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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Jan 2008 : 20:42:07
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So I was reading Races and Classes in Borders today, and while I disagree with almost everything they were saying (and most especially with their underlying ideas and design concepts), I found myself lingering over the halfling section, and it started me thinking.
Because, as much as it pains me to admit it, they're right. There isn't a major PC race based out of the swamps in D&D. And while I have no intention of changing the existing halfling race, a "swamp halfling" seems to me to be a viable contender for a sub-culture.
That's the purpose of this thread: to explore the feasability of a 4e halfling culture in the existing Realms. They're a boat culture, using swamps and rivers to move from place to place. They have no cities or borders. So, obviously, we need to look for wetlands, preferably with a "Louisianna bayou" feel. What's required:
* A swamp or marsh (obviously)
* Must have navigatble river connections to the outside world
* Must also have cities/towns along the swamp/rivers for the halflings to trade with
* Preferably be in an area with a history of halflings (my feeling is they were orignally "normal" halflings who were invaded and fled to the swamps for safety)
Trying to come up with ideas, I whipped out my trusting FR Atlas and rediscovered that the Realms is, well, BIG. Swamp halflings would have to be a regional thing, there's no way they can cover the whole continent. Moreover, there are a number of marshes that wouldn't work very well for the concept (the Evermoors and the Lizard Marsh, for example), since they're either too dangerous or don't have proper connections. Plus, it can't be too far north or the itinerant halflings will freeze to death in the winter.
At the moment, my two leading contenders are the Spider Swamp (connections to Volothamp and Almraiven) or the Marsh of Chelimbyr (which is big enough, but doesn't have surrounding cities or towns). Alternately, we could scale the boats up a bit and move them to the Lake of Steam, but I'd first like to give the 4e halflings a shot in the swamps.
What do you all think?
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Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2008 : 21:24:40
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The lag-monster ate my reply...
short version: why not? I kinda like the idea, gets away from the hobbit-hole business
as for a general change in the Realms and making all halflings water-folk (something I'd have doubted but now think Wizards highly capable of)... HELL NO!!!
in a new campaign setting that might be fun...Dark Sun had halfling cannibals...so why not water-gypsies? |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2008 : 21:28:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Because, as much as it pains me to admit it, they're right. There isn't a major PC race based out of the swamps in D&D.
There doesn't have to be. That being said, I am amenable to the idea, although I'd prefer to use it in a different setting.
I could "buy" some halfling cultures in the Realms being boat-based, but that doesn't mean I think what's in the R&C Halfling article should be transferred directly into the Realms. The core idea in that article is that halflings have been living on boats in waterways for thousands of years, and don't feel tied to any particular parcel of land. In the Realms, that is absolutely not the case (they even have their own nation, Luiren). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2008 : 21:48:54
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| If the are so used to water...would they shave their legs and feet? |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2008 : 22:01:28
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I'm not saying I want to import them wholesale, only that I was curious about creating a swamp-dwelling halfling culture. The lore would obviously have to change, but before I can do that, I need to find a viable location for them, and that's where I'm falling flat.
Part of this is that I'd like to have an indigenous swamp culture in reserve, so to speak, that I can pull out if it ever becomes necessary. Since most of my games take place north of Waterdeep, that may not happen for a while, so as it stands right now, it's just an intellectual exercise. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2008 : 22:15:09
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| Since they'd be living in a southern climate, with all the attendant problems with keeping meat from spoiling, I'd say spicy food would be likely. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2008 : 22:19:57
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Cool... I just hope they don't play banjos 
Yep, I saw "Deliverance" |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4694 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2008 : 23:10:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
I'm not saying I want to import them wholesale, only that I was curious about creating a swamp-dwelling halfling culture. The lore would obviously have to change, but before I can do that, I need to find a viable location for them, and that's where I'm falling flat.
Part of this is that I'd like to have an indigenous swamp culture in reserve, so to speak, that I can pull out if it ever becomes necessary. Since most of my games take place north of Waterdeep, that may not happen for a while, so as it stands right now, it's just an intellectual exercise.
