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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Jun 2003 : 09:18:27
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| I just found the timeline/essay I mentioned earlier. It's called "A History of the World, 1500 - Present." |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 13 Jun 2003 : 09:25:57
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That's great stuff, thanks Bookwyrm.
I think I can combine this with the Cesare Borgia-era alternate medieval storyline I have been thinking about since this scroll started. The discussion regarding the firearms in medieval fantasy has helped a great deal too.
Never let it be said, that Candlekeep is not a fountain of potential campaign ideas.
May all your learning be free and unfettered
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1287 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2003 : 18:09:02
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quote:
Originally posted by branmakmuffin
Mournblade:
What is it that keeps saltpetre, coal and sulphur (or whatever black powder happens to be made of) from being combined into black powder? DM fiat? A mysterous etheral essence that prevents these ingredients from combining with each other? Gods striking down any creature that stumbles on the recipe?
Actually Bran that is essentially correct. HOWEVER, I do allow Black powder, I just do not allow it to work in GUNS or arquebuses. WHy? Yes it is the DM influence you refer too. THat is the purpose of my Rating system, and it is FAR from perfect. Basically the tech rating of 3 which I arbitrarily set up, will not allow technology to advance beyond the Late middle ages (YES I know they had gunpowder then JEEZ!!!) It is not an effort of the gods (even GOND can not make guns in my campaign, he makes medieval tech wonders) to prevent it, or ethereal essence. If the Characters transported to modern day, which they DID in one campaign and found this wonderous device called the machine gun that can do MORE damage than a DEATH spell, they would be gravely disappointed when they returned to the realms. They would pull the trigger and nothing would happen. The bullets would not explode even if hit with a fireball, and they have essentially a very heavy CLUB. BUT if these characters took that machine to say EARTH 900 AD, instead of FAERUN, then ERIK the red would be in for a surprise when his Drakkar is reduced to swiss cheese. It would work, becasue I have set up that a history of OUR universe has the same tech rating and magic rating.
There are lots of contradictions though... such as (since I am really INTO pirates) places like Waterdeep and Amn have LARGE merchantmens, swoops, and Carracks. The reason is simply that sailing technology works. And I beleive that they would be able to advance to this level. I equate forgotten realms a bit with a modern technological world standard of life, becasue magic is JUST that good to get beyong the medieval nastiness of it. FOr example, I mimagine waterdeep as having a better sanitation system due to magic (I have NOT worked this out) than London of 1588. Also there is not quite as much suffering as in the middle ages due to DIVINE MAGIC. There is still some, but face it, if the BLACK PLAGUE struck up in the middle of waterdeep, you KNOW the lords would ORDER every priest to get on that and eradicate it. Unless the Disease is MAGICAL of course:)
Look this rating system is so full of holes that SPONGE BOB would be jealous. But the fact is it works for me. You can pick it apart and say, WHy do you not allow guns, but allow Carracks. Well why can Luke precicely launch a proton torpedo into the exhaust shaft of the death star which is alot like bombing womp rats back home, but not launch a FIREBALL. Becasue the magic in Star Wars is not a 10, it is just not strong enough.
Also as a side not e I do not allow steam tech dwarven gadgets either. They just make GREAT ITEMS within the tech limits.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 14 Jun 2003 : 19:13:16
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[Bookwrym steps through one of the holes in Mournblade’s system.]
Steam technology, or at least the concept thereof, has been around for thousands of years. The Greeks knew that heated water produces a pressure (they explained it as the lightest element, fire, combining with the second-heaviest, water, made it a kind of air -- not too shabby; that’s the closest you can get to water vapor under that system). The only problem was that they didn’t have the mechanical knowledge to harness it, since you need it in an indirect way. They dismissed it as an academic sort of finding, and it took a certain Scotsman to make it work. He wasn’t the first to dig it up again, he was just the first to make it work.
[Bookwyrm ducks to avoid being hid by a large mallet reading “DM’s Prerogative” that suddenly appears in Mournblade’s hand.]
Incidentally, in my Nine Elements story, since the (to steal your term for a moment) tech level is the same as the Real World, I had to work out a way to make sure that the existing technology stays at about that of the High Middle Ages. Or so. To do that, I extrapolated from a point in the history that I’d previously put in. The “Great War.”
It’s a magical war that raged for a whopping fifty-eight years (and I’m not talking an on-again-off-again war) that decimated the resources of Europe, and the surrounding areas. It’s because if that that many of the creatures we consider mythical are now wild. Magically altered, half-of-one, half-another creatures such as the manticore were bred for war, but now have escaped. The ones who could breed (the beastmasters had selected for that, of course -- easier to get more that way) now infest the lands of Europe, eastern Asia, and Africa north of the Sahara. (Some farther than that, but that’s where you’re most likely to find them.)
By the way, those creatures are called chimeras, and were patterned on the same myths we have. The true chimera was first, but imagine trying to control a creature with three heads. No general wants that. Oh, and they don’t look like sewn-together creatures like on heraldry. I have a bit of a problem with that . . . .
I’m starting to stray again. But not as far as might be apparent. See, because of these creatures, many (like the manticore) bred for destruction (some weren’t -- they made unicorns as better war mounts), and the terrible magics used, magic-users were made the scapegoats for the entire war. A bit stupid, since they needed magic to help heal things as well, but that’s what they did. Magic is outright illegal in many places. Others you have to have permission of the king. The Church hasn’t officially reversed its decision that magic wasn’t just for the priesthood (the counterpart of St. Augustine was the reason there was a Papal decree to that effect), but the general rule that the Church tries to promote now is that only priests are sufficiently armored spiritually to handle the temptations of higher magic.
What does that have to do with technology? Well, for one thing, there was a guy in what would be part of Austria in our world that invented the steam engine. It was for about the same reason that the steam engine was invented here -- vertical movement. But instead of a pump, he wanted to lift things up a cliff side.
His fellow citizens were certain that the chuffing and the smoke meant that he’d summoned a demon to power it. They formed a little mob, led by their parish priest, lynched him, and smashed the machine.
Moral of the story? Don’t be a revolutionary inventor unless you’re sure your neighbors are open-minded. Or at least the priest.
(For those of you concerned, the Church sent a member of one of their magic orders (haven’t gotten around to their histories yet) to investigate, found no traces of mana, and recommended that the parish priest be transferred. The holy mob-leader was ‘promoted’ to the Vatican, so they could make sure he didn’t cause any more trouble.)
There are only three places where people are open-minded as a general rule. Eire (Ireland, the only place untouched by the Great War to a certain extent; they felt it, but they were never directly attacked), Tyferra (besides Eire, the only place to encourage magic use; most of Europe doesn’t like the country), and Drasin (think a slower version of Nazi Germany, but not really our Germany). However, since Eire and Tyferra use a lot of magic, the demand for high technology isn’t much in evidence. That’s something they’re going to regret . . . .
[Bookwyrm rubs his hands gleefully as he contemplates the story.]
As a defense against accusations of off-topicness, the author would respectfully point out that this is evidence of his views on the subject of technological and magical mixes. Should you have any further objections, he'll get back to you once he's stopped talking about himself in the third person. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
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Edited by - Bookwyrm on 14 Jun 2003 19:14:28 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2003 : 10:05:34
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::The Sage quickly looks around, making sure there are no other people in this part of the library. He then casts a spell of his own creation that "cuts-and-pastes" details from one scroll to another. Once the spell is completed and the Sage's new parchment is covered with the details of the original scroll, he quietly replaces the original scroll back onto the shelf and then turns to exit the room and walk out into the hall::
It looks as if another few great ideas for my own medieval campaign dealing with firearms just received an extra boost. Thanks Mournblade  . I also borrowed some ideas from your post Bookwyrm, thanks  . They will have require some 'adjustments' however.
May all your learning be free and unfettered
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jun 2003 : 13:22:25
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Just as a special note - I have started a new scroll in the 'Realms Events' section to discuss an interesting perspective on the Church of Gond and Firearms, that has not been mentioned here yet.
The scroll is located here.
I would appreciate some thoughts on this topic as well.
May all your learning be free and unfettered
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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branmakmuffin
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jun 2003 : 16:35:05
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Mournblade:
I'm not going to try to "pick apart" your DMing style vis a vis firearms. I'm sure your game works just fine the way it is. |
Edited by - branmakmuffin on 17 Jun 2003 16:45:13 |
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Artalis
Senior Scribe
USA
444 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2003 : 04:55:13
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Gunpowder eh, well here's my 2 cp...
Who cares! Sure you can use it why not?
It's just alchemy (as a basic view) and/or a way to do damage at a distance, something accomplished easier and better by magic usually.
Unless gunpowder becomes cheap enough to unbalance things (ie. by way of mass production [read-assembly line post-industrial revolution]) it's just another tool to blow stuff up.
Until metallurgy catches up and manufacturing techniques make firearms reliable and safe they will never replace magic.
It's a rare mage who gets his face blown off when casting a lightning bolt.  |
Artalis
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2003 : 05:16:31
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Hmm, that's true. All very good points. Though if your DM is running a campaign where spell mishaps can occure on a failed concentration check, then I suppose it could. (That's how I would run things.) But generally not.
I still don't think the current flavor of the Realms would survive a gunpowder increase; a lot of things would have to change. Personally, I'd like to keep things as they are, with smokepowder making only a small impact at the most. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jun 2003 : 07:21:42
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I do not believe that any introduction of smokepowder into the Realms will ever be just confined to a small impact. Human nature, is human nature afterall.
May all your learning be free and unfettered
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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AraznBlair
Learned Scribe
USA
114 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2003 : 19:50:25
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| It is interesting that you all are talking about Firearms in the Realms and wether you allow it or not. Smoke Powder Firearms were used in the Maztica Trilogies. Though not everyone had them, it was only a special group of fighters that did. Like a group of longbowmen or crossbowmen. It seems from reading the books, that these weapons were extremly limited due to the amount of time it took to reload them and the chances one took from fireing one. |
Arazn Blair
Fightermage Extrodinare |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2003 : 22:23:10
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Hmm. I don't actually remember that. However, I didn't really read that trilogy in a riveted fashion. I really only finished it because it was the Realms. The whole story seemed to me to be highly unoriginal. I suppose, with all the other things lifted from Real History, the use of gunpowder wouldn't have stood out much to me.
As for the concept in general, it really doesn't have much to do with it being canon material. Many of us here are far from fixated on a if-it's-not-official-it's-not-usable mindset. What we're dicussing is more in the nature of whether or not it's actually worth it. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Gladi
Acolyte
Czech Republic
24 Posts |
Posted - 27 Mar 2004 : 20:26:31
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Bright day
I apologize for replying to echo in these grand halls but what I heard stirred me greatly. Why would anybody place any place in certain point in time? Especially if there is past to the place, why should there not be future? The change is always with us tearing our old friends from our embrace, yet bringing new ones to replace them? There is beauty in passing things as I have learned from manuscript about a certain non-Torilean unicorn. Why do you believe that stone age with magic is right? Why do you believe that bronze age with magic is right? Iron age? Dark ages? Middle ages up to the to certain date? And modern times? Why do you scold these centuries that shaped all of our world? |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 21:33:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Elrond Half Elven
In my honest opinion Fire arms don't fit into a Medieval Setting. I would also like to note that firearms do not historically fit into a medieval setting either. Well thats not true, there must be the cross over time from the Medieval era and the Renaissance where the platemail armored knight meat the lightly armored, musketeer (Or the early equivelant of the musketeer). This knight would have found that his armor was ineffective against the black powder weapon.
I don't know why I always feel the need to remind people of this, but the battlefield use of firearms actually pre-dates full plate harness.
Even ignoring the fact that the Chinese used it on battlefields from the 10th century and Genghis Khan using Chinese gunpowder experts and their bombs in the 1240s, yes, even if we ignore all Muslim use of gunpoweder weapons in the 13th century, we still get bombards being used in Spanish sieges in 1261. By the Hundred Years War, a war in which, I note, mail was considered suitable knightly wear and no one had plate armour over all his body, cannon and bombards were familiar to all students of warfare and not exotic sights on the battlefield.
In the beginning of the 15th century, i.e. the first time that plate armour began to be viable as an alternative to mail, rather than as pieces added to a suit of mail, armies already had thousands of handguns as part of their standard equipment.
