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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
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Ranak
Learned Scribe
USA
190 Posts |
 Posted - 06 Mar 2008 : 02:36:21
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The assault on Xingax felt almost out of place, serving only the purpose of revenge for Tammith and Bareris. I can see its strategic value in the course of the war, but like the fight with the living boneyard, it just felt like an aside, rather than part of the real story.
I am really pleased with the progression of their story, and touched a bit by their desperate attempt to feel again after the horrors and change they have been through. Overall the second half of the book was excellent, I find Thayan intrigue very interesting, and it was nice to give Nevron some real color this time around.
I am also dubious of Tam being able to summon and contain Bane, ritual magic or not. I will presume it was only a small aspect of Bane that he was able to momentarily bind.
** spoilers/questions **
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I am really a little worried that Thay really will become a nation of undead. It fits with 4ed and its wild landscapes, etc. With the clerics of Kossuth driven out, and the other Zulkirs driven to Escalaunt, it is pretty ominous. Tam gives the impression that the living in Thay now serve only to nourish the undead monsters he commands.
General Realmslore question - at the end of the book, Tam is left holding a tome "unearthed by Fastrin the Delver when Netheril was young." Is this one of the Netherscrolls? |
Edited by - Ranak on 06 Mar 2008 02:37:42 |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2008 : 03:12:37
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Glad you enjoyed it, Ranak.
Fastrin;s book is not one of the Netherscrolls. In case you missed this detail, Fastrin was a contemporary of Mirror and a member of the same lost civilization based in the Sunrise Mountains. |
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Ranak
Learned Scribe
USA
190 Posts |
Posted - 06 Mar 2008 : 05:30:04
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Well that is really interesting!
I did not comment on Mirror, but I was really surprised at how much he added to the story. His presence/absence seemed was almost like a literal representation of conscience and humanity. I was glad to see him get some time in Undead.
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
Glad you enjoyed it, Ranak.
Fastrin;s book is not one of the Netherscrolls. In case you missed this detail, Fastrin was a contemporary of Mirror and a member of the same lost civilization based in the Sunrise Mountains.
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Xoriat
Acolyte
4 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2008 : 12:24:37
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***MAJOR SPOILERS***
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Unclean and Undead have so far been my favorite books of the Realms. I generally enjoy any story concerning wizards, and especially evil wizards, so these books have been like a dream come true. Not many books out there really center on characters who work for the "bad guys". There are so many of the more evil-ish aspects of FR told in the story that I so wish more novels could be told about them (monks of the Long Death, Red Wizards, necromancers, vanpires, etc...). With all due respect to Mr. Salvatore, I can only get so much goody-goody heroes saving the day!
I have to say that the interchange between Bane and Tam has so far been my favorite part of the book! I thought to myself as I read the ritual summoning "What is Tam doing...??" Then Bane appeared and I thought "OMG! BANE!" Cool stuff.
If I were to voice one disappointment, its that Xingax died all too quickly. Was he some kind of aborted fetus from a giant? Or human? More about his origins would have been fun to know. By far he was the most grotesque character I've read.
Lastly, how does Mystra's death affect the Realms now? This isn't taking place during the Time of Troubles, is it? Or is she dying a second time? |
Edited by - Xoriat on 18 Mar 2008 12:27:18 |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2008 : 12:32:10
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Xoriat: Glad you enjoyed the book.
Xingax is an atropal scion.
Undead isn't set during the Time of Troubles. It's set in 1485, the year of the Spellplague, when, in fact, Mystra does croak once again. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2008 : 13:49:42
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Speaking of which ... am I right to assume that Spellplague and all sneaked up on you when much of the novel-script was already finished?
There are a few things - especially in transitional periods like these - which raise immediate questions, of course. Like ... near the end, you list a number of deities whos priests accompanied the fleet. Are we to assume that theyy made the "cut" or was that done before Spellplague happened upon Undead? Obviously, FR "fans" really want to know whether e.g. their deities are still about and the longer the wait, the more "desperate" it becomes. Hence, every line and every word comes under scrutiny. (Not that the designers cannot wipe the whole lot of them off the table in no-time.) |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2008 : 14:22:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Speaking of which ... am I right to assume that Spellplague and all sneaked up on you when much of the novel-script was already finished?
Nope. RLB has said before that the series was all planned out with the Spellplague in mind. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2008 : 15:06:46
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Zan & Rino: To make things as clear as I can (which may not be all that clear), the whole trilogy was planned in the knowledge that the Spellplague was on its way and was to play a part in the unfolding of the plot.
And I can honestly say that Undead uses and is consistent with every scrap of information that was given to me concerning the Spellplague when I wrote the book in the first half of last year.
