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Caedwyr
Seeker
87 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Jan 2008 : 01:37:55
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Sure, I know about the formation of Evermeet and some of the major magical reshaping the world events, but you can't really 'chuck natural geology out of the window'. As soon as the unnatural? events stop, the existing systems take over. Also, tectonics is more than just volcanoes and earthquakes, so I was hoping for a little more info.
@Blueblade: I'd be very interested in hearing/reading some of that talk/information. The construction of internally consistent worlds/universes/fictions (to borrow a Spider Robinson term) is a favourite passtime and I love reading about well done examples. |
Edited by - Caedwyr on 31 Jan 2008 01:51:55 |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2008 : 10:42:04
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Well here's the low down on the "spellplague" before it even was the "spellplague" from Ed himself. Given that the 100 year jump and the Abeir returning thingies are now in the public domain, this post isn't spoiling anything and I thought that the wider forum community might appreciate the insight.
There are actually THREE references, all of which will
really only be understandable "after the fact." One of
them is the "Smashed the black star" curiosity that
several scribes have been so fascinated by, and
another is a CYCLOPEDIA heading (yes, just the
heading). [Ed was referring to the "Abeir-Toril" heading]
The third, "main" reference is on page 40 of the DM'S
SOURCEBOOK, referring to Mellomir's claim of finding
an "ancient" and "magical" treasure in the vicinity of
the Haunted Halls. The dwarves vanishing over the
years were fleeing the Realms through gates (portals,
linking to other worlds / alternate Prime Material
Planes) that are not in the Haunted Halls, but can be
reached through the Halls (I think the maps I gave you
at GenCon included the "Whisper's Crypt" level, yes?).
The dwarves were departing to avoid the coming
Spellplague, and the monsters and adventurers
vanishing into and emerging from the Halls were also
using the gates.
The original text of this entry had Mellomir referring
to an unspecified "message of fire."
The original turnover of FR1 THE HAUNTED HALLS OF
EVENINGSTAR included a magical "message" formed by
flames dancing in midair that briefly appeared to
anyone entering the many-pillared room of Encounter
31, that said this: "A great storm of magic is coming,
that will twist or maim many. Beware the Black Star."
It was edited out because the TSR designers of the day
thought it too substantial to print without providing
something of an explanation (that there was no
wordcount left in the module to provide, and that
would open a can of worms they wanted to avoid). This
same message appears in front of the gates used the
dwarves, monsters, and adventurers, whenever they are
approached from the "Realms" side.
So there you have it. Too mangled and chopped-down for
anyone studying the Old Grey Box to recognize without
this explanation. Sorry. I DID warn everyone it would
be nigh-impossible to spot, beforehand.
By the way, there's something else in FR0 tied to
this: Sabirine's Specular. A Spell Engine provides a
tiny "shelter" from Spellplague effects around itself,
and Sabirine chose to die rather than embrace lichdom
because she didn't want to endure years of undeath
only to be swept away in the Spellplague, or twisted
and maimed and left in a world ravaged by the
Spellplague.
The Spellplague term isn't mine (I called it "the
Doom," or "the Coming of the Black Star" or "THE
Spellstorm"), and I always intended this to be a
mythical always-in-the-future bogey-tale.
There you have it.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Bakra
Senior Scribe
628 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2008 : 13:57:28
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Thanks George and Ed for this juicy bit of information!
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I hope Candlekeep continues to be the friendly forum of fellow Realms-lovers that it has always been, as we all go through this together. If you don’t want to move to the “new” Realms, that doesn’t mean there’s anything wrong with either you or the “old” Realms. Goodness knows Candlekeep, and the hearts of its scribes, are both big enough to accommodate both. If we want them to be.
(Strikes dramatic pose, raises sword to gleam in the sunset, and hopes breeches won’t fall down.)
Enough for now. The Realms lives! I have spoken! Ale and light wines half price, served by a smiling Storm Silverhand fetchingly clad in thigh-high boots and naught else! Ahem . .
So saith Ed. <snip>
love to all,
THO
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AlorinDawn
Learned Scribe
USA
313 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2008 : 14:17:03
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George & Ed... Wow and thank you.
Perhaps I need to step back and re-evaluate my stance on Realms literature. I'm finding myself guilty of snobbery when it comes to Realms information that doesn't come from the few writers whom I feel care deeply and "get" the Realms (my opinion).
Ed,
I'm going to take a "wild stab" here and guess that if you decided to implement the Spellplague it would not have included a bunch of deities dying in cheap soap opera episode nor the removal of the weave as we know it. Can you comment on this at all?
Do you ever make it to Origins?
Thanks |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2008 : 15:50:00
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Hello, all. I had a chance to chat briefly on the phone with Ed last night (horrible ice storm and windstorm pounding his neck of the woods), and he indicated his responses to this, from Charles Phipps: "Hey Ed, are the Triad worshiped more like their own separate pantheon and/or as a single religion or do people tend to worship the gods separately but allied?
