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Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
 Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 14:53:19
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I am beginning to lose respect for Ed Greenwood. It really looks as though he is willing to sacrifice his visions and artistic integrity for a paycheck from WOTC. The 4th ed of the Realms (from what we've seen) appears to be nothing like anything Ed had envisioned or created in his own campaigns/treasury of world information and yet he seems willing to sign on to write for the guidebook, lending his name and essentially his approval for the destruction of his own creation. Can someone here please tell me where I went wrong, or has Ed "jumped the shark".
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 14:59:21
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The Realms are Ed's baby, and I really wouldn't expect him to abandon ship. I think you judge him too harshly. Some changes were a given, and beyond his ability to control, but, being in Ed's position, wouldn't you rather have a chance to do some shaping and molding on the things that weren't set in stone yet? Further, if WOTC is set on destroying Maztica, for example, if its going to happen anyway, would you not want to have the chance to show what you would have put there in the first place?
I'm not big on the 4th edition Realms, and I don't really plan on using them, nor supporting them, but at the same time, I completely understand Ed's desire, as well as the desire of several freelancers that have been part of the Realms for years now, to want to have a hand in what is going on. There certainly isn't any lack of respect on my part. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 15:01:16
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You're reading him wrong. He's not in charge of the train wreck, and we've seen no indications that he approves of it. It wasn't his idea, either.
With the Sellplague, Ed had a choice: he could wash his hands of the setting, letting his baby go off without any input from him whatsoever, or he could stay aboard and try to mitigate the damage.
He chose the latter. It wasn't a sellout, it was him trying to keep some input into the setting, and trying to keep it from becoming something wholly unrecognizable. Ed loves the Realms, and he's keeping his hand in to try to preserve some of the detail and lore that drew us into the setting. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 15:05:13
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| Also, can you really blame someone for wanting a paycheck? Ed has expenses to pay just like the rest of us do. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 15:08:28
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| I have to agree with the rest of my fellow scribes. you judge him too harshly |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 15:09:30
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No doubt, our lovely Lady Hooded One will be along here at some point to once again put forth Ed's own view on the development of the future Realms.
In the meantime, Apex, I suggest you read through Ed's own words on the subject of 4e FR. They're right here at Candlekeep... in the second half [September onwards] of his '07 replies. They should help to clarify a little about how he has responded to the changes, and just what he's looking to achieve with his own work in the Realms beyond August '08.
Take heed of those words, and read them carefully. You'll see that Ed's love for the Realms hasn't diminished. It's as strong now as it ever was.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 01 Feb 2008 15:17:29 |
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Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 15:32:04
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| I understand the points everyone is making above, but by attaching his name to this abomination, Ed is at real risk of going down with the ship and is essentially condoning the destruction of his Realms. I have read through most of Ed's stuff here, which is where I started to lose respect. Ed is running the real risk of being that guy at Enron who stayed because he was there at the beginning and thought (wrongly) that he could prevent disaster. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 15:46:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Apex
I understand the points everyone is making above, but by attaching his name to this abomination, Ed is at real risk of going down with the ship and is essentially condoning the destruction of his Realms. I have read through most of Ed's stuff here, which is where I started to lose respect. Ed is running the real risk of being that guy at Enron who stayed because he was there at the beginning and thought (wrongly) that he could prevent disaster.
So you think that he should instead step back, watch the setting die a horrible death, and then do nothing? You're recommending he walk away from something that not only helped put him on the map, but that has also connected him with thousands of friends and fans, and that has been a major part of his life for 40-some years, if not more? He's not worthy of respect because he's trying to keep the fans happy, rather than abandoning us?
I'm sorry, but you've obviously got a different definition of what is respectable than the rest of us. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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l33td0ggy
Acolyte
25 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 15:50:25
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if you can't respect ed for all that, then maybe your respect isn't worht having.
the sellplague (ha, wooly, that name is too funny!) sucsk, but at least ed is trying to make it something not totally bad. |
i have no sig. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5695 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 17:39:34
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Lock it down, number one. <in best Patrick Stewart voice> 
Ed should be commended for trying to patch the holes, rather then just standing aside and watching the ship sink. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 02 Feb 2008 01:16:10 |
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Baleful Avatar
Learned Scribe
Canada
161 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 17:40:20
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I'd just like to say one thing before we move on, Alaundo.
