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Originally posted by Brian R. James

For what it's worth Murghôm enjoys a two page spread in the new FRCG. Beyond that I cannot say more.

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Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Is there a section that might deal with Murghom and its culture in the pre Spellplague era, or does it mainly revolve around its current state?

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Originally posted by Markustay
http://dnd.merchi.org/

You can download a campaign book for Murghôm from there, although it's not canon, it is helpful for fleshing out the region.

Semphar was best covered in The Horde set, and got some decent coverage in the novel The Horselords.

For some updated information on some of this region, look to future editions of the CandleKeep Compendium.

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Originally posted by Brian R. James
For what it's worth Murghôm enjoys a two page spread in the new FRCG. Beyond that I cannot say more.

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Originally posted by Markustay

I respectfully disagree - I think the inclusion of the Hordelands and kara-Tur added another level of Realism to the Realms, and were done very well. It would have been nice to have seen those areas further developed over the years, but I don't think they detracted from the setting in any way.

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Originally posted by dalor_darden

So I don't understand how the addition of Kara-Tur took away from the Forgotten Realms?

In what way did it have a negative impact?

Kara-Tur was so very far away, nobody really even knew about the place. So a Samurai finds himself in Thesk as a Ronin...how does that hurt the campaign setting exactly?

I mean, you have swathes of land devoted loosely to medieval Europe, so how does the FR suffer from lands loosely devoted to medieval Asia?

To me, that is like saying the Wild West shouldn't have Chinese Rail Workers...or Poland and the Teutonic Knights should never have faced the Mongols (and got kicked like a dinted tin can).

I always thought the addition of a Far Eastern Element to the Forgotten Realms added more to the Suspension of Disbelief.

As always, that is just my own opinion.

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Originally posted by Jorkens

As always these are my subjective opinions and ramblings.

What it took away? Any ideas and plans Ed had for the areas. Kara Tur was far away, but Semphar, Murghom and the Hordelands was pretty near more established regions. My main interest in the Realms is Eds world, so for me that took away the possibility to see even more lands as he saw them. I hold the same opinion when it comes to the Moonshae and (to a degree) the lands of Amn, Tethyr and Calimshan. I like these products, but they feel like add-ons and other lore was removed to fit them in.

I agree that the central Realms are more or less “European” in their core, but they are mainly fantasy. The same goes for Zakhara; to a degree it is based on middle eastern and north-African culture, but it is a mixture of pulp, myths, clichés and reality that removes it clearly from its earthly inspiration. Kara-Tur, the tuigan and (to a degree) the Moonshaes and the Ancient Empires are historical fantasy with a clear grounding in concrete cultures. You might as well place the 2ed. Historical (Celts, Vikings, Crusades, Rome etc) supplements in the main Realms.

One could have made fantasy inspired by the feel of these areas and thereby fitted it better into the Realms by going more in the direction one did with Zakhara. Nomads, divine kings, ancient, mysterious empires, dragon kings etc ? Great. Now The Lama in Tibot, the Dragonwall etc. Thats something else, these are directly imported from earth (for me) takes away as much of the Realmsfeel as the naming of the seven villages of Netherill after musicians and such.

Another problem with these lands is the rules. They were based clearly on the Oriental Adventures rules whilst the rest of the Realms were standard D&D. In other words mages and dragons were totally different on each side of a mountain chain with little influence on each other trough the ages. This made a degree of sense with Maztica, where there was a sea between the continents, but with Kara-Tur and the Horde lands it became a unnatural border. In the South the result is a mountain chain with different eucologies on each slope. Unless there is some unseen force field this becomes a bit strange. Zakhara incorporated the Realmslore and the creatures, magics (and clichés if you will) of the Realms to a far greater degree, giving them a connection of sorts.

I agree with you that these lands should be far different from the main Realms, but they should at least be based on original ideas that made them a natural part of the same planet.

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Originally posted by dalor_darden
So Ed never had ideas for a "Far East" eh?

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Originally posted by Daviot

Fellow scribes, I've been scouring the forums, as well as the old Horde set, the FR 3.0 Campaign Setting and the (somewhat) recent [i]Lost Empires of Faerun and I've stumbled upon a Realms-L document for 2001 Murghom but other than, I've never found about these semi-fallen semi-autonomous vassal states other than short 1 paragraph blurbs, cultural generalizations, and Ed's anonymous well-traveled trader.

I'd most forgotten about it, and then I found Markustay's wonderful map. So many dots I've never heard of and others merely name-dropped!

Are there any (official, semi-official, or even high-quality fan stuff) that discuss these two overlooked portions of the Realms, specifically a list of descriptions for the sizes and flavors of the cities (and large towns) in Semphar?

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Originally posted by dalor_darden

I think that Semphar's cities, little touched by true war for centuries it would seem, would be large and thriving mercantile centers...vast numbers of poor ruled over by a military elite, the leaders of which are not only powerful generals, but also powerful merchant princes.

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Originally posted by Markustay

Ummmmm... the northern cities and towns have been fighting a war off and on for a thousand years or more with Murghôm - thats why there are NO settlements between the Ghast and Haqar rivers.

In the past, Semphar has been conquered by everyone form Mulhorand to Shou-Lung, and attacked by other lesser powers since it's beginning.

Currently, it owes fealty to Yaïmunnahar and Hubadai Khahan, because they conquered it in 1359 DR. Khazari, on the other hand, is probably free of Hubadai's yoke for now, because of the 'problems' occurring recently in Ra-Khati... I will be addressing some of that soon.

I can see Semphar rising to prominence as a mercantile power, but definately not as a military one. They have a history of only defeats.

Also, as of The Horde boxed set, the Rauthenflow is now traversible for its entire length, so ships can freely bring trade goods back and forth between the Inner Sea and Gbor Nor (Brightstar Lake). This a rather new developnment, and must have taken place between 1357 and 1359 DR (it was impassable in Old Empires) - going by the dates of the modules invloved, I would place Mulhorand's clearing of the river around 1358 DR. Strangley, even though this was done by Mulhorand, it seems to be benefitting Semphar musch more. It is only a matter of time before Murghôm puts a stop to this, since these ships are passing through ITS LANDS! Bear in mind, too, that Murghôm is part of Mulhorand still, which is the power that actually cleared the river and built the system of locks and whatever to allow ships to pass through safely. Semphar may be enjoying an economic boom for a year or two, but it will all come crashing down arouind 1359 DR, between the current occupation and Mulhorand 'wising up' (if it no longer controls Semphar, even ostensibly, it will not be granting free access to the River to the rival of its vassal state).

While looking up references for this post, I realize that the map of the Hordelands in Dragon #349 is incorrect - It mispelled 'Yaïmmunahar' (two 'N's)! The offical worldmap also shows the Port City of Ghaast on the wrong river - I detest poor research amongst cartographers...

I'll be sending my new map of the Hordelands to Alaundo forthwith.

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Originally posted by Markustay

Semphar could very well become the next Sembia (is 'Sem' a prefix in some language meaning 'merchant'?)

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