Also, just as a purely fun question, are Tyrites and the like more conservative regarding the bedroom than average Faeruners?"
Here's my paraphrase of Ed's reply:
Most people tend to worship the deities separately, but consider them (and their priests) as allies, and turn to such allies when in need. Some priests (of these deities) point to the common beliefs and tenets among the Triad as proof that these faiths are "right" or "more correct than others," but worship is always considered to be best done on a personal, specific basis; unless you are desperate and calling out to "whatever gods there be!" for aid, worship "counts" most when it's directed at a specific deity.
As for your purely fun question: any answer will of course be a gross generalization. Ed believes a desire for privacy (as opposed to exhibitionism or public displays of affection) will be strong, as will a tendency towards discipline (though this may in individual cases manifest as self-control of one's body rather than necessarily binding, flogging, or physically dominating others). Ed wouldn't go farther than that, saying: Human nature responds to restrictions by flouting them, so what goes on in bedchambers of rule-followers may surprise others.
So saith Ed, filtered through me. 
love to all,
THO |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2008 : 16:36:04
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Well here's the low down on the "spellplague" before it even was the "spellplague" from Ed himself. Given that the 100 year jump and the Abeir returning thingies are now in the public domain, this post isn't spoiling anything and I thought that the wider forum community might appreciate the insight.
There are actually THREE references, all of which will
really only be understandable "after the fact." One of
them is the "Smashed the black star" curiosity that
several scribes have been so fascinated by, and
another is a CYCLOPEDIA heading (yes, just the
heading). [Ed was referring to the "Abeir-Toril" heading]
The third, "main" reference is on page 40 of the DM'S
SOURCEBOOK, referring to Mellomir's claim of finding
an "ancient" and "magical" treasure in the vicinity of
the Haunted Halls. The dwarves vanishing over the
years were fleeing the Realms through gates (portals,
linking to other worlds / alternate Prime Material
Planes) that are not in the Haunted Halls, but can be
reached through the Halls (I think the maps I gave you
at GenCon included the "Whisper's Crypt" level, yes?).
The dwarves were departing to avoid the coming
Spellplague, and the monsters and adventurers
vanishing into and emerging from the Halls were also
using the gates.
The original text of this entry had Mellomir referring
to an unspecified "message of fire."
The original turnover of FR1 THE HAUNTED HALLS OF
EVENINGSTAR included a magical "message" formed by
flames dancing in midair that briefly appeared to
anyone entering the many-pillared room of Encounter
31, that said this: "A great storm of magic is coming,
that will twist or maim many. Beware the Black Star."
It was edited out because the TSR designers of the day
thought it too substantial to print without providing
something of an explanation (that there was no
wordcount left in the module to provide, and that
would open a can of worms they wanted to avoid). This
same message appears in front of the gates used the
dwarves, monsters, and adventurers, whenever they are
approached from the "Realms" side.
So there you have it. Too mangled and chopped-down for
anyone studying the Old Grey Box to recognize without
this explanation. Sorry. I DID warn everyone it would
be nigh-impossible to spot, beforehand.
By the way, there's something else in FR0 tied to
this: Sabirine's Specular. A Spell Engine provides a
tiny "shelter" from Spellplague effects around itself,
and Sabirine chose to die rather than embrace lichdom
because she didn't want to endure years of undeath
only to be swept away in the Spellplague, or twisted
and maimed and left in a world ravaged by the
Spellplague.
The Spellplague term isn't mine (I called it "the
Doom," or "the Coming of the Black Star" or "THE
Spellstorm"), and I always intended this to be a
mythical always-in-the-future bogey-tale.
There you have it.
-- George Krashos
-So did Ed always intend for a major disaster to happen to the Realms? And is this WotC's way of implementing it?
Very interesting. Is Abeir where the Imaskari got their slaves from? |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2008 : 17:14:00
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Well here's the low down on the "spellplague" before it even was the "spellplague" from Ed himself.
the Abeir returning
Thanks George this is very interesting:
20 year ago a bright eyed youth buys the OGBS and reads the clack and notices two things that interest him and seem to be linked:
Marchayn the mad witch is slain, babbling
Dove Dove smashed the Black Star, Dove... (not that I knew who Dove was at the time, even when I saw her entry in the book  )
and The Netyarch sends agents out into the Realms to find black gems for unknown magical or religious use
So being that naive bright eyed youth and putting 2 and 2 together (making 17 probably ) I assumed these are linked because I assumed that because the Star was smashed it must be made of glass or crystal or a maybe its a gemstone and this powerful wizrd/priest of some far off land that is not even on the map wants them - AHA he is some sort of powerful Thoth-AMon type of wizard/priest who is involved in Necromancy and Summoning of Demons etc, right I have something for the players to aim for..... (and as yet they have never got there)
Fast forward 20 years and the information that Ed had already presaged the coming of the 'Spellplague' and that it was in the OGBS. So being a novice seeker I go back and read through both of the books TWICE and see no mention of Mystra dying, the weave going bang or wizards going mad by the hundreds and thousands, but just this little piece about one Witch going mad after Dove (who I now know and understand better and realise what she does and why) smashed something, and for Dove to directly be involved means something important.