Through his postings here and public statements about all of the 4e Realms changes and controversies, these last few months, I have GAINED new respect for Ed.
I always thought he was a darned good designer and worldbuilder (and one of the best fiction writers active in game-related fiction, too, despite the trashings many gamers seem to like to hand him), but now I've seen that he's also a nice, sensitive, and loyal to fans, friends, and fellow gamers guy.
He clearly tries to see all sides of any issue, try to harm everyone the least, and do the best thing.
Wish some of our real-world politicians behaved the same way.
So if he reads this: thanks, Ed. Whether the ship is going onto the rocks or not, I feel better knowing you're fighting with the helm, NOT abandoning ship.
And as for a "paycheck," hasn't Ed said many times that he's not a staffer at TSR and now WotC, and never has been?
Just my two coppers, added because I think the perfectly legitimate opinion that started this thread should in this case be balanced by a perfectly legitimate (but opposed) opinion.
There. Done now. So I'll shut up. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 17:44:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Baleful Avatar
And as for a "paycheck," hasn't Ed said many times that he's not a staffer at TSR and now WotC, and never has been?
He's a freelancer, not a WotC/TSR employee, but he still gets paid for his work. Still, it's not like he's getting paid a million dollars for not "abandoning ship". I think he is staying on out of love, for both the setting and for its fans. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 17:48:07
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It seems it must be like walking into a Loviatar temple ... and not out of one's own desire.
Yet, while we are "at it", what colour does the hood actually have? |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gćđ a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerűn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 01 Feb 2008 17:49:04 |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 17:55:12
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I just want to post a couple quotes from Ed's Wise words from Ed, regarding 4e FR:
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One (on behalf of Ed Greenwood)
This is indeed the Big Risk in all of this, the “roll of the dice” that I wish someone had never decided to make (because I personally value the ongoing development of a shared and unbroken imaginary Grand History of a fictional fantasy setting as something magnificent in itself, an achievement we should all continue to contribute to).
Yet it’s happening regardless of my personal wants, and I choose to be onboard trying to paddle and steer, rather than left behind swimming in the water, calling out that perhaps we should have set a different course.
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One (on behalf of Ed Greenwood)
Although I know the Realms is intended as “a place to play,” and therefore should be something of a haven from the unpleasantnesses of real life, so we can hold on to elements in it we love and hold most precious, even in the Realms everything changes. I hate changing anything in the published Realms before I finish the (admittedly endless) task of detailing every corner of it (we still aren’t really off the first continent, are we?), but the alternative is static boredom . . . dust settling on statues in silence.
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One (on behalf of Ed Greenwood)
So I’m going through this struggle, too. Lose Syluné? Hell, lose ALL the human NPCs I spent forty years bringing to life? This had BETTER be good!
Wizards of the Coast obviously believes it will be. I’m going to do my best to help them make it so.
When reading this letter from Ed (and I get emotional every time I do), it is clear that Ed was not for these changes. In fact, he argued over and over again against them. And I think that it is wrong for anyone to accuse him of staying with it for the money. It is my sincere belief that he is doing this so that the Realms does not get nuked to oblivion (figuratively and literally) by the individuals in power who decided that all of these changes would be a good thing. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
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Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 19:22:50
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| My original point was that maybe had Ed dug his heels in at the first suggestion of this and made it very clear to WOTC that not only would he have no part in this, but that he would actively and openly campaign against it, that they might have abandoned or at least toned down their destruction of the Realms. And I really meant no disrespect to Ed, as I am a huge fan of his work and still, like him, play 2nd edition (signing off on this thread). |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 20:10:52
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| If they're willing to hang the thousands of long-term fans out to dry in favor of new fans, I doubt they would have sweated it at all if Ed had refused to participate. They would have shrugged their shoulders and gone to the next writer. He already argued against the changes, and they overruled him. They were determined to do the Sellplague, and for them, Ed is just a freelancer. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 21:16:59
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| Besides, it can always be retcon'd at the end of 4E.. someone uses the new broken magic system to go back in time and save Mystra. :P |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
Edited by - SirUrza on 01 Feb 2008 21:25:58 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 21:20:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Apex
My original point was that maybe had Ed dug his heels in at the first suggestion of this and made it very clear to WOTC that not only would he have no part in this, but that he would actively and openly campaign against it, that they might have abandoned or at least toned down their destruction of the Realms. And I really meant no disrespect to Ed, as I am a huge fan of his work and still, like him, play 2nd edition (signing off on this thread).