The idea that plate harness is medieval is about as silly as the idea that guns made armour useless. The entire history of plate armour happens concurrently with the use and development of firearms.
quote:
Originally posted by Elrond Half Elven
In my opinion Fire arms do not belong in the Forgotten Realms setting as their is still far too much emphasis on Plate mail armour and bastard swords.
Both of which appeared in the real world only after the appearance of firearms on the battlefield. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Artemas Entreri
Great Reader
USA
3131 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2012 : 23:53:09
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quote:
I don't know why I always feel the need to remind people of this, but the battlefield use of firearms actually pre-dates full plate harness.
Then stop reminding people. Simple Solution  |
Some people have a way with words, and other people...oh, uh, not have way. -Steve Martin
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
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Tasker Daze
Seeker
84 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2012 : 04:15:55
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Dude, this discussion is 8 years old. Elrond hasn't been here in 5 years. What's the point of telling him he's wrong?  |
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Icelander
Master of Realmslore
1864 Posts |
Posted - 12 Mar 2012 : 04:42:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Tasker Daze
Dude, this discussion is 8 years old. Elrond hasn't been here in 5 years. What's the point of telling him he's wrong?
I'm not sure you quite grasped the joke above.
I know that people being wrong on the Internet is not actually important. I do realise that they are not going to stop being wrong, ever, whether I tell them so or not.
So whether the specific poster is likely to be reading it or not, any campaign against people being wrong on the Internet is akin to Cervantez' epynomous hero war against the giants, except less useful.
Even so, I often can't restrain myself from the urge to educate.
And it's not as if there is absolutely no hope for success. The horse may learn to sing.
Similarly, when discussing a campaign setting, it is useful for participants to have the same thing in mind when using concepts like 'medieval'. Even if I doubt I'll change anything, I can at least try. |
Za uspiekh nashevo beznadiozhnovo diela!
Forgotten Realms fans, please sign a petition to re-release the FR Interactive Atlas
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2013 : 23:53:13
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Okay, since I dislike starting new threads, especially when the topic has already been covered before, I (re)cast *** Rez Scroll ***
Firearms. I know FR has them (in canon), and I know we've been ignoring them for 2 editions (and I agree with this). I also know where to find the pertinent FR rules for such, along with tons of rules available elsewhere (in OGL settings).
So here goes... My 2 younger sons grew up with video game settings like Warcraft, and my youngest wants a gun for his dwarven ranger. When I played WoW, I had a dwarven ranger who used a gun, so I understand where he is coming from. In that setting, I do not feel that guns detracted from the overall fantasy feel of the place.
Now I plan to allow guns in my campaign, but I want 'realistic' reasons why they haven't seen widespread usage. The 'secret formula' thing I figure is a given, but I need more. I am going to ignore the convoluted FR stuff about Smokepowder (which has the same ingredients and behaves the same as gunpowder, so it is pointless IMO), and just just say Smokepowder IS black powder. Smokepowder is still hard to come by, but it is becoming more readily available in recent years (the Shou have brought the formula with them from the east). Another 'control' I am putting on them is that they are manufactured by one particular clan of dwarves. I have some history to go with this (its actually ancient tech to the dwarves), but lets ignore that for now. So the dwarves control the firearms themselves, but others can provide Smokepowder. That might seem counter-intuitive to my goals, but I do want cannon to have come into common usage (along with things like explosives and fireworks... even Middle-Earth had fireworks).
Here's my problem - I don't want armies to even consider using them. Individual adventurers might have one just because they are 'kewl', but beyond the "bragging rights" factor most just ignore them. Are there any area effect spells that would keep guns from firing? I'm thinking that I read somewhere a spell that keeps people from lighting fires - that would be PERFECT. If a fairly low-level spell could be cast and remove the danger of battlefield firearm usage, then I will have achieved the precise mindset I want (that guns are just 'frivolous dwarf toys'). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2013 : 01:39:11
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The usual methods of keeping firearm populations from breeding:
- "secret formula" known only to alchemists, real world gunpowder formulas just don't work (refuse to ignite or whatever)
- exotic ingredient required in formula, anything which can't be easily harvested in quantity
- powerful group strictly controls gunpowder distribution (War Wizards of Cormyr, Church of Gond, Harpers, Red Wizards, Angry Dwarf Clan, Assassin's Guild, whatever) and they make it a priority to spy, scry, trace, and track all smokepowder in the land
- risk or accumulated penalty associated with use (poisoning, radiation exposure, curse/stigma, etc)
- a variation of the above, using firearms attracts the attention of certain entities (blessings of Talos, anger of Tempus, hunger of Moander or Mephistopheles, etc).
You gotta let go of some canon if you want to limit smokepowder in the Realms, because 3E and 4E smokepowder weaponry is indeed becoming standard gear for adventurers and armies. I'd go with adapting the Savage Coast approach, perhaps replacing vermeil with costly residuum, perhaps saying cinnabryl/steelseed only forms after years of exposure to Underdark radiations. Perhaps Red Wizards and Lantanese Gondsmen and spelljammers have their own (different) smokepowders as well, perhaps even more rarely encountered and with different properties or "grades" than the type the PCs can normally procure. If you want to limit smokepowder then it shouldn't be impossible (although it should be very costly) for PCs to obtain/duplicate it in "personal" quantities, yet it shouldn't be affordable or practical for any but the most elite military units.
If you want to block your players from wanting smokepowder by making it excessively dangerous or useless then just roll for chances of ignition/explosion every time any quantity of smokepowder is ever exposed to fire-based magics (or hey, any magics of any kind). Make it limp and impotent whenever it gets even slightly damp. Make it become chemically inert and "expire" after a certain shelf-life or after exposure to air or sunlight or whatever.
There's plenty of spells which inhibit smokepowder and firearms. Heat metal, mirror image, windwall, wraithform, protection from normal missiles, gust of wind, ice storm, telekinesis, elemental aura, the list goes on and on. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 26 Jan 2013 01:51:49 |
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Ammag
Acolyte
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2013 : 01:52:15
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| I don't mind firearms in the game because many standard and magical attacks easily out-compete them. Who wants to use what is essentially a really expensive heavy crossbow that doesn't work in the rain and might blow up in your face? They caught on in real life because in the real world there aren't unrealistic AC and Hit Points rules, or wands of fireball (etc). If we're afraid of making plate armor obsolete, look at just about every offensive spell there is -- does plate armor stop it? And those castle walls? One high-level wizard with a Fly spell makes common siege engines hard to justify. I just don't see why any character in his right mind would bother with the time and expense of firearms even if they were available, except as an exotic weapon that Dwarves and Gnomes roll out every so often just to be weird. |
Edited by - Ammag on 26 Jan 2013 01:54:02 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2013 : 02:37:27
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Actually, bows and crossbows didn't work well in the rain either. The strings stretch out and weaken when wet. Genoese crossbowmen eventually (after taking heavy losses in several rainy battles) learned a method of waxing their crossbow strings to give them a good shot or two before their weapons were rendered useless by weather. Heavy crossbows could also easily penetrate even heavy jousting breastplates with a solid short range hit. And be reloaded much faster.
D&D basically ignores this sort of stuff or handwaves it behind some "secret elven technique" or something. And it ignores all sorts of details when spells go off. Yet it makes some attempt to present firearms in an encouraging manner. To be honest, D&D weapon stats and application are simply awful and arbitrary in terms of "realism", good game, bad simulation, and the firearms fare quite badly. I also agree, magic missiles and fireballs are far more efficient. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2013 : 04:17:50
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Well, my point was that Smokepowder is indeed fairly common now (because cannon are very much in use aboard ships). Also, only one particular clan of dwarves makes guns (for others - thats part of the history). Dwarves use them because they don't use magic (yeah... 3e lied... a lot...) Obviously this version of the Realms is VERY different (far more so then any of my past versions).
Its D20, mostly based on Pathfinder (for no other reason then I am most familiar with 3e at this point, and PF is the best set of currently published OGL rules out there). If I still had my 3.5 books I'd be using those instead.
So everybody knows about gunpowder and guns, and although its still a well-kept secret on how to make Smokepowder, lots of people know the secret (mostly because of the Shou). Folks have no problem with using shipboard cannons, but other uses haven't really caught-on on land - and thats what I've been trying to figure out.