All you need is a delta to form to have swamp like areas to form. That likely would be quickist way to add to Realm space. Flooding for many years, perhaps 100 could form such a delta.
Jungles often get boggy in places as well due to rainy season and poor drainage from those spots. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2008 : 23:32:35
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I don't think this concept fits very well in the Realms, but if you want riverboating halflings in the Realms, I'd say Cormyr would be a good candidate, especially along:
- Starwater River
- The Wyvernflow and Wyvernwater
- Darkflow River and the Vast Swamp |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2008 : 01:00:40
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| Yeah, I'm starting to doubt the prospect myself, considering how hard it is to find a fitting locale. Cormyr's an interesting idea, though. I hadn't thought of it, partially because it'd be too cold (they'd have to do something in the winter), and because it's so well documented, and it would be easier to slip them in somewhere that doesn't have books upon books devoted to it. I'll give it some more thought, though. Thanks. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2008 : 03:24:50
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well ... Halflings ARE a rather nomadic race ... when you read about Lurien its even said that it aren't unusual that someone (anyone) moves away overnight, leaving pretty much anything they aren't wearing and going to another place where they move into a house there is everything needed (even the job of the former 'houseowner' is in the package) i can happen as often as every 6'th month for some afair
but well ... even though a water/swamp link is rather easily plugable down into Realms as it is there is still this small problem about Halflings as a race aren't to fond of open waters with anything remotely looking like waves so they'll proberly keep themselfs well into a swamp or well up an river |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2008 : 04:11:24
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| So halflings are good rogues/thieves/bards... but they're swamp monsters... makes perfect sense. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2008 : 06:13:52
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I agree the logic is a little mind-bending.
Right now, I'm looking for a theoretical discussion of whether swamp halflings make sense in Faerun. That's a different, though equally important, thread. For this one, assume that it makes sense, at least on a local level. Where would you put them and why? |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2008 : 08:08:24
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The Tunlands - they're perfect.
Two swamps, central location... I even made a map of the area for the maproom here, with swamp-towns marked.
just say the Drovers are halflings, and everything fits.
Its even cooler when you think about the halfling keeping Catoblepas and milking them like cattle.
I just hope Luiren doesn't get hit with some crazy-@ss tidle wave after 1385, and the whole country is a swamp a hundred years later.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 22 Jan 2008 20:42:15 |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2008 : 09:47:11
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| It's not highly unlikely that WotC might create an entirely new swamp in the 4e Realms only for the purpose of having halflings live there. They could change the ecology and geography of an existing swamp (any swamps you mentioned earlier could apply basically or even the March of Tun or the Farsea Marches) into a refugee place for halflings... Lurien might be entirely wetland in the 4th Ed. Markustay seems to think in similar lines. And who is to know? Due to the catalysistic (spelling?) effects of the spellplague and the great time jump almost everything is possible. |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
Edited by - Ergdusch on 22 Jan 2008 09:50:10 |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2008 : 16:59:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
It's not highly unlikely that WotC might create an entirely new swamp in the 4e Realms only for the purpose of having halflings live there. They could change the ecology and geography of an existing swamp (any swamps you mentioned earlier could apply basically or even the March of Tun or the Farsea Marches) into a refugee place for halflings... Lurien might be entirely wetland in the 4th Ed. Markustay seems to think in similar lines. And who is to know? Due to the catalysistic (spelling?) effects of the spellplague and the great time jump almost everything is possible.
There are many things that I thought that WotC were not likely to do with the Realms, and many of them have been implemented in the 4e version. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
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He left it dead, and with its head
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2008 : 19:58:19
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| There's actually quite a few halflings in Cormyr... if I remember well, the Waterdeep adventure details a village of halflings north of Jester's Green or south of the King's Forest (isn't this where the mortal Cyric - in the adventure - horribly scars one of the PCs or a halfling from that village -- DM's choice?) |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2008 : 11:13:31
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| A swamp/river culture would also make it easier to insert some of Eds hin pirate ideas from the old Five Shires suplement. |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2008 : 13:10:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
There's actually quite a few halflings in Cormyr... if I remember well, the Waterdeep adventure details a village of halflings north of Jester's Green or south of the King's Forest (isn't this where the mortal Cyric - in the adventure - horribly scars one of the PCs or a halfling from that village -- DM's choice?)
Well, details are not really given. However, the villiage you remember must be the small halfling village of Black Oaks, which is (or better 'was' as Cyric and his band of Zhentilar destroy it completely) not far from Starwater Bridge near the village of Hilp. |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
Edited by - Ergdusch on 23 Jan 2008 13:11:43 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2008 : 19:18:54
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Some minor homebrew lore - I had the Halfling survivors of Black Oaks flee north to the tiny hamlet of Collinwood, shown on my Stonelands maps.
The locale is NON-canon, but the tiny village is ruled over by the Barnibaas Family, who's family castle has sat upon those lands since Cormry's beginning.
The mysterious Count who currently rules has aquired a strange affection for the small folk, and is very protective of them, now that they've come to live in his lands. Also, prosperity has increased, with the Halflings building new farms and bringing in new trades, so it wasn't a bad idea for the old Count to take them in.
For those of you who haven't realized it yet, the Count is losely based on Barnabas Collins, a character from the old American TV show Dark Shadows.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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AlorinDawn
Learned Scribe
USA
313 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2008 : 19:50:57
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| For those of you who want a Cajun style halfing for 3E+ they can be found with all kinds of swappy goodies of lore and crunch in the book Quagmire by Spellbinder books. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2008 : 18:26:12
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| I'll have to track that down. Thanks. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2008 : 05:31:36
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When I read this, it brought to mind and older bit of Realmslore (from WotC site if I remember correctly) concerning Baron Phlensos Ursuma (CN male halfling Brd14)who runs the Ursuman Amusement Emporium in the Adder Swamp. The Emporium is s small settlement of halflings "governed" by Baron Phlensos and protected the Captain of the Ursuman Guard, Grevas (NE male werecrocodile Rgr6). While some of it was admittedly silly, I thought the basic premise was interesting enough that I worked it in to my Realms and even worked some of the lore into one of my character histories.
Using this new concept of the swamp halfling, it would be easy to make the Adder Swamp a large halfling settlement, with the wererats, werecrocodiles, and halflings fighting for dominance. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12081 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2008 : 16:23:09
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| With much of the inner sea draining into the underdark.... any chance of some of those areas turning from pure water areas into swampy areas? That might work. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2008 : 18:01:00
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Also, with the detonation of Halruaa, one must wonder what condition nearby Lurien (I know that it is quite a bit aways, but when Mt. St. Helens blew, ash ended up all around the world) is in. Ah, the major changes to the face of Toril depress me.  |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
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My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2008 : 18:32:13
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| Which is why I was curious if we could make this work in the existing Realms... since I have no intention of switching. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2008 : 18:41:57
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
With much of the inner sea draining into the underdark.... any chance of some of those areas turning from pure water areas into swampy areas? That might work.
huh? |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2008 : 19:09:03
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| I take it you haven't heard about the latest 4e Faerun-smashings. Check the Realms RPG Products sub-forum. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2008 : 19:32:00
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| Dunno, when reading about 4E halflings, Cher's song sprang to mind immediately: "Gypsies, tramps and thieves". |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2008 : 19:33:59
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Aravine, here is a link to the latest Countdown to the Realms article: "Magic in the Forgotten Realms" by Bruce Cordell.
As for placing the swam halflings in the 3.x and before Realms, this map (from the 3e FRCS) shows that there is already a swamp in Luiren, called the Mortik Swamp. I do not remember all of the details surrounding it off the top of my head though, other than right now it is avoided for some reason. However, just like the Murkwood in the Hobbit and LOTR, you could have it cleansed of its evil and inhabited. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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4e Halflings - Swamps and Rivers