Black Star? black=night=Shar?
How about the King Killer Star that drives Dragons into their rages
How about the star that created Mistledale and destroyed Uvaraen (sp?)
Stars that create chaos and destruction and madness (hmmm that sounds like the Spellplague)
hmmm stars stars stars and Mystra's symbol is a star! so could this be the spellplague link? Anyhoo I could never figure it out as there was no further Lore to go on, so I put it on the back burner to come back to later (probably when 4E revealed the 'truth').
Thanks George for your post it has really helped to get one 'must find out and/or write my own back story for this piece of missing Lore' resolved.
Just a quick question, can a kindly sage point me to the direction of what George means about the Abeirs returning? Have seen the new article now
Thanks
Damian
ps off course if TSR had actually put out a more expansive HHoE product I would have made the link 15 years ago or so between Marchayn and Stars and Dove and the end of the world. George can I say you are one very lucky chap to have your copy of the HH that Ed gave you, am chuffed for you |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
Edited by - crazedventurers on 31 Jan 2008 19:12:54 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2008 : 17:14:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
-So did Ed always intend for a major disaster to happen to the Realms? And is this WotC's way of implementing it?
I don't think so... Reread the last part:
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I always intended this to be a mythical always-in-the-future bogey-tale.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2008 : 17:35:44
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quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
hmmm stars stars stars and Mystra's symbol is a star! so could this be the spellplague link? Anyhoo I could never figure it out as there was no further Lore to go on, so I put it on the back burner to come back to later (probably when 4E revealed the 'truth').
Cyric is also called the "Dark Sun" and the "Black Sun," and a the sun is a star, so it could be a reference to his assassination of Mystra as well. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2008 : 18:40:41
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
[Cyric is also called the "Dark Sun" and the "Black Sun," and a the sun is a star, so it could be a reference to his assassination of Mystra as well.
Excellent spot Hawks  , Cyric never occured to me.
nice one
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2008 : 19:04:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
-So did Ed always intend for a major disaster to happen to the Realms? And is this WotC's way of implementing it?
I don't think so... Reread the last part:
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I always intended this to be a mythical always-in-the-future bogey-tale.
-But the possiblity was and still there, right. The lore is there that now supports it. I now have no problem whatso ever about the spellplague. Its the 100yr time jump I dont care for. |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2008 : 19:12:09
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| Of course, I am pretty sure that Cyric wasn't even a figment in Ed's imagination when HHoE or the Grey Box were written. I am pretty sure Cyric is a creation of TSR marketing for the Avatar Trilogy. |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2008 : 19:14:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Apex
Of course, I am pretty sure that Cyric wasn't even a figment in Ed's imagination when HHoE or the Grey Box were written. I am pretty sure Cyric is a creation of TSR marketing for the Avatar Trilogy.
Off course he is, but we are being diligent scribes and back filling the gaps and contradictions in Lore as best we can :)
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2008 : 19:19:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
-So did Ed always intend for a major disaster to happen to the Realms? And is this WotC's way of implementing it?
I don't think so... Reread the last part:
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I always intended this to be a mythical always-in-the-future bogey-tale.
-But the possiblity was and still there, right. The lore is there that now supports it. I now have no problem whatso ever about the spellplague. Its the 100yr time jump I dont care for.
I would argue that "mythical" and "always-in-the-future" meant it was something that Ed never actually planned to have happen... Especially since the particular references in the Old Grey Box had asterisks, and it was specified that "News reports that will NOT ever have follow-up in the published Realms material are marked with a (*)." (page 36 of the DM's Sourcebook of the Realms). The fact that Ed does not seem to be a fan of RSEs would further indicate that this was never anything approaching a concrete plan of his, but rather a mythical doomsday. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6666 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2008 : 20:52:01
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Whilst I will let the great man respond himself in good time, it's clear that he built into the Realms (from the very, very beginning) a few reset buttons that would assist and help justify sweeping changes to his campaign (which naturally became available to all of us when the Realms became a published campaign setting). Obviously these reset buttons suited Ed and allowed him flexibility with regard to his own DM-ing and campaign for the benefit of his players.
The ToT (maligned by many), a 'gods reset' was noted in Ed's DRAGON articles on the gods of FR before there even was a published FR campaign setting. Similarly, as we can now see, the 'magic reset' was also in place. Just makes you wonder how many more of these little dangling campaign erasers Ed has left us over the years, of which we are none the wiser ...
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 00:13:30
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Whilst I will let the great man respond himself in good time, it's clear that he built into the Realms (from the very, very beginning) a few reset buttons that would assist and help justify sweeping changes to his campaign (which naturally became available to all of us when the Realms became a published campaign setting). Obviously these reset buttons suited Ed and allowed him flexibility with regard to his own DM-ing and campaign for the benefit of his players.
The ToT (maligned by many), a 'gods reset' was noted in Ed's DRAGON articles on the gods of FR before there even was a published FR campaign setting. Similarly, as we can now see, the 'magic reset' was also in place. Just makes you wonder how many more of these little dangling campaign erasers Ed has left us over the years, of which we are none the wiser ...
-- George Krashos
A helpful insight, and thank you for it George. The way I look at it, I am alright with the murder of Mystra and the Spellplague. I do not like them, but I understand how WotC might see that them as needed. However, it is all of the gobbledegook about having Halruaa explode, the Sea of Fallen Stars be drained, a whimsical and illogical soap opera of Tyr, Tymora and Helm, retconning racial deities into aspects of human deities (Rich has alluded to Talos as an aspect of Gruumsh and Sehanine Moonbow as an aspect of Selűne), the chopping of the overall pantheon to about 13-20% of its size, the 104 year time jump and similar such things. So, pretty much, I can handle the reset button, but I abhor what they decided to do after they pushed it. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 00:15:17
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I have been reading through the OGBS after Krash posted the answer to the ‘Spellplague Riddle’ and I have a couple of questions.
ONE
It is stated that that the Cormyte and Sembian ports as well as the Dragon Reach are frozen in during the winter; I would assume that the River Lis does the same? If so I am wondering if the ice is thick enough to allow passage from the North-western Vast to the Eastern Dales/Moonsea central via the Lis? If so has any entrepreneurial types tried to ski/sledge/walk across in order to be the first trade caravan of the new year etc? or are the conditions that bad to make travel almost impossible?
TWO
Temmi Dharimm a well known bandit has an interesting collection of monsters with him (3 dire wolves, 2 disenchanters and 6 bloodhawks). Can Ed shed some light on how he keeps them loyal? Wild talent/psionic power, or has he raised them from young and they follow him about believing him to be their mother/father? I am guessing that he must exercise some mental control over them to get them to work and be effective? Just curious
Thanks
Damian
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So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 01:02:34
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A Long Cormyr Question trying to gauge the 'New' Cormyr under Alusair and Caldnei and its relationship with Churches.
How active would the new regime be in dealing with suspicious religious matters bought to their attention? specifically this:
After the Ghazneth/Death Dragon war Cormyr’s military might is depleted, so the majority of troops are pulled out of Eagles Peak, Greatgaunt, Skull Crag and Horn Shield et al to fortify High Horn and replace losses at Arabel etc. and the flourishing Temple of Torm in Eagles Peak is given the Crown charter to patrol the lands and enforce the Steel Regents will and Cormyrian Law.
Some time later a crown chartered adventuring company is sent to Eagles Peak to assist the Tormites in protecting western Cormyr and dealing with the Zhent sponsored Tuns and other bandits in the area. The adventurers find out that the Tormites are acting in ways that might cause problems if more fully known and they may be acting against the doctrines of Torm and the orders of the Crown, that is:
They are targeting only certain Tun tribes/bandit gangs and are killing everyone, and actively pursuing any that get away to ensure total annihilation of that tribe/gang and leaving other tribes/gangs untouched.
They are aggressively supporting other Tun tribes/gangs in their own battles across the Tun plains (providing healing, weapons training and intelligence etc).
That priests who have spoken out about this have been imprisoned/exposed as heretics/cast out or executed by the senior clergy.
That known Zhent caravans have been allowed to travel through the Tun to trade with the favoured tribes and have not been stopped entering the Storm Horns to trade with the mountain towns of Cormyr.
That Priests of Bane have been allowed to practice their religion and convert bandits and Tun alike.
That the church of Torm might actually be corrupted by the Zhents?
I know this is an extreme example but am hoping that because it is so extreme it makes the answers easier?
Does the Crown take action? I assume they would with war wizards (and probably Harpers?) first to ascertain the truth and if the tales proved to be true would the Crown then mount actions to resolve the issue of the corruption or do they leave this to the internal systems with the Church?
Would they send a delegation to Torm’s Temple in Tantras for instance to inform them of the corruption? If they did and the Tantrans demanded the right to resolve this, would Cormyr allow this? Would they let a Torm led Tantran army land and walk through Cormyr to get to Eagles Peak and besiege the Citadel of the Rampant Eagle?
If the Crown will not take direct action will they take indirect action to weaken the position of Eagles Peak? For instance by sealing off the road past High Horn stopping trade going out to Eagles Peak? Would they remove the townsfolk by words initially and by force if necessary? Would they proclaim what has happened to the country at large and get the people’s support and let them decide on their own not to trade with Eagles Peak/leave Eagles Peak etc?
Or would they take no action at all and leave the problem to sort itself out (or be sorted by Harpers?) because of agreements and laws that were made in the past with the Churches that are allowed to practice in Cormyr?
Am wondering how vigilant and active the Crown generally are in religious matters. Whether there are agreements in place to limit the Crown power over the churches that do exist. And how the new regime see their role in protecting Cormyr and how aggressively they would pursue their aims to ensure a safe and peaceful Cormyr?
Thanks
Damian
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So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 16:44:14
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Hello, all. I bring you Ed’s latest Realmslore replies, this time to two recent queries from crazedventurers: “I have been reading through the OGBS after Krash posted the answer to the ‘Spellplague Riddle’ and I have a couple of questions.
ONE
It is stated that that the Cormyte and Sembian ports as well as the Dragon Reach are frozen in during the winter; I would assume that the River Lis does the same? If so I am wondering if the ice is thick enough to allow passage from the North-western Vast to the Eastern Dales/Moonsea central via the Lis? If so has any entrepreneurial types tried to ski/sledge/walk across in order to be the first trade caravan of the new year etc? or are the conditions that bad to make travel almost impossible?
TWO
Temmi Dharimm a well known bandit has an interesting collection of monsters with him (3 dire wolves, 2 disenchanters and 6 bloodhawks). Can Ed shed some light on how he keeps them loyal? Wild talent/psionic power, or has he raised them from young and they follow him about believing him to be their mother/father? I am guessing that he must exercise some mental control over them to get them to work and be effective? Just curious, Thanks, Damian”
Ed replies:
ONE
Yes, the River Lis is frozen over, for the greater part of most winters. It’s a series of shallow brackish channels, sandbars, and marsh plants for much of its run, and can easily be traversed by lone humans (and smaller humanoids) afoot, dragging sledges or just packs behind them on lines so as to distribute the weight (mules with “snowshoes” fitted and some magical means of calming them to keep them from kicking wildly, falling, and breaking legs at the sensation of having big dinnerplate-things strapped to their feet, and slipping constantly, can also be used, kept on long reins or “lead lines” to keep them from wandering, but horses and suchlike are usually too heavy; plate armor should be doffed and dragged, not worn).
However, this works for intrepid peddlers and small bands of adventurers, NOT for caravans. The problem is that the eastern bank of the Lis is treacherous brackish (to freshwater, as one moves farther east) swamp with lots of decay and therefore “marsh gas” bubbling up (heat due to vegetative rotting), and there are many places in that swamp that either don’t freeze over, or that freeze over with very thin “crackle ice” that won’t support anything heavier than a bunny or large carrion bird).
So a caravan would get bogged down in that trackless swampland, and swooped upon by hungry winter predators of all sorts (wyverns and peryton, for example). A walker controlling a Tenser’s Floating Disc would have no problem, but assembling and persuading a group of wizards to do anything so dangerous as a caravan stroll in severe winter weather is harder than it sounds. Some winters they could make big coin carrying the right goods, yes, so it might be worth doing.
TWO
Yes, Temmi does indeed have a “wild talent” that allows for ongoing mental communication (and domination, akin in force to “suggestion” spells) with other creatures. He has reared (and nursed, when injured) most of the creatures who “stick with him,” and deep trust and friendships have developed, so they form a team with mutual loyalty. It’s probably best to view Temmi as the “leader of the pack.”
Great questions, Damian! Perfect in scope for this thread.
So saith Ed, and I echo him re. the scope of the queries. Sometimes Ed gets asked stuff that is so broad that it really requires a official written and designed WotC FR product to answer properly; these are “just right.”
love,
THO
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Edited by - The Hooded One on 01 Feb 2008 16:47:33 |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 17:51:26
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Cormyr again (sorry)
I assume that the Starwater floods every winter due to rainfall, are they any specific points along its flow that are more at risk? (and do the war wizards do anything about it?)
And does the Thunderflow flood its banks? it seems the gap between the Thunderpeaks and the Wyvernwater is fairly small and the river does not appear (on the maps) to meander much like mature rivers do across their flood plain? Is the river fairly narrow in its 'scope' (i.e. it shoots down the mountain straight into a V shaped river valley and out into the lake?). Could Ed provide a description of what the'Thunder Vale' is like please? and any usual fauna or flora in the area?
I have in my notes that the river that joins the Thunderflow from the Hullack is called the Silver river - correct? or did I make that up myself?
And does the the Wyvernwater freeze in winter?
Thanks
Damian
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So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
Edited by - crazedventurers on 01 Feb 2008 18:16:21 |
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AlorinDawn
Learned Scribe
USA
313 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 21:03:25
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Ed & THO,
It's been a while since I've pstered you with a Loudwater/Delimbiyr question, so here'goes.
Can you describe the Delimbiyr as it passes through Loudwater? What is the average depth of the river and how wide is the river in this area?
Thanks |
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createvmind
Senior Scribe
490 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 21:31:31
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Add on to AlorinDawn question.
Any risk of swimming through Delimbiyr besides current and temperature? |
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BlackMoria
Acolyte
Canada
36 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2008 : 22:11:15
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George's posting of Ed comments concerning earlier references to the Spellplague seems to imply that *some* mortals knew of the coming of the Spellplague.
It is hinted in the Expedition to Undermountain that Halaster died doing some ritual to forestall the Spellplague.
So, questions for Ed. Who or whom knew about the Spellplague (such as who authored the message that greeted persons entering the room that George's post referred to)?
If certain mortals knew of the coming of the Spellplague, why did gods like Mystra (dies), Azuth and Savaras (dies) get blindsided, therefore, triggering the event?
Why were the Chosen blindsided? (it is hinted that most of the Chosen don't fare well or outright perish in the Spellplague)
I realize that Ed (who wouldn't have this event happen in his realms) may not have an answer on those, but will there be an answer of sorts forthcoming in the 4e FRCG or is this something that will be deliberately left unanswered?
I, for one, find it very odd that certain mortals knew of the coming of the Spellplague and that Mystra and Savaras ( god of divinition and prophecy!) didn't see this doom coming. |
Edited by - BlackMoria on 01 Feb 2008 22:14:04 |
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2008 : 06:51:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade
Hmmm. I seem to remember Ed answering a question about tectonics here at the Keep before (Kuje?), but that there are several outstanding queries about volcanoes still outstanding.
I also remember a GenCon seminar years ago (in the MECCA years in Milwaukee, pre-Midwest Express Center) where Ed detailed a lot of Realms geology and biology for some university profs in the audience, who I think were quite surprised at the extent of Ed's real-world knowledge in "their" fields. I remember him telling them: "I DO think about these things, you know. No rivers running uphill."
BB
Those who have surreptitiously glanced at the strictly forbidden lore in Volo's Guide to All Things Magical have whispered that Volo knows a remarkable amount of lore regarding gems, rocks, stones, and other natural materials of our world. Personally, I think he picked Elminster's pocket and made off with a notebook which the old wizard had been using to take notes about our world when he visited Ed some years ago.
But ... "What do I know?"
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2008 : 09:46:57
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quote:
Originally posted by crazedventurers
Cormyr again (sorry)
[...]
And does the the Wyvernwater freeze in winter?
Thanks
Damian
Great Cormyr questions, all! Hopefully Ed will be allowed to answer them. As you mentioned the Wyernwater I recalled (yet again) parts from 'Crown of Fire' and began to wonder whatever happened to the Wanton Wyvern? I could not find it being mentioned anywhere, not even in Volo's Guide to Cormyr?
Also, after watching a documentary about Alasca, I started wondering if there are any glaciers in Cormyr most likely in the Stormhorns and/or Thunder Peaks? (For the record: I have not yet checked any sourcebook on this.)
Maybe you, Ed or THO, can shed some light on those issues.
Thanks in advance. |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Kenzuki Shinku
Acolyte
USA
1 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2008 : 12:46:36
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Dear Mr. Greenwood.
First time poster here. I've a very important question that I've been wanting to ask, it's always nagged me and I would like an answer concering the Dead Three.
Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul. Were these their mortal names or did they change names on becoming deities? And what year did they ascend to godhood? If it's NDA I understand.
Thanks.
"Alis grave nil" |
Alis grave nil
Kenzuki Shinku. The Crimson Seraph, one of the Three Kings. |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2008 : 12:49:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
Also, after watching a documentary about Alasca, I started wondering if there are any glaciers in Cormyr most likely in the Stormhorns and/or Thunder Peaks? (For the record: I have not yet checked any sourcebook on this.)
Any mountain that is high enough and has precipitation in the form of snowfall therefore has the potential for glaciers regardless of latitude. So there might be glaciers of sorts in the Storm Horns and Thunder Peaks, but I would be suprised if they of the types found in Alaska, but perhaps similar ones that are in the Alps?
Nice question hopefully Ed can enlighten us more.
Damian
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So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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crazedventurers
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1073 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2008 : 12:59:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Kenzuki Shinku
Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul. Were these their mortal names or did they change names on becoming deities? And what year did they ascend to godhood? If it's NDA I understand.
Have you read Faiths and Avatars? - the 'Rolling the Bones' side piece?
something else that might help date their route to ascension is here
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20071107a&pf=true
debate has taken place that the 3 figures are Bane, Myrkul and Bhaal - there is a thread here that discusses this theory further
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=10224&SearchTerms=ironfang,keep
Hope this helps
Damian |
So saith Ed. I've never said he was sane, have I?
Gods, all this writing and he's running a constant fantasy version of Coronation Street in his head, too. .
shudder,
love to all,
THO
Candlekeep Forum 7 May 2005 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2008 : 13:53:16
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While Ed may have more to add... I have a few points I can add to this in the meantime.
quote:
Originally posted by Kenzuki Shinku
Dear Mr. Greenwood.
First time poster here. I've a very important question that I've been wanting to ask, it's always nagged me and I would like an answer concering the Dead Three.
Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul. Were these their mortal names or did they change names on becoming deities?
Ed, in Stormlight, suggested that Bane, who used to be a mortal before he ascended to godhood, might have been born on another world far different and far removed from Toril. "Bane" may have been his mortal name as well.
So given Bane's "mortal" origins, it's definitely an intriguing possibility.
On the other hand, Bane... or possibly a world-specific derivative, could've been a common name on the world from which Bane came from. After all, we do have plenty of examples of gods, in the Realms, who have retained their mortal names upon ascending to godhood -- Kelemvor and Cyric being the more obvious examples, and Velsharoon being another.
The ascension details, in Faiths & Avatars, surrounding Bane's rise as a god also seems to suggest that Bane was his name prior to becoming a god. Or, perhaps, this was merely the name Bane adopted upon arriving in the Realms... an indication, possibly, of seeing himself as the "ultimate tyrant" and "bane of all that is lawfully just."
quote:
And what year did they ascend to godhood? If it's NDA I understand.
The year of the Ascension of the Dark Three has never been specifically referenced.
We can't really provide a "rough" year either. Initial estimates suggest between 267 DR and 700 DR as the time of ascension for Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul.
Though... Lands of Intrigue notes that a young noble of Clan Fyrson, in -88 DR, was charged with worshipping the dark gods Bane and Myrkul. This tends to throw the above estimates out and suggests that Bane and Myrkul ascended earlier than 267 DR and after -339 DR which marks the Fall of Netheril.
Specifically, we can probably assume that this event occured sometime between -339 DR and -88 DR.
We also know that Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul likely slew Borem -- one of the Seven Lost Gods -- each seizing a portion of Borem's divine essence for themselves. This was, perhaps, shortly before they entered the Castle of Bone and confronted Jergal.
Faiths & Pantheons places the Lake of Boiling Mud's, which may have been the "avatar" of Borem, possible location on Mezeketh Isle -- two miles SW of Saerloon's harbor. It's also said that the Lake may have existed, during pre-Dale Reckoning, somewhere in Jhaamdath -- possibly in the vicinity of what would become Sembia. No specific dates are offered.
Jhaamdath "falls" in -255 DR. And Chondathan, which will eventually become Saerloon, was "properly" established between the 360's and 380's DR. 'Tis likely founded some time before that... given that Chondathan migrations across the Inner Sea to the lands of what will become Sembia, occur around the -200s DR.
Given the -339 DR starting point, and the details about the Lake possibly being located in pre-Dale Reckoning Jhaamdath, that could possibly narrow the period of Bane's ascension to between Netheril's Fall in -339 DR and the Fall of Jhaamdath in -255 DR.
Additionally, Eric offers this little tidbit...
"Implicit in your assumption is that the Lake of Burning Blood is a "real lake". I'd suggest that maybe it's a moveable lake (in other words, the lake is the "avatar" of Borem). Alternatively, it could be the lake is created by opening a blood-spewing portal. When the portal closes/moves, the lake drains away.
--Eric"
There's a few tidbits in Grand History as well but, again, nothing definitive.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 02 Feb 2008 13:56:17 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2008 : 17:41:56
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Hello again, all. This time I bring a brief Ed Realmslore response to scribe Asgetrion, who queried back at the beginning of January: “Can you give any details about heraldry in Sunset Vale? I was mainly thinking of Berdusk and Hill's Edge, but this prompts me also to ask whether small villages in the Realms use any sort of "badges" or "runes" or actual heraldry (i.e. Volo's Guide to the Sword Coast includes a drawing two swords on a shield, which seems to indicate that it is the Arms of Drawn Swords)?. What about the "First Folk" ("nobility") in Berdusk -- do they have family Coats-of-Arms and would they prefer more "eloquent" heraldry or badges to more practical ones?
Are the Coats-of-Arms presented in 'Power of Faerűn' just meant to be "flavour art" or are they "actual" heraldic devices in the Realms?”
Ed replies:
Both Berdusk and Hill’s Edge have their own coats of arms AND simplified badges derived from them; the former can be seen in the stone arches above city gates, and the latter on the breasts of surcoats worn by the gate guards and soldiery over their armor, and by envoys sent abroad by those cities.
I can’t readily find my heraldry file right now (it got moved months ago when I had to hastily find some of my drawings and send them off to certain designers), so I’m afraid I’ll have to provide details of the actual arms later.
Villages only tend to have blazons if they have a local “lord” (self-styled nobility or part of the nobles of a larger country); his or her arms are often simplified into a badge for use on gates, guards’ uniforms, the livery of his own servants, and way-markers. However, many inns have simplified badges (used on signposts and hung out over the street as a “beckoning board”), and these can be confused for heraldry of the village they happen to be situated in (that’s the Drawn Swords situation). Sometimes, long after the inn has burned down or otherwise disappeared, locals “adopt” such symbols and go right on using them, yes.
Berdusk’s nobility do indeed have both full, elaborate blazons and simplified badges (details to follow - - including Caunter, Kuje and Rinonalyrna Fathomlin! - - when I can track down my file), and yes, the blazons in POWER OF FAERUN are indeed “actual Faerűnian heraldry.”
To whit:
p63 depicts a badge (simplified blazon) used by the city of Iriaebor (and by certain folk elsewhere who claim descent from a former lord of that city, and thus “rightful” rule over the city, though most of them have never been near the place).
P67 is a badge recently used by the Forgehard trading coster (a dwarf-owned and dominantly staffed organization), based in Citadel Adbar, but it was formerly (and is far better known as) the badge of the city of Mirabar. It is sometimes confused with the rather similar “new” badge of the Iron Throne merchant consortium (which adds a face-on throne, cupping the flame, in place of the anvil, but is otherwise essentially the same).
P69 is the badge of the city of Zazesspur in Tethyr (it actually depicts Stormdagger Keep, the fortified in-city home of the ruling Hhune ducal family, but is NOT used by the Duke of Kamlann or his family).
P70 is the badge of Anstel Reddragon, a self-styled merchant prince and former adventurer. It was once the badge of the now-defunct adventuring band of whom he was a part, the Red Dragons of Elturel, but they are all dead except Reddragon (some say he was responsible for the deaths of his last five fellow Red Dragons), and is now being used as the badge of the RedSerpent House trading coster, owned and run by Reddragon, and based in Iriaebor (with branch offices in Athkatla, Baldur’s Gate, and Ilipur. Reddragon is a keen-witted, energetic and forceful, utterly unscrupulous man who’s (correctly) rumored to be involved in any amount of deadly and illegal dealings.
The scroll at the bottom, by the way, displays the motto: “No Fear No Failure” when used by Reddragon personally (and when it was owned by the Red Dragons, too), but RedSerpent House replaced those words with: “Coins Our Swords.”
P73 is the badge AND personal family arms of the “merchant princess” Elpharanla Evenstag of Silverymoon, a dealer in fitted clothes, textiles, and fine undergarments (lingerie) whose network of buyers and sellers works on a personal basis rather than trading in bulk as most costers and priakos traders do (and so reach out across most of the Sword Coast North and Western Heartlands). The Evenstags are a half-elven family into which both humans and elves have married, frequently, and are known for musical talents and tastes, being “fashionable” in dress, and for making a LOT of money in urban property investments (we would call them “land flips”) in Waterdeep, Neverwinter, Silverymoon, and Mirabar. Elpharanla is a friend of Alustriel, attends most of her revels, and is always interested in sponsoring new ventures, investing in innovations and new styles, and in aiding fellow Harpers.
P75 is the “new” badge of the Seven Suns trading coster (described on p76 of POWER OF FAERUN), replacing a rather confusing “cluster of seven suns” badge.
P76 is the badge of the Trail Lords trading coster (described on the same page).
P79 is a former badge of the city of Calimport in Calimshan, which reflects the former dominance of the faith of Bhaelros (Talos) in that city. It appears on that page of POWER OF FAERUN because temples in Calimport minted thousands upon thousands of gold and silver trading coins in times past, so the badge can be found stamped on the obverse of many coins still in circulation, particularly in western and southern Faerűn. This badge has often been “borrowed” by various temples of Talos and adventuring bands hired by priests of Talos to act as “the fury of the Divine Storm” upon foes of the faith.
P87 is the badge (simplified arms) of the Hawklin noble family of Cormyr.They were ennobled relatively recently, and their arms reflect the most important founding bloodlines of the family: the Greenshaws and Telwinter clans of Immersea and Wheloon (the green and white colors); the Hawklar (the hawk in flight); the Nelyn (whose badge was the vulture, wherefore the hooked beak of the hawk), both of Suzail; and the Arntrees of Arabel (the bough).
P110 depicts Court Herald Touchstar of Cormyr, based in Suzail (and shows her badge, worn as a literal shield [buckler] oversized cloak-pin). The “ancient enemy of the crown” she’s pointing at is a skeletal warrior who was in life Teldeth Turcassan, a noble of Cormyr. Teldeth bears the manslayer badge of the Turcassans on his surcoat. The “manslayer” is, or was, an evil, many-snake-headed, man-eating, griffon-bodied breed of beast that an early Turcassan claims to have slain the largest of, while adventuring in the wilderlands east of Tethyr, centuries ago. (It is a real monster, but is now very rare; so much so that many sages believe it to be extinct.)
There! Back to frantically scribbling new Realmslore!
So saith Ed. Whooo, meaty new Realmslore here for everyone! Ed warns that the Heralds exist precisely because so much “borrowing” of heraldic devices goes on, and some of these badges may appear elsewhere, used by others to represent other things. (So a different identification given elsewhere by someone else might not really be a contradiction.) Enjoy!
love to all,
THO
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Edited by - The Hooded One on 02 Feb 2008 17:44:53 |
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Questions for Ed Greenwood (2008)
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