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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Jan 2008 : 03:49:32
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I recently bought something which had an old-timey TSR prospectus included, and I now wonder: Is the Hollow World boxed set really necessary to plunder 9339 HWR2 Kingdom of Nithia and 9384 HWR3 The Milenian Empire for ideas for a Realms campaign, or is it needed only to actually play in those two settings?
By the way, is this the world which the "Princess Ark" came from? I've never read any of the stories from the series, although I have almost all of it now.
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1715 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2008 : 18:12:46
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Yes, The HOLLOW WORLD was the inside of Mystara (aka "The Known World" of D&D rules) and the home port of the Princess Ark.
In my opinion, you'll only get the most out of the HW products with the boxed set, as it establishes the world geography and rules for odd things (and reasons for why you can't just use fly spells to go up to another continent).
Then again, if you'd like, you can just steal the core idea of HW and use it in the Realms: In effect, the gods created the Hollow World to preserve lands and cultures they particularly enjoyed and wanted to see preserved (despite the outer world's destruction of same). Thus, if you want, you can really mess with things by having Netheril surviving inside the planet (and revert the return of Shade into the Hollow World, pitting them against an entrenched Netherese who don't want these shady types taking over). Or any fallen lands (maybe Miyeritar actually sank into the Hollow World and the elves there have High Magic to protect them from the Netherese, etc.) really.
Yes, weird ideas, but if you want to play with it, it's feasible. You've even got a landed place to set a portal--use the Jungles of Chult and claim that the dinosaurs down there are actually migrating out from the inner world. :) |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Edited by - Steven Schend on 28 Jan 2008 18:14:47 |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2008 : 22:19:49
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AWESOME ideas, Steven! Many thanks!
Reading your post it also occurs to me that a hollow Toril might serve as the original homeland of Kyuss, whose Realms avatar appears in Chult in the Age of Worms adventure path.
On the topic of the Hollow World, is Wrath of the Immortals set there? They crop up together on eBay searches, but the TSR Archive doesn't list it as a Hollow World product. What is Wrath of the Immortals about, anyway? |
I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2008 : 05:50:51
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Since KUSC just played "Daffy's Rhapsody," I think that this is the right time to say, "Me and my biiig mouth!" The Immortals set is now on sale on eBay and it is already at $61.00, with almost two full days to go! I couldn't just keep my mouth shut and buy it quietly, could I? Nooo ... I have to go and mention it here and then watch the price skyrocket. Harrumph!
*sigh* If anyone wants to buy me a Lunar New Year present, I'll gladly accept this! 
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1715 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2008 : 14:36:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
AWESOME ideas, Steven! Many thanks!
Reading your post it also occurs to me that a hollow Toril might serve as the original homeland of Kyuss, whose Realms avatar appears in Chult in the Age of Worms adventure path.
On the topic of the Hollow World, is Wrath of the Immortals set there? They crop up together on eBay searches, but the TSR Archive doesn't list it as a Hollow World product. What is Wrath of the Immortals about, anyway?
Oy, it's been a while since I've thought about Wrath....IIRC, it was a end-the-world scenario.....was this before or after Hollow World? Sigh....
I think that might've been the big campaign box that ended the Gazeteer series. In this, the gods/Immortals sank Alphatia out of the Known World in vengeance against their abuses. And it was my sneaky/nasty suggestion in a product group meeting to sink it all the way through into the Hollow World. 
If I'm NOT remembering correctly (and I can't check as I've divested myself of most of my gaming library this last summer--all save my MSH, FR, and other things I worked on), then someone else will have to enlighten me/us.
Steven
who still thinks the Five Shires gazeteer by Ed is the greatest non-FR product to port into FR....unless you're following 4E and making them river dwellers... |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1715 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2008 : 04:10:09
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| Imagine my shock when cleaning up the cluttered piles that cloak my bookshelves, I found myself staring at both the Hollow World and the Wrath of the Immortals boxed sets. Guess I'll have to peek at those tomorrow and see if I can add anything to this discussion..... |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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AlorinDawn
Learned Scribe
USA
313 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2008 : 05:48:45
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| Off topic, but what is the sourcebook I've seen suggested to be used for Katashaka? |
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
729 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2008 : 09:15:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
[br
On the topic of the Hollow World, is Wrath of the Immortals set there? They crop up together on eBay searches, but the TSR Archive doesn't list it as a Hollow World product. What is Wrath of the Immortals about, anyway?