Understood, but I think speculation about what a person's "true feelings" might be is something that should be avoided (regarding anybody here). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 01 Feb 2008 21:21:29 |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 21:26:21
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I really do see believe with 5E or whatever resembles 4.5E... You know 4E Revised since they claim no .5 editions, even though they claimed no kits/prestige classes/whatever 4E is calling them and so on... we'll see 2 Realms emerge, support for pre and post Spellplague, just like Dragonlance has 2 settings.
Why? Because like 3 and 3.5.. the people in charge today won't be in charge then. And their views, objectives, and strategies will be different, just like 3 and 3.5. They'll find more hate and bitterness from Realms fans that were burned by the 4E changes and try to appease them. Since it's a RPG, they won't retcon the timeline, they'll just do what RPGs do and release a different product lines, pre and post Spellplague. In envision the game product stagnating and never catching up to the fiction.
And nothing would make me happier then to see the 4E FRCG sell worse then the 3E FRCS.. though Wizards will never admit to it.
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"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 21:27:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Also, can you really blame someone for wanting a paycheck? Ed has expenses to pay just like the rest of us do.
Alaundo, please keep this scroll open. I think that it is good to have a vehicle to discuss what we don't like as well as what we do. I would suggest, though, that it be expnded to a "What I Dislike About the Forgotten Realms" scroll so that we can discuss it among ourselves and so that the writers, game designers, and Hasbro executives can see where they will meet market resistance. If you do as I suggest, may I further suggest that posters be asked to provide a 1 to 10 scale for their dislike, ranging from 1 ("OMG, I would never buy this particular product or anything by the same writer/designer/artist/etc. !") to 10 ("OMG, I thought the Forgotten Realms would suck, but this product has totally changed my mind about the Forgotten Realms/a writer/a designer/an artist/etc., and I want to buy more products made by him or her!"). I'd also suggest constant monitoring by moderators to make sure language stays civil.
I'll be perfectly honest and say that one "canon" Realms novel may be the absolute, bona fide, gen-u-wine worst book which I have ever read from cover-to-cover in many decades of reading, and I posted a review to that effect on Amazon.com, and actively warn my players not to waste money on it, which they might be inclined to do because it ties in with another Realms product which they may already own, because it is so very, very bad, and tell them that its unread-by-me predecessors are claimed by Amazon reviewers to be abominably worse still! (None of these books were written by Ed or the "major" writers of the Realms, by the way.)
Apropos of doing things "for the paycheck," actor/director Jason "Voice of Tasselhoff" Marsden recently posted on his MySpace blog (yes, that's really, truly his blog) that sometimes very good people do very bad things because they need to make a mortgage payment/get braces for the kid/fix the roof/etc. He specifically cited Snow Dogs -- one of the worst movies ever made -- which starred Academy Award winner Cuba Gooding Jr.
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 22:56:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Apex
My original point was that maybe had Ed dug his heels in at the first suggestion of this and made it very clear to WOTC that not only would he have no part in this, but that he would actively and openly campaign against it, that they might have abandoned or at least toned down their destruction of the Realms. And I really meant no disrespect to Ed, as I am a huge fan of his work and still, like him, play 2nd edition (signing off on this thread).
I don't think such a 'stance' would have in any way created the result you think. The unpublished novel "Shores of Dusk" likely still lies mouldering in some vault at WotC. No one individual is bigger than or indispensable to the game or any one setting. Otherwise, Gary Gygax would still be running the whole show.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Longtime Lurker
Seeker
51 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 23:10:04
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Apex, I overheard R.A. Salvatore dining out at a recent Gencon [he was at a nearby table in the same restaurant] saying he was furious at the proposed changes, and told WotC so, at length in person and in writing. He also said [as far as I can recall] "Boyd sounded real uneasy, and Ed wasn't pleased, either."
I had no idea what he was discussing, because he didn't say one word re. what this "secret meeting" was about, but I'm now guessing it was this Big Change for the Realms, because I can't think what else would upset Salvatore.
If I'm right, and I sure think I am, then Salvatore and Greenwood and Eric Boyd DID argue strongly against this change, and were not heeded.
