . that's just frickin stupid!!!!!" |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2008 : 13:34:58
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
I just don't believe that deities can be written about by humans without the portrayal being. . . well. . . stupid, IMO.
Yes, that's exactly the problem. Much of the time (not all the time, but much of the time) when deities are actual characters, they come off as incompetent. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2008 : 14:09:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
[Dang, I just really, REALLY hope they lay off writing about the Gods actions and their intentions.
I agree. Sometimes I'd rather not know about the thought processes of a god, nor do I usually enjoy seeing them become too humanized.
the thing is, many of them were mortals before they ascended to godhood. |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2008 : 14:39:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Aravine
the thing is, many of them were mortals before they ascended to godhood.
That doesn't really matter at all though. They've gone from being a mortal to being a god. A god is a being of plurality and has VAST resources and is VASTLY superior to mortals. While at one time Azuth was just a mage, he's become FAR more than any mortal mage. He's been around for thousands of years (I'm pretty sure it's thousands) and he's a frickin god.
Like I said, I have enough trouble believing the writing done for elven characters, much less dragons and lichs and the like. Gods I just can't do, I find it impossible to suspend that much disbelief.
And I'm a-ok with non-perfect gods. I'm even a-ok with relatively stupid gods.
Heh, I'm startin to feel a little like Mace here, so I'll stop. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2008 : 14:44:55
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I could have swore, but I don't have the time to check right now, that there was a passage about Helm and his clergy in the Time of Troubles modules. I vaguely, again but I didn't check, recall passages stating that his clergy were not effected like the other clergy were.
But until I can look at the modules or sourcebook, I could be wrong. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2008 : 17:08:55
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| Regarding Helm and the ToT, AFAIK he kept his powers, but it was not about deities keeping their powers which caused the mayhem. it was that magic and the Weave itself was unpredictable. Hence, every spell cast by anyone was liable to failure. Which is something that has not yet been clarified with regards to the Spellplague, of course. The effect is essentially the same and, lest I forget, it makes no sense that the wizards et al did not get the same changes and abilities which they get now, of course. I mean, it took Szass Tam and his lot about a couple of days to work out how it goes post-Mystra ... |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2008 : 19:03:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
I could have swore, but I don't have the time to check right now, that there was a passage about Helm and his clergy in the Time of Troubles modules. I vaguely, again but I didn't check, recall passages stating that his clergy were not effected like the other clergy were.
That does make perfect sense - he was still in the Outer Planes and had all of his divine power, so why wouldn't he have been granting spells to his followers? 
Unless Ao ordered him not to...
That alone could have lead to Helm's church becoming more 'Monotheistic' in its outlook, as was depicted in the Maztica books. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 20 Mar 2008 19:05:17 |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2008 : 19:26:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
That does make perfect sense - he was still in the Outer Planes and had all of his divine power, so why wouldn't he have been granting spells to his followers?
Unless Ao ordered him not to...
That alone could have lead to Helm's church becoming more 'Monotheistic' in its outlook, as was depicted in the Maztica books.
I agree that he should have had the ability to grant spells at that time but I wouldn't be shocked if he didn't, or if AO told him not to grant spells.
I didn't read the actual Maztican books, just the boxed set (unless that's what you are referring to), so I can't say much about the monotheistic stance his church took but I wouldn't be surprised if his clerics in Maztica went a little monotheistic due to the lack of other divine representation in Maztica. Of course I'd think that'd have promoted quite a bit of friction in the forces in Maztica, but that's not here or there. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2008 : 21:52:48
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| Aye, the passage I was thinking about was the one, now that I had some time to look at different books, which is in F&A, was where it says he kept his powers. I don't recall if there was more then that about his clergy. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 20 Mar 2008 21:53:08 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2008 : 23:06:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Aravine
the thing is, many of them were mortals before they ascended to godhood.
That doesn't mean they remain human-like after receiving godhood. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 22 Mar 2008 : 23:09:34
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
That does make perfect sense - he was still in the Outer Planes and had all of his divine power, so why wouldn't he have been granting spells to his followers?
Unless Ao ordered him not to...
That alone could have lead to Helm's church becoming more 'Monotheistic' in its outlook, as was depicted in the Maztica books.
I agree that he should have had the ability to grant spells at that time but I wouldn't be shocked if he didn't, or if AO told him not to grant spells.
I didn't read the actual Maztican books, just the boxed set (unless that's what you are referring to), so I can't say much about the monotheistic stance his church took but I wouldn't be surprised if his clerics in Maztica went a little monotheistic due to the lack of other divine representation in Maztica. Of course I'd think that'd have promoted quite a bit of friction in the forces in Maztica, but that's not here or there.
If Helm's church was portrayed as monotheistic in a bunch of novels, I would prefer to chalk that up to bad writing.
And considering how Helm and his followers are often made out as bad guys in the work of Douglas Niles, I do not trust that author as an authoritative, objective source on Helm's Church. That might sound mean, but that's how I think. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Ranak
Learned Scribe
USA
190 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 07:16:03
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I thought the portrayal of Helm as monotheistic by Douglas Niles was fantastic. I have often wondered why more cleric's didn't take a stricter, "my faith is the true faith" perspective. The churches compete for followers, it is not like the Greek pantheon, where you might switch god's just moving to the next city, etc. True there is a fuzzy area with groups, like the triad, etc.
In any case, I think it was doubly appropriate in the Douglas Niles books because it mirrors how missionaries worked in the real world. You don't cross an ocean to spread your religion, get there, and decide to accept the native gods. That's just silly.
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
If Helm's church was portrayed as monotheistic in a bunch of novels, I would prefer to chalk that up to bad writing.
And considering how Helm and his followers are often made out as bad guys in the work of Douglas Niles, I do not trust that author as an authoritative, objective source on Helm's Church. That might sound mean, but that's how I think.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 13:27:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Ranak
I have often wondered why more cleric's didn't take a stricter, "my faith is the true faith" perspective.
Because, as Ed Greenwood has said, almost everyone in the Realms is polytheistic and worships more than one god--even clerics. Everyone (even clerics) knows all the other gods exist and have power, even if they are not inclined to worship them. There are clerics who would take the view that you mention, but they would be considered fanatics. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 28 Mar 2008 13:28:02 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 13:29:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Ranak
In any case, I think it was doubly appropriate in the Douglas Niles books because it mirrors how missionaries worked in the real world. You don't cross an ocean to spread your religion, get there, and decide to accept the native gods. That's just silly.
That was never a part of my argument though.
I'm not a fan of Realmslore that is based so tightly on real world history. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 28 Mar 2008 13:34:34 |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 14:06:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Because, as Ed Greenwood has said, almost everyone in the Realms is polytheistic and worships more than one god--even clerics. Everyone (even clerics) knows all the other gods exist and have power, even if they are not inclined to worship them. There are clerics who would take the view that you mention, but they would be considered fanatics.
Yep, that's why Cyric's "I'm the one and all" is considered insane.
Further, for most of the mortals in Faerun, the Gods have their specific places. You're not going to pray to Helm to aid your crops growth (might pray to him to aid in watching your flock of sheep though) nor are they going to pray to Chauntea to gain aid in a merchantile endeavor.
I certainly understand that this is a difficult way to think but it's the way the Realms work.
In fact, I really don't like the idea of a single Gods church, I don't really have the time but hopefully, at some point, I'll put together a different church structure because. . . I just don't agree with a single temple for a single god in a polytheistic culture (of course there would be exceptions, but they'd be the exceptions, not the rule) |
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Divine Body Count