One of the three main acts of the Wrath of the Immortals series is set in the Hollow World. And what it's about... Well, it's about a Spellplague, of course!
Really.
The adventure allows a PC group to live through (and influence) the events set in motion by a conflict among the Immortals, because of a perceived threat caused by one of the Immortals' experiments with the fundamentals of Mystara's magic. Net result: a huge war that spanned the entire Known World, and part of the Hollow World, Mystara's magic weakened (one day in the year, there's no magic - none whatsoever), mainland Alphatia destroyed (collateral damage resulting from the activation of a magic-nullifying artifact), but saved by the Immortals and preserved in the Hollow World (like the other civilizations that were set up there).
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2008 : 06:05:05
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Thanks for the information, folks!
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2008 : 06:09:59
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quote:
Originally posted by AlorinDawn
Off topic, but what is the sourcebook I've seen suggested to be used for Katashaka?
Might that be the Nyambe products? |
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1715 Posts |
Posted - 04 Feb 2008 : 10:44:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
[br
On the topic of the Hollow World, is Wrath of the Immortals set there? They crop up together on eBay searches, but the TSR Archive doesn't list it as a Hollow World product. What is Wrath of the Immortals about, anyway?
One of the three main acts of the Wrath of the Immortals series is set in the Hollow World. And what it's about... Well, it's about a Spellplague, of course!
Really.
The adventure allows a PC group to live through (and influence) the events set in motion by a conflict among the Immortals, because of a perceived threat caused by one of the Immortals' experiments with the fundamentals of Mystara's magic. Net result: a huge war that spanned the entire Known World, and part of the Hollow World, Mystara's magic weakened (one day in the year, there's no magic - none whatsoever), mainland Alphatia destroyed (collateral damage resulting from the activation of a magic-nullifying artifact), but saved by the Immortals and preserved in the Hollow World (like the other civilizations that were set up there).
Hehehehe. There you go, folks. For those who want an "out" from the changes yet still want their campaigns to have a touch of "sticking with canon," the Spellplague (which is both the death throes of the old Mystra and the reshuffling of magic and perhaps a manifestation of the changes going on deep in the planet) and death of Mystra unleash greater changes than anyone truly knows at first.
Come to think of it, the death of the Weave and the goddess of Magic should be rather powerful, and Mystra/Midnight knows that. Thus, when she (and perhaps other gods) dies, her last act is to spread that power surge out across time, sending it far back (and perhaps far forward as well).
The maps shift as the world gets slightly larger (and those who still want their old 2E maps to work can, or just increase the oceans), and a Hollow World suddenly manifests, taking in all of the realms that disappear from the surface. For those who want to keep them, the Old Empires still exist down deep, as might the Imaskar (who retroactively might have created the HW with enough power...such as a gift from the dying Midnight/Mystra sent back in time...or perhaps she paved the way and they discovered it/colonized it).
This could also have been where the dwarves of Undermountain ended up as well--imagine a dwarven city carved out of cliffs that span miles along the sides of a hollow world...
And in the deepest, darkest cavern (closer to HW than the Underdark), a glowing coccoon nurtures the nascent form of Mystra, who bides her time and uses the energies of the HW to slowly grow back to her former might. (And yes, for those who don't want all the Chosen to go away, use one of the Sisters as the host form for Mystra. If you really want a funky world, imagine Qylue as her host.... ) I'd expect her to lay low for centuries to gather her power without notice, and hatch/rebirth when she is needed (and for those who want it earlier, then she shunted her host form back in time with her energy so she still sleeps for at least five centuries but emerges when you wish her to).
Okay, THAT is a weird shift for the Realms, but if I were running an active campaign, I'd LOVE to introduce a big surprise like this...and not just because Edgar Rice Burroughs' Pellucidar was one of my favorite places to read about as a kid...
Steven
who may just have read too many comics as a kid, but he likes the options opened up with the Hollow World concept |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2008 : 06:42:47
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Well, strange to say, today I bought The Kingdom of Nith, The Millenian Empire, and the Millenian Sceptre books. Sometimes it pays to shop elsewhere than eBay!
I now have a much better grasp of the whole "Immortals" line, and if anyone has a spare Hollow World set (and/or Wrath of the Immortals, and/or Wrath of the Olympians, for which I was just outbid, alas!), I would be more than happy to allow you to unburden yourself of them. I will be buying more bookcases in a month or two and can give them a very good home!
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1715 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2008 : 15:48:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
Well, strange to say, today I bought The Kingdom of Nith, The Millenian Empire, and the Millenian Sceptre books. Sometimes it pays to shop elsewhere than eBay!
I now have a much better grasp of the whole "Immortals" line, and if anyone has a spare Hollow World set (and/or Wrath of the Immortals, and/or Wrath of the Olympians, for which I was just outbid, alas!), I would be more than happy to allow you to unburden yourself of them. I will be buying more bookcases in a month or two and can give them a very good home!
Well, let's talk via PM re: you buying my copy of Wrath of Immortals; it's only out of its original shrink wrap for the last few days (when I opened it to peek at the details for this thread), and it's got a slightly crumped corner as shrink wrap continues to shrink, so it damaged the goods it was supposed to protect. I'll have to look at HW and see if I've got another copy--I don't think so, and I'm enough of a pulps fan to want to hang onto my copy.
Dunno what Wrath of the Olympians is, but I don't remember that as part of the D&D line. Remind me?
SES |
For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2008 : 17:16:33
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Although Hypnos repeatedly tried to beguile me during the night, and rosy-fingered Dawn has been trying to slap some common sense into me for the last three hours, I have persevered in examining most (?) of the Hollow World / Immortals / Mystara work on the web, almost all of it done by loyal fans, and I can hardly begin to describe how cheated I feel.
I didn't like AD&D when it first came out, but I had no knowledge of the Master and the Immortal rules which already existed, Had I but known ... ! The Complete Epic Handbook is fine ... as far as it goes, but I never knew that gen-u-wine official D&D could take characters to such stratospheric ... to such world- and plane-shaking heights!
For years I have waited patiently for TSR or Wizards to produce a Realms book (other than the Bloodstone campaign), which would allow characters to reach very high levels, but instead it seems that I'm watching the world die before my eyes, just as TSR tried to let Mystara and Blackmoor die (although loyalists kept raising them).
I truly want to get as many of these books as I can now, for there are obvious similarities between some of the "Immortals" (who are not gods) and many deities familiar throughout known space and the nearby planes (Garl Glittergold and Kurtulmak for just two examples, may be ascended Immortals -- who started as mortals and then "rose through the ranks," as it were -- although I would be reluctant to go as far as one fan did and make Auril an aspect of Odin!). We know that Bane started out as a mortal somewhere and eventually achieved so many character class levels that his power exceeded that of many gods who were born with a 20 HD headstart. Did he ascend through the OD&D ("Old D&D") Master and Immortal rules until he reached the mighty pinnacle of power which he now occupies? (He has more character levels than any "major" deity in Faerun (and possibly on all of Abeir-Toril). I'd like to know what the deal is with Bane's 60+ character levels. Whom do I ask?
As WotC heads towards dramatic, Realms-shaking events which will culminate in edition 4.$$$$$, I think I'll introduce my players to what life was like back in "the good old days" of gaming. I may not run Hollow Earth itself, but Steven has certainly given me enough ideas to tie those old rules into the Age of Worms ("Ooops! Sorry, Bane, old buddy -- but you see: you've always just been a patsy for one of those 20 HD outsiders, and he'd like his portfolio back. NOW, if you please.")
As for "vestiges" and "pact magic" -- oy vey is mir! The Hollow World / Immortals / Mystara work I've seen online in just the last few hours could be a source for dozens of "vestiges" or "spirits." (For instance, what if Garl Glittergold isn't the Immortal who had such a similar name? What would happen to that being if it found its path to ascension blocked by a Power -- and a greater god, at that!? What would an embarassed mortal do but wither away to almost nothing ... nothing except the sheer, adamantine will to power which has motivated him for decades, perhaps centuries? I think, "voila!" a new "vestige or "spirit" comes into existence and begins competing for faithful with the mighty Garl Glittergold himself!)
Such are my thoughts at this early hour, but as my honest and honorable hero always said, "What do I know?"
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 07 Feb 2008 : 20:45:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
(snip)
Dunno what Wrath of the Olympians is, but I don't remember that as part of the D&D line. Remind me?
SES
Perhaps this shall jog your memory: The Wrath of Olympus 48-page book w/tri-fold cover -- "Immortals lie chained atop a mountain in the Broken Lands. Their bonds relentlessly drain their power while demons cavort with glee around the wispy barrier, as strong as any prison."
There is the ever-so-slim possibility that a player of mine may hook me up with a copy of Wrath of the Immortals within the next two weeks, leaving the Hollow World boxed set the unattainable El Dorado.
I have been absolutely amazed by the amount of fan-written material which exists on the web for Hollow World / Mystara / the Immortals! I just hope that the Forgotten Realms aren't going to be reduced to a similar state: a scattering of web sites here and there which self-perpetuate for twenty years because the publisher of D&D either kills the Realms or else just lets them die (but not completely!) by attrition.
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2008 : 09:04:41
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I'm probably definitely going to use Nithian magic as sacred "Southern Magic" from Mulhorrand, or perhaps as Imaskaran magic.
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Steven Schend
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
USA
1715 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2008 : 17:17:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
I'm probably definitely going to use Nithian magic as sacred "Southern Magic" from Mulhorrand, or perhaps as Imaskaran magic.
Now that's a good/evil idea.
For that matter, if you're adjusting and sliding in things from Mystara, who's to say that things you like from Alphatia to other Known World settings couldn't work in FR.
After all, you might be able to fit all the Gazetteer/Known World into the Border Kingdoms....or the Utter East.....
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For current projects and general natter, see www.steveneschend.com
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 15 Feb 2008 : 19:20:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
I have been absolutely amazed by the amount of fan-written material which exists on the web for Hollow World / Mystara / the Immortals! I just hope that the Forgotten Realms aren't going to be reduced to a similar state: a scattering of web sites here and there which self-perpetuate for twenty years because the publisher of D&D either kills the Realms or else just lets them die (but not completely!) by attrition.
Quite honestly I think the Vaults of Pandius takes better care of the Known World than wotc does of the realms, but thats just me.
Most of the Gazetteer material can be used in the Realms one way or the other. I have plundered and combined information from the two worlds one more than one occasion. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2008 : 00:08:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Steven Schend
quote:
Originally posted by Jamallo Kreen
I'm probably definitely going to use Nithian magic as sacred "Southern Magic" from Mulhorrand, or perhaps as Imaskaran magic.
Now that's a good/evil idea.
For that matter, if you're adjusting and sliding in things from Mystara, who's to say that things you like from Alphatia to other Known World settings couldn't work in FR.
After all, you might be able to fit all the Gazetteer/Known World into the Border Kingdoms....or the Utter East.....
Oooh! I like that idea Steven. Good stuff! 
After all, the Border Kingdoms, perhaps more so than any other part of the established Realms, are designed to be easily customised for particular and/or individual home Realms campaigns -- complete with swiftly shifting borders and ever-changing rulers. So there's plenty of room for changes and/or the addition of new details -- like those from the Gazetteer -- for your game.
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2008 : 01:53:45
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I suspect that's what Ed's always had in mind for the Border Kingdoms: flexible playgrounds.
(By the way, I found the The Milenian Empire to be much less adaptable and far more dependent upon The Hollow Earth boxed set. Together, however, they may allow for the spicing up and Hellenizing of Chessenta. By itself there's little in it worth plundering, in my opinion. Of course, I haven't actually read it yet, so I may be wrong.)
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Plundering Hollow Earth source books
