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Zandilar
Learned Scribe
Australia
313 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Nov 2008 : 23:06:28
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Heya,
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Zandilar wasn't arguing that such a practice wouldn't have been common in the real world. She was arguing (or at least implying) that the situation in question is wrong, as in immoral. Just because "it happened" doesn't mean Zandilar is going to find it acceptable, and it wouldn't disprove her contention* that such a practice is wrong, either.
*That's how I read it, Zandilar can correct me if I'm wrong.
*sticks the Zandilar seal of approval on Rino's post*
Exactly. In this day and age, adults who allow themselves to be seduced by those who are minors (especially if that adult had some kind of duty of care towards the minor - such as a teacher or a parent (step, foster, adoptive, or otherwise)), are subject to prosecution under the law.
In short, the law expects that adults should know better.
There's enough evidence to suggest that most young persons cannot give informed consent, and when they consent to something (even if they initiate it), there's lasting harm done to their psyche later. Personally I don't give a darn what consenting adults do (even if they're related by blood (so long as there's no issue), or by life long adoption), but when they step over the line and molest a minor (even if it was initiated by the minor) they should have the book thrown at them.
Having said that, age of consent (majority) is a completely different issue. Some people below the age of consent are quite capable of making informed choices when it comes to sex... And some people who are adults are quite incapable of the same (I'd make a political comment about the current US government and their insistence on teaching abstinence instead of safe/safer sex, but that's out of place here). Which is why I used "most" in the above paragraph.
It probably wouldn't squick me as much if Asper was marginally older (ie: an adult, not a hormone ravaged teen), because age differences don't bother me (they ruddy well better not! After all, my step-father is just 6 years older than me, and 20 years younger than my mother).
Also, the (sometimes only seemingly) young nubile woman throwing herself at a <insert combination of fat, hairy, wheezing> elderly man... It's not just a stereotype, it's a cliche, especially in the Realms it seems sometimes. |
Zandilar
~amor vincit omnia~
~audaces fortuna iuvat~
As the spell ends, you look up into the sky to see the sun blazing overhead like noon in a desert. Then something else in the sky catches your attention. Turning your gaze, you see a tawny furred kitten bounding across the sky towards the new sun. Her eyes glint a mischevious green as she pounces on it as if it were nothing but a colossal ball of golden yarn. With quick strokes of her paws, it is batted across the sky, back and forth. Then with a wink the kitten and the sun disappear, leaving the citizens of Elversult gazing up with amazed expressions that quickly turn into chortles and mirth.
The Sunlord left Elversult the same day in humilitation, and was never heard from again. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2008 : 00:45:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
True enough... Maybe it's time to follow PDK entirely over to the Dark Side... my Pathfinder Campaign Guide is on its way to me as I type this. 
This is ED's thread, not WotC's, and he DID contribute to that fine work. 
In fact, I still chuckle every time I think about Erik Mona's comment that "Raw Ed is amazing".  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Jamallo Kreen
Master of Realmslore
USA
1537 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2008 : 02:20:44
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Thanks much for the information on chariot races. I especially welcome cool phrases which may be dropped into a game to give it a "Realms" feel rather than being just "D&D."
With all this discussion of same-gender lovers (it's an inescapable topic in California this month), I recall some who actually changed Earth history, e.g. Damon and Pythias, David and Jonathan, Edward the Second of England and his two consecutive male lovers (which didn't work out well for him in the end), and some heir-presumptive to the Ottoman Sultanate who took up with a male lover (was it Dracula's brother?), which indirectly led to southeastern Europe being invaded by the Turks, and so on. My question is: what same-gender couples in the history of Faerun, Zakhara, and Kara-Tur have had significant effects on history? And, while we're on the topic, was there ever anything like the Sacred Band of Thebes? (I suspect not, given that it was -- apparently -- unique in Earth history).
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I have a mouth, but I am in a library and must not scream.
Feed the poor and stroke your ego, too: http://www.freerice.com/index.php.
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createvmind
Senior Scribe
490 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2008 : 02:36:48
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Hello All,
If a golem is given a command to cease fighting but is then attacked after, will it defend itself or just allow itself to be destroyed?
Here's what happened this past friday.
Players managed to locate hideout of badly injured red wizard, she failed save against spell Grim Revenge twice which causes hand to dettach and become ghoulish and attack previous owner. She fails against Mind Poison spell but manages to flee via telport to her island hideout, unfortunately she is unable to adminster healing due to lacking hands or appropiate spells to help her access healing flask, although she has none that will regenerate her hands. The attacker "A-man" wishes to use PC's to deal with her for various reasons and drops one of the now bashed hands in their laps, telling them it will augment their scrying of her since she is unknown to them.
The PC's do just that even though they have determined that "A-man" is a vampire, cleric of Selune actually performs the divination using the hand as a foci which I as DM found interesting but haven't decided what if any code this would be possibly violating (If you have any suggestions, please share).
Anyway they manage to locate her and whick themselves to her location where an alchemical golem is waiting, during the fighting and probably due to Mind Poison spell the red wizard falls under dominate spell of PC bard who commands her to tell golem to cease fighting, bard then teleports away with enthralled red wizard.
NOW!!! The PC mage during this summoned a creature an had it attack the golem, with the red wizard gone and it being assaulted, would the golem retaliate? |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2008 : 03:48:29
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Heya, Zandilar.
You posted: “If I have any point wrong here, please let me know.”
I’d say you got 1, 2, and 3 correct.
However, your Number 4 reads: “When Asper gets old enough to be interested in boys, she's not interested in boys her age, but her own adoptive father (who is not just old enough to be her father, but probably old enough to be her great grandfather). So she seduces him and they marry.”
I’ve read Ed’s unpublished short stories, character notes, and a LOT of unpublished Waterdeep lore (much of it specific to our “home” campaign), as well as interacting, character to character, with the NPC Asper, and based on all of that, I’d correct your Number 4 to read like this:
When Asper gets old enough to become sexually active (she’s been INTERESTED in sex for years, having seen so much of it during her nightly rooftop thieving and spying adventures, undertaken while Mirt is asleep or off on nightly business, thinking her safely in bed), she tries out boys and girls her age and a little older, starting when she’s about age fourteen. (Later than many in Waterdