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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
 Posted - 20 Jan 2008 : 23:41:17
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OK, fair enough. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
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Ozzalum
Learned Scribe
USA
277 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2008 : 01:34:06
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quote:
*waits for the positive stuff*
I guess I'll give it a shot.
We have a 100 year span of time in which I can DM or write whatever I wish without worrying about what WotC is going to throw at me. I assume the Spellplague is pretty much it as far as RSE goes for this period of time. I don't expect WotC to flesh out all of the events that occur in this tumultuous period, which gives DM's a lot of flexibility to really be extravagant without breaking canon. If most everyone we know and love is going to be dead at the beginning of the 4E, at least we have the opportunity to write the rest of their lives.
One of the common complaints recently has been that NPC's, primarily novel characters, have been the ones advancing the timeline and dealing with saving the Realms. The years of the spellplague give us a long period in which to let the PC's deal with things.
Anyway, that's one positive I've seen. |
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2008 : 10:48:08
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| That freedom has been there before, you merely had to do your thing. Not a soul forced you to obey the novels etc to the last letter, ever. If you want your PCs to advance the timeline in your Realms, what stopped you? Clinging to stuff that might, at times, be inconsistent? I GMed Star Wars (D6) for about 8 years (on and off) and, yes, the big guns did destroy the Death Star etc., but that didn't stop me from putting the PCs into the spotlight. Sticking to lore and novels as if they were the words from the gods truly limits your style of play... if you don't like a thing... chuck it out the window, otherwise you might as well not bother playing in the Realms and just reading in it, because of the dogmatic view you have concerning lore... |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Ozzalum
Learned Scribe
USA
277 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2008 : 13:34:55
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quote:
I just want to hear some other forum browsers positive input regarding FR 4th ed, such as adventure ideas etc.
So one idea I'd been toying with was a multi-generational campaign. Have the PC's establish a kingdom just prior to the Spellplague and then take a long view. The PC's can deal with the initial strife associated with the death of the goddess. Then future generations of characters from the kingdom can adventure/save the day as events warrant. It seems (mind you I said seems, I'm sure other people may have different experiences) that campaigns are often compressed, taking place over relatively short periods of time. This hundred year jump could encourage the DM to expand the scope of a campaign, if not in geographical terms, at least in the temporal.
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TwigB
Acolyte
South Africa
46 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2008 : 14:30:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozzalum
quote:
I just want to hear some other forum browsers positive input regarding FR 4th ed, such as adventure ideas etc.
So one idea I'd been toying with was a multi-generational campaign. Have the PC's establish a kingdom just prior to the Spellplague and then take a long view. The PC's can deal with the initial strife associated with the death of the goddess. Then future generations of characters from the kingdom can adventure/save the day as events warrant. It seems (mind you I said seems, I'm sure other people may have different experiences) that campaigns are often compressed, taking place over relatively short periods of time. This hundred year jump could encourage the DM to expand the scope of a campaign, if not in geographical terms, at least in the temporal.
Nice idea
Its true, I've also felt my campaigns become somewhat compressed. With these 100 "content free" (so far) years you could play a campaign beginning with a PC and end up playing with the PC's great great grandson/daughter. Or build a stronghold now, fill it with all sorts of treasures and then wait 100 years for it to become a dungeon. Imagine your paladins newly constructed temple becoming a monster infested death pit after 100 years of chaos. Then you have his surviving bloodline mount a campaign to reclaim their fathers/mothers legacy |
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Spree Thunderheart
Acolyte
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2008 : 18:12:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Spree Thunderheart
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Spree Thunderheart
I do find it curious however that some people said that they would be interested in gaming the new FR if it was a new campaign setting. To me, it is a new setting. It just has some familiar elements to Eds FR. If it sounds interesting why not try it out.
I would really only be interested in this new setting if it didn't try to pass itself off as the Realms. At all.
Why?
Because I like a wide variety of settings. For example, I'm interested in many of the 4E "core" ideas. But that doesn't mean I appreciate it when a setting I know and love is totally changed around into something it's not (and you can't argue that the design principles for the Realms haven't changed, either).
By design principals, you mean rules. Nobody’s arguing that point. But if you mean the flavor of the setting, then no I don't think it’s changed. The Realms are still going to be high fantasy, magic is still going to be a big part of the land, gods are still real "bodies" and not just concepts, the Realms still has a vast history, and so on.
Now if Wizards were to make it so magic was hard to come by, AO banned the gods from ever interfering with the land of Faerûn, or have the land of Tymanther replace Unther with no signs that Unther or the Imaskari ever existed. Then I would say that the Realms were not the Realms anymore.
Anyway, back onto the main topic. The positives I see are:
-Advancing the timeline to where the Forgotten Realms are actually Forgotten again. There are new lands to be explored with new stories to be told.
-The Epic NPC’s are gone. Yep, you can throw me into that category of people that thought this was the biggest weakness of the Realms. In my gaming sessions, I would always try to avoid the Sword Coast or the Heartlands because there were so many high level NPC’s there. I never once in my campaigns had any well established NPC make a “cameo” in my games let alone a big roll in them. I like it where it is up to my group to be the hero’s because if they did not do anything, that nobody else would. Now I won’t have to avoid any part of Faerûn.
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Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2008 : 19:45:21
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Again, I repeat myself...the world is, has been, and will always be what you make of it... if you don't wanna use the big guns, don't use them... it may be a little rude, but the truth is: "If you cannot create adventures without the big characters, and fear that they will steal the PCs' spotlight, you have a very very very narrow imagination..."
Sorry, but there it is... (well, actually, I'm not sorry) |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2008 : 22:39:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Spree Thunderheart
By design principals, you mean rules.
Actually no, that's not what I meant at all. Why did you assume I meant rules?
I said design principles--that's something totally different. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 21 Jan 2008 23:27:01 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2008 : 22:41:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Again, I repeat myself...the world is, has been, and will always be what you make of it... if you don't wanna use the big guns, don't use them... it may be a little rude, but the truth is: "If you cannot create adventures without the big characters, and fear that they will steal the PCs' spotlight, you have a very very very narrow imagination..."
Sorry, but there it is... (well, actually, I'm not sorry)
Agreed.
One "positive" that I've seen (though again, you could say it doesn't matter unless you feel bound to what's "canon") is that the designers are intending to hold back on RSEs for a while. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2008 : 22:53:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Again, I repeat myself...the world is, has been, and will always be what you make of it... if you don't wanna use the big guns, don't use them... it may be a little rude, but the truth is: "If you cannot create adventures without the big characters, and fear that they will steal the PCs' spotlight, you have a very very very narrow imagination..."
Sorry, but there it is... (well, actually, I'm not sorry)
Agreed.
One "positive" that I've seen (though again, you could say it doesn't matter unless you feel bound to what's "canon") is that the designers are intending to hold back on RSEs for a while.
They said the same thing about 3E. And how long did that promise last?  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Spree Thunderheart
Acolyte
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2008 : 22:57:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Again, I repeat myself...the world is, has been, and will always be what you make of it... if you don't wanna use the big guns, don't use them... it may be a little rude, but the truth is: "If you cannot create adventures without the big characters, and fear that they will steal the PCs' spotlight, you have a very very very narrow imagination..."
Sorry, but there it is... (well, actually, I'm not sorry)
 lol, now I got a good chuckle from that. As far as your first comment about the world being what you make of it and not using the "Big Guns”, that is what I am doing. As far as having a very very very (three very’s, that’s a lot) narrow imagination, how do you consider using my own NPC or NPC that are less known less imaginative then using someone elses characters that have been flushed out over five to twenty novels. Next thing you’re going to tell me is that I have a very very very VERY VERY (that’s even more verys) narrow imagination for never creating my own dark elf character that has rejected his evil race and escaped the underdark and wields two scimitars.
If your going to insult me, insult me on my spelling or grammar, there’s a good run-on-sentence above or I might misspell Molorand. Or maybe insult me on my lack of Realms lore; I might one day say that Cadderly was a Chosen of Mystra. But if you’re going to throw insults, at least have them make sense.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2008 : 23:19:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Spree Thunderheart As far as having a very very very (three very’s, that’s a lot) narrow imagination, how do you consider using my own NPC or NPC that are less known less imaginative then using someone elses characters that have been flushed out over five to twenty novels.
I think that's a fine idea. Although, I've also said in the past that it's just as possible for a DM's particular NPC to "steal the spotlight" as it's possible for a well-known official character to do that.
The point being, spotlight-stealing by an NPC is the fault of the DM, not the character. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2008 : 23:21:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Again, I repeat myself...the world is, has been, and will always be what you make of it... if you don't wanna use the big guns, don't use them... it may be a little rude, but the truth is: "If you cannot create adventures without the big characters, and fear that they will steal the PCs' spotlight, you have a very very very narrow imagination..."
Sorry, but there it is... (well, actually, I'm not sorry)
Agreed.
One "positive" that I've seen (though again, you could say it doesn't matter unless you feel bound to what's "canon") is that the designers are intending to hold back on RSEs for a while.
They said the same thing about 3E. And how long did that promise last?
Well yes, it's possible that they'll start rolling out the RSEs really soon. But going by what they've said on the subject so far, I think I'll consider it a "positive" for the time being. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2008 : 23:51:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Again, I repeat myself...the world is, has been, and will always be what you make of it... if you don't wanna use the big guns, don't use them... it may be a little rude, but the truth is: "If you cannot create adventures without the big characters, and fear that they will steal the PCs' spotlight, you have a very very very narrow imagination..."
Sorry, but there it is... (well, actually, I'm not sorry)
Agreed.
One "positive" that I've seen (though again, you could say it doesn't matter unless you feel bound to what's "canon") is that the designers are intending to hold back on RSEs for a while.
They said the same thing about 3E. And how long did that promise last?
Well yes, it's possible that they'll start rolling out the RSEs really soon. But going by what they've said on the subject so far, I think I'll consider it a "positive" for the time being.
Unless profits go up after 4e, if they do the RSE's will come even faster and bigger.....
I can see them justify it now , " if 104 year jump netted 4%, just imagine what 5e will dp wih it's 1261 year jump! Cha Ching!
Or if sales lag....."I told you e idn't go far enough! The fans are waiting for us to finish what we started, now get out there and Shake those Realms!! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2008 : 00:17:02
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| Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm totally aware of the fact that they are utilizing an RSE to get to this point. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Theophilus
Learned Scribe
Australia
143 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2008 : 05:45:06
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| I'll posit my own RSE for 4th ed - civil war between the Sembian/Anauroch factions of Shade |
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TwigB
Acolyte
South Africa
46 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2008 : 12:26:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Again, I repeat myself...the world is, has been, and will always be what you make of it... if you don't wanna use the big guns, don't use them... it may be a little rude, but the truth is: "If you cannot create adventures without the big characters, and fear that they will steal the PCs' spotlight, you have a very very very narrow imagination..."
Sorry, but there it is... (well, actually, I'm not sorry)
Sigh...I really despise sounding like a broken record, but the purpose of this thread was to focus on the positive things regarding the new realms. So far only a few have come on and shown their support. Spree, Ozzalum, Hammer of Moradin, thanks for the support and you posted some really nice ideas.
Mace...do you resent the fact that people are excited about the realms. All your posts are in opposition of what this thread is about. I did not come on to your myriad of anti 4th Ed threads and began spouting my views, I simply decided to make my own little corner where the few of us who support the new realms can post our ideas.
I, for one, LIKE sticking to canon. I don't LIKE changing the realms on a whim, I LIKE playing in the gray areas, and contrary to what you might think, I've always enjoyed myself playing this way . Calling us narrow minded just because our play style differs from yours is not very tolerant. If your only intentions are to nay-say our ideas and play styles then please refrain from posting in this thread... |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2008 : 17:36:36
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| You forgot me, I DID post something positive about the 4E Realms. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2008 : 17:39:32
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| To be honest, you may want to begin a new thread with a less provoking title, and begin with a new first post that does not call names or otherwise cause people who are upset by the changes feel attacked. There will probably still be one or two people who will post negative responses, but that is life. I would name it something like "Positive views of the 4e Realms" and then start by listing some of the things that you see as positive for the 4e Realms, and why. Anyway you look at it, people are going to disagree with you, and sometimes you just have to ignore them. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2008 : 17:48:53
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| I agree. And remember, it's not like everyone who will look at this thread has seen it already. A newcomer might read your first post, for the first time, and you have angry people all over again. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2008 : 18:00:16
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
To be honest, you may want to begin a new thread with a less provoking title, and begin with a new first post that does not call names or otherwise cause people who are upset by the changes feel attacked. There will probably still be one or two people who will post negative responses, but that is life. I would name it something like "Positive views of the 4e Realms" and then start by listing some of the things that you see as positive for the 4e Realms, and why. Anyway you look at it, people are going to disagree with you, and sometimes you just have to ignore them.
Indeed. The title, in particular, implies that the anti-Sellplague crowd is against any change. That's not true. Many of us not only see a need for change, we like many of the things that have changed over the years. It's just that the Sellplague is too much change for a lot of people. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Spree Thunderheart
Acolyte
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2008 : 18:03:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Spree Thunderheart As far as having a very very very (three very’s, that’s a lot) narrow imagination, how do you consider using my own NPC or NPC that are less known less imaginative then using someone elses characters that have been flushed out over five to twenty novels.
I think that's a fine idea. Although, I've also said in the past that it's just as possible for a DM's particular NPC to "steal the spotlight" as it's possible for a well-known official character to do that.
The point being, spotlight-stealing by an NPC is the fault of the DM, not the character.
I agree, that’s why I don't have any high epic level NPC's (or DMPC's for that matter) or any of the Realms epic level Chosen in my campaigns. |
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Ozzalum
Learned Scribe
USA
277 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2008 : 18:35:30
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quote:
Indeed. The title, in particular, implies that the anti-Sellplague crowd is against any change. That's not true. Many of us not only see a need for change, we like many of the things that have changed over the years. It's just that the Sellplague is too much change for a lot of people.
Well, there you go TwigB. If you start a new thread maybe we can put all this behind us. It is the nature of this medium that your initial offense is remembered but your apology is easily missed/forgotten.
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Spree Thunderheart
Acolyte
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2008 : 18:50:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
To be honest, you may want to begin a new thread with a less provoking title, and begin with a new first post that does not call names or otherwise cause people who are upset by the changes feel attacked. There will probably still be one or two people who will post negative responses, but that is life. I would name it something like "Positive views of the 4e Realms" and then start by listing some of the things that you see as positive for the 4e Realms, and why. Anyway you look at it, people are going to disagree with you, and sometimes you just have to ignore them.
Indeed. The title, in particular, implies that the anti-Sellplague crowd is against any change. That's not true. Many of us not only see a need for change, we like many of the things that have changed over the years. It's just that the Sellplague is too much change for a lot of people.
No offense, but I do think it is really ironic that you all are up in arms about the words "hater" and "change" when this active pole has both (well it has the word hate, not hater) in option 1 and it’s winning with 46% of the vote.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10067
Maybe someone should tell HawkinstheDM to rephrase his poll also.
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Caedwyr
Seeker
87 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2008 : 20:31:21
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I am looking forward to 4e, as the changes they've mentioned with regards to gods just being high level monsters means that it will be much easier to form a raiding guild and kill some gods for fame, glory, and loot. With the web-based gaming table this is made even easier.
So, any suggestions on the dkp system? Traditional kill value open-ended systems, zero-sum systems, loot council, or others?
Seriously though, I can see some of their thinking here that things like this might appeal to some of the MMO crowd and hopefully provide new people to play the game. I'm very doubtful as to how effective it will be, but that remains to be seen. |
Edited by - Caedwyr on 22 Jan 2008 20:42:38 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2008 : 21:08:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Spree Thunderheart
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
To be honest, you may want to begin a new thread with a less provoking title, and begin with a new first post that does not call names or otherwise cause people who are upset by the changes feel attacked. There will probably still be one or two people who will post negative responses, but that is life. I would name it something like "Positive views of the 4e Realms" and then start by listing some of the things that you see as positive for the 4e Realms, and why. Anyway you look at it, people are going to disagree with you, and sometimes you just have to ignore them.
Indeed. The title, in particular, implies that the anti-Sellplague crowd is against any change. That's not true. Many of us not only see a need for change, we like many of the things that have changed over the years. It's just that the Sellplague is too much change for a lot of people.
No offense, but I do think it is really ironic that you all are up in arms about the words "hater" and "change" when this active pole has both (well it has the word hate, not hater) in option 1 and it’s winning with 46% of the vote.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10067
Maybe someone should tell HawkinstheDM to rephrase his poll also.
No one is up in arms over the word "change" -- we're simply saying it could be better utilized. And "hater" is a label. A person saying they hate something is considerably more acceptable than another person labeling them a hater. On the poll you link to, a very strong dislike of the specific named changes is a viable response -- so I see no need for it to be reworded. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2008 : 21:22:43
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to claim people here are up in arms over the use of the words "change and hater" is a blatant Mis-characterization of a valid arguement. It is the same type of tactic as labeling people thru name calling. It is a feeble attempt by a angry people to discredit people in order to invalidate their opinion. It is a tactic of oppression as old as any and is used to crush civil discourse.
As someone who comes from a long lineage of freedom fighters(the house I grew up in was a stop on the Underground Railroad during the US Civil War, my family risked all to end the minimalising and labeling of people) against oppresion of all types I am tiring of This Name Calling Tactic.
It needs to stop. It does not belong here in these halls of knowledge of all.
I would love to see this thread fall by the wayside, and it bad feel with it! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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TwigB
Acolyte
South Africa
46 Posts |
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Spree Thunderheart
Acolyte
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2008 : 21:40:52
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quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
to claim people here are up in arms over the use of the words "change and hater" is a blatant Mis-characterization of a valid arguement. It is the same type of tactic as labeling people thru name calling. It is a feeble attempt by a angry people to discredit people in order to invalidate their opinion. It is a tactic of oppression as old as any and is used to crush civil discourse.
As someone who comes from a long lineage of freedom fighters(the house I grew up in was a stop on the Underground Railroad during the US Civil War, my family risked all to end the minimalising and labeling of people) against oppresion of all types I am tiring of This Name Calling Tactic.
It needs to stop. It does not belong here in these halls of knowledge of all.
I would love to see this thread fall by the wayside, and it bad feel with it!
Where were you when Mace said I had a "very very very narrow imagination"? |
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Say "yes to change!"-- The anti-rant!
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