The way I see it, there has to be a fairly low-level spell that creates a fire-dampening AoE that lasts for several rounds (at the very least). Something as simple as that would ruin guns for normal battle usage in the Realms. As for ships - most don't have mages, and those that do probably can't close fast enough to make the cannon inoperable (before they start wreaking havoc on the mage-bearing ship).
So adventuring using them makes sense, because they are usually fighting things that won't have that sort of magic available. In normal warfare they'd be expecting that and be prepared for it. Guns would also catch-on in magic dead regions (if any are large enough to make this feasible). This also opens-up a whole new area of development if I care to explore it - creating items (or guns themselves) that are protected from magic. For instance, bullets that are manufactured from elements taken from a magic-dead zone (so a mage casting the fire/spark nullifying magic will be nerfed)
Hmmmm.. can a gun fire if it has no oxygen/air? I'm thinking that there could be several different elemental spells that could help keep guns in check. Maybe even a simple 'plug/cork' cantrip could stopper the barrel temporarily. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2013 : 04:42:38
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Just use dispel magic. It's a low-level spell, standard issue for every mageling in the land, easy to cast on close targets (like a line of riflemen) but difficult to cast vs distant targets (like the cannon decks of an enemy ship).
Say that smokepowder is treated like potions and oils: basically a bunch of immiscible substances which can only be combined (or recombined) through alchemical processes to form a single-use magical item. Gotta worry about keeping the smokepowder away from dispel magic and anti-magic shell and magic-dead zones, etc, along with the usual conditions of keeping it away from water and liquids, heat and flame, sudden force or impact, etc.
...
I forgot to mention the always-underestimated shield spell in my earlier post. The AC vs missiles from this lowly spell is basically equivalent to plate mail (and cannot be pierced). Blur deserves mention too, along with all the wall of something spells.
I'm unaware of any specific anti-firearms spells, but if you require one in your campaign then simply create one; you can say that most mages learn protection from firearms and protection from firearms, 10' radius while apprenticing, because mages are well aware of how serious firearms can become. Not many adventurers and armies would arm themselves with weaponry which is next to useless against mages (especially if it could all be ruined with a simple spell, after lugging it around forever), yet they would still use these weapons for artillery purposes, naval and siege warfare. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 26 Jan 2013 04:52:10 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2013 : 05:02:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Here's my problem - I don't want armies to even consider using them. Individual adventurers might have one just because they are 'kewl', but beyond the "bragging rights" factor most just ignore them. Are there any area effect spells that would keep guns from firing? I'm thinking that I read somewhere a spell that keeps people from lighting fires - that would be PERFECT. If a fairly low-level spell could be cast and remove the danger of battlefield firearm usage, then I will have achieved the precise mindset I want (that guns are just 'frivolous dwarf toys').
Make a water-based version of any fire spell, and use that. Waterball, spraying hands, splashing sphere... Even drip, a watery version of the spark cantrip.
Or how about a protection from fire spell? |
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Kyrel
Learned Scribe
151 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2013 : 13:11:15
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| You know, while I agree that guns probably shouldn't become something you see everywhere, all over the Realms, I don't really see any significant problems with the existence of blackpowder weapons in relation to the setting. Make them somewhat heavy and cumbersome, slow to load (along the lines of 1-2 times per minute), limited range, and with a danger of misfiring, and there you go. Give them Ranged Touch Attacks (armour is of little defense against a gun after all), and something like 1d6-1d10dam. This way it might be useful, but frankly, most magic will outshine it, be safer, and probably easier to use safely as well. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2013 : 04:50:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Or how about a protection from fire spell?
This was more along the lines I was looking for - something so simple any mage would know it.
I may just create my own Douse Fire spell: Originally created to put out fires in cities but later found useful on the battlefield (where folks love to set stuff on fire). Since the spell would have already been in-place in military actions, the use of firearms is normally not even considered in large-scale engagements.
You see, my problem was keeping bows useful, and many of the same types of magic would nullify those as well (like protection from missiles). And as I said, I also want cannon in common use (at least at sea), so it would have to be some sort of range (area) effect.
Thanks for all the suggestions guys. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 27 Jan 2013 04:51:32 |
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Firearms in (A)D&D