But here's the caveat. Some of the details regarding the Spellplague had not been worked out at that time. To a degree, I had to guess and extrapolate. So it's not inconceivable that you will find a discrepancy or two between what's in the novel and what eventually appears in the sourcebook. I hope not, but if you do, that's why. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2008 : 19:41:13
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| That's a very clear answer--thank you. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 18 Mar 2008 : 23:49:36
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Good! Maybe just maybe ... could you include ... say Loviatar, Mask and some other, not so important deities in Unhallow   ?! (Then again, by that time, we may porbably know what befell to which deity ... more or less.) |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 18 Mar 2008 23:51:33 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 19 Mar 2008 : 13:57:54
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| Unholy. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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ywhtptgtfo
Seeker
89 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2008 : 17:49:13
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| RLB, is Yaphyll's death final? I get the impression that part of her got displaced into the future or something. |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 21 Mar 2008 : 20:07:08
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| Yaphyll's death is final as far as I'm concerned. Of course, this is a universe where resurrection happens, so I can't guarantee that some other novelist or game writer won't drag her out of the tomb at some point in the future. But it won't be me. |
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ywhtptgtfo
Seeker
89 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2008 : 01:08:46
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| There were some character developments in "The Simbul's Gift" for Lauzoril and his daughter. Will that be reference later in the trilogy? |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 23 Mar 2008 : 03:32:09
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Sorry, no. To be honest, this is a big, complicated story, I only have about 300,000 words to tell it in, and there are only so many subplots I can stuff in.
As you now know, there's a decade of largely unexplored time between Books 1 and 2. You can easily imagine leftover business from The Simbul's Gift resolving itself during that period in whatever way seems appropriate to you. |
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Xoriat
Acolyte
4 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2008 : 17:00:31
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Perhaps I should wait until I am actually finished reading the book, but this has been bugging me and I can't wait...but if Mirror was a former paladin, and he is regaining some memories of his past life, why would he aid Thayans? Or does his former edicts no longer compel him to remain good and not to aid evil beings, or even work with those who call evil beings their master?
Second, who is Mirror's god? |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 24 Mar 2008 : 17:26:36
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The way Mirror sees it, he's aiding the cause of good by siding with people who are simply Evil against Szass Tam, who is Really Evil. Szass is the one raising hosts of undead and willing to poison the land to secure his victory.
Also, the code of Mirror's paladin fellowship emphasizes standing by your brothers-in-arms. For Mirror, that's Bareris and Aoth, so if they're fighting the necromancers, then he'll come along for the ride. Rootless in this strange new world, it's not like he's got anything better to do.
Also, I draw a distinction between the rigidity of the D&D game rules and what I think is appropriate in a work of fiction. To my way of thinking, if the Realms were real, they'd be a much more complicated and varied place than a strict application of the rules would suggest, just like our world. The whole point of the game rules, after all, is to take the complicated, multifaceted nature of something like a sword fight and simplify it down to something you can represent by throwing dice. Which is great for when you're gaming. It's exactly what you need. But to my mind, there's no reason to import all those same simplifications into a novel. You're liable to come up with something that seems more believable and intelligent if you don't.
And all the above is why I think it's kosher for Mirror to fight in the Thayan civil war.
Mirror served a god associated with the sun. Whether that god was Lathander or another incarnation of the same deity (given that entity's cyclical nature) is something I left vague. |
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ywhtptgtfo
Seeker
89 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2008 : 02:18:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
Yaphyll's death is final as far as I'm concerned. Of course, this is a universe where resurrection happens, so I can't guarantee that some other novelist or game writer won't drag her out of the tomb at some point in the future. But it won't be me.
Sigh... Another instance of creativity assasssination by WotC. I am not sure if you're going to agree with me on this, but the "make-your-ending" type of thing is really insufficient when beautifully started plots are left unfinished. Anyway, this is not a complaint directed at you.
By the way, part of what irks me about "The Haunted Lands" trilogy is that you've portrayed the Zulkirs all too masterfully (especially the severe Nevron, impish Yaphyll, and scornful Lallara), but we kinda know in the end that they're all screwed because what they represent have no place in 4e. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2008 : 11:41:57
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After a lot (as in all) of the main female characters had an appointment with fate, will we see one or two more decent females making an appearance in Unholy? Someone like the Maskarran high priestess, for a change?* I was somewhat astonished to see all those priests of the City of the 1000 Temples turn tail before an "army of undead" too.
*Obviously, having the high priestess of one of the few surface temples (Bezantur) of Lolth making an appearance would surley take the biscuit ;-) |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 25 Mar 2008 11:46:53 |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2008 : 13:23:39
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I don't want to give away too much about Unholy. I have an aversion to providing spoilers. So I'm going to take a pass on answering your question, Zanan. Sorry.
Don't be too tough on all those priests. When the zulkirs decided to bail and take the army with them, the clerics didn't have much choice except to go, too. They couldn't have defended Bezantur by themselves. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 25 Mar 2008 : 23:47:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
I don't want to give away too much about Unholy. I have an aversion to providing spoilers. So I'm going to take a pass on answering your question, Zanan. Sorry.
Don't be too tough on all those priests. When the zulkirs decided to bail and take the army with them, the clerics didn't have much choice except to go, too. They couldn't have defended Bezantur by themselves.
Well, the better part of my questions were rhethorical in nature, as I full well know the "hesitancy" amongst authors to spoil their products . Of course, the reply is another incentive to try and create a Charm Author spell. 
As for the priests and Bezantur, I know that there are surely about two dozen points which haven't and couldn't be mentioned in the novels concerning the various churches there, their own agendas and what have you. So I have in principle no problem with them eventually turning tail. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 21:33:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
Xingax is an atropal scion.
Mind elaborating on that? I've never heard that term before. |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2008 : 22:42:32
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by Richard Lee Byers
Xingax is an atropal scion.
Mind elaborating on that? I've never heard that term before.
It's an undead aborted god fetus. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 02:04:31
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| Rin is correct. For more info, see p. 84 of Libris Mortis. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2008 : 06:12:19
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Just finished Undead. A good read, even if it did include the gods-awful Spellplague. From a lore perspective, all I needed was the first chapter or two, giving the recap of the past ten years up until the SP's enterence. I won't be picking up the third book, since I don't want to encourage WotC in its 4e travesty, but I enjoyed reading this one. Actually, the scene where Tam convinces Malark to defect was so great I nearly decided to change my mind, but the ending soured it on me. Oh no! Another Book of Doom! Sigh.
I really liked the way Tammith was written through the entire book, with her slow climb towards, well, redemption's too strong a word, but you know what I mean. I would have enjoyed seeing what she became later on, and you certainly dropped enough "can she be killed?" hints that it's possible she'd be back for Book 3 Not sure how believable it would be, but the ground's been laid.
I also agree with the above poster that I didn't like how Laurzoril was portrayed, and that Nevron was a bit heavy handed. Simbul's Gift was the only worthwhile book to come out the Noble's series, and I really enjoyed how Lauzoril was portrayed in it. Still, since he's, at best, a minor tertiary character in this series I can live with his depiction.
[looking VERY hard for a silver lining] The only good thing I can say about the 4e change-over is that it gave you enough time in-world to handle the civil war the way (IMO) it should be handled. A land with that much magic, that huge an armed presence, that many archmages should not fall quickly, even when the enemy is themselves. And if you had been writing the series three or four years ago, you'd probably have to shoehorn the whole thing into a year or two (and we'd probably have been inflicted with a "Year of Civil Wars" moniker). So at least you had a chance to really run Thay into the ground the way it should be.
Still, if I had a choice between the Realms continuing the way they should (with a forcedly-shortened civil war), or giving you the time to stretch it out with the spellplague, I'd choose the former in a heartbeat. Sorry, Richard. Nobody's that good a writer. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2008 : 15:04:23
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| Well, I'm glad you enjoyed Book 2. Obviously, I'd be gladder if you were planning on checking out Book 3, too, but oh well. I appreciate you taking an interest in my stuff for as long as you have. |
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AnthonyR
Acolyte
USA
1 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2008 : 15:26:09
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Being away from FR for some years both gaming and reading novels, I purchased a handful of FR novels to digest.
Both Unclean and Undead were great, now we just have to impatiently
wait until Unholy comes out. |
Anthony
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2008 : 16:56:58
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| Glad you liked them, Anthony. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2008 : 18:46:27
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Upon further consideration, I'm not sorry I bought the book. Aside from the spellplague and the stupid "points of light" landscape and other 4e stuff, I did enjoy reading the book. I enjoy your writing style, Richard, and if it weren't for 4e, would continue to pick up your books (I thought Dissolution was the best of the WotSQ, and it actually kept me reading the series longer than I might have as I kept hoping the other authors would live up to your start).
Which I guess just goes to show how badly WotC mishandled 4e, if they can drive someone like me away in the middle of an interesting series by an author I like. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Xoriat
Acolyte
4 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2008 : 16:54:26
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I just finished Undead. Excellent story so far. How I do love wizards, especially evil ones! However, I there were a few things I was confused about...
1. What exactly is the dream vestige? Is it something that can be found in a monster manual somewhere? The fact that Bareris could affect with his singing seemed kind of...rushed, or tacked on somehow. Which brings me to my next question...
2. What happened to Bararis? is he an undead? Zombie? Our only clue is he has black eyes and he wants to go back to Thay. One moment he was rowing into the vestige, and the next he was having a conversation with Aoth...??
3. I think Tsagoth will make a return as he didn't seem to die, only disappear. Also, I like how Tammith was handled, but I hated how a little swim in the sea managed to kill her when she was beheaded twice and still lived. Odd to me. The battle with Tsagoth should have been drawn out a little more to give Tammith's death some more meaning and "oomph".
4. The one thing I was wondering since Bane gave Szass Tam those powers...what exactly kind of powers did Bane give him? How did it give Szass Tam an edge in the war? Was the dream vestige a result of this power? Was kind of foggy on that one.
Great book, Mr. Byers! Would be a perfect 10 if those points could be clarified. Thanks. |
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Undead: Chapters 6 - 11 & Epilogue