If you think Ed G should have gone public with his disagreement and that would have worked, I don't think so. For years Gary Gygax was on the outs with TSR and saying so VERY publicly, and it didn't work for him. The guy who created the whole game, not just the Realms.
So I'm in the camp of the fans who think Ed staying along for the ride to do damage control is the best thing he could have done. I think if he HAD fought with Wizards publicly it wouldn't have changed a thing except losing everyone in gaming his published connection with the Realms.
Of course, we could all have migrated to Castlemourn, but the Realms would still have gone through the changes it's going through right now. At least that's how I see it. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 23:30:10
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I'm more than a little uncomfortable with some of the comments made earlier in this particular scroll. I'm going to leave it open for the time being, but I will be watching closely.
Let's remember that the Code of Conduct applies, and try to have a productive discussion.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 23:34:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Longtime Lurker
(snip)
For years Gary Gygax was on the outs with TSR and saying so VERY publicly, and it didn't work for him. The guy who created the whole game, not just the Realms.
(snip)
That's half the game. Please let us not forget Dave Arneson! Nor let us forget David "Zeb" Cook, who guided much of AD&D (although Gygax's complaints may stem from that, so let's just play it safe and remember to honor Dave Arneson  ).
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 23:38:12
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*nods*
It wouldn't surprise me that Bob doesn't like the changes either and I for one don't believe for a minute he's going to kill off everyone except for Drizzt in his novels for the sake of time jumping. Bob understands the Realms are more then a collection of popular cities, it's about the people and the adventures one can have there. None of the "new" characters have struck my like Ed, Elaine, and Bob's have.
Most of Ed's will be dead.. from old age or from not being chosen anymore. Bob's characters are all in question.. I for one hope he doesn't advance his timeline. And Elaine.. well... who knows if she'll ever write the Realms again, but all of her characters except for 2 of them will be dead. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 23:46:03
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quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
Bob understands the Realms are more then a collection of popular cities, it's about the people and the adventures one can have there.
Indeed, and that's something some "pro-change people" don't seem to get when they say stuff like, "What's all the fuss about? The map more or less looks the same (though they may not say that now!), Waterdeep and Cormyr are still there, the countries that are gone were unimportant, etc."
quote:
Bob's characters are all in question.. I for one hope he doesn't advance his timeline.
He may not have a choice. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 01 Feb 2008 23:46:25 |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 23:50:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
He may not have a choice.
Maybe, maybe not. We've got 2 years before we find out. :)
Does anyone else find it terribly amusing that the Elminster books just got reprinted in the Anotated and now they're releasing all the Collected Edition Drizzt books until the Legends of heading when all of these books don't mean anything to the Realms anymore? |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
Edited by - SirUrza on 01 Feb 2008 23:51:10 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 23:50:37
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quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
Most of Ed's will be dead.. from old age or from not being chosen anymore.
Not necessarily. There are still some of Ed's characters that have access to caches of potions of longevity. And from what I understand of the workings of arcane items in the 4e Realms, such permanently stored magic should still function as it would have in previous editions. So there are opportunities for some of the oldest among Ed's characters, like Mirt for example, to continue to extend their lives through the usage of potions of longevity after the Spellplague and its devastating impact upon particular magical items.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Mazrim_Taim
Learned Scribe
341 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2008 : 07:15:44
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Do we know any negative side effects to the potions of longevity? I mean, it's be great if Mirt could stay alive even if he does grow a third arm.
And I think anyone can see that Ed doesn't like the change just from his comments and the fact that ... they are his Realms. His project since he was a young lad. He doesn't lose my respect at all. I still consider him an inspiration. |
And if the PCs DO win their ways through all the liches to Larloch, “he” will almost certainly be just another lich (loaded with explosive spells) set up as a decoy, with dozens of hidden liches waiting to pounce on any surviving PCs who ‘celebrate’ after they take Larloch down. As the REAL Larloch watches (magical scrying) from afar. Myself, as DM, I’d be wondering: “Such a glorious game, so many opportunities laid out before your PCs to devote your time to, and THIS fixation is the best you can come up with? Are you SURE you’re adventurers?” -Ed Greenwood
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Edited by - Mazrim_Taim on 02 Feb 2008 07:19:56 |
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Losing Respect For Ed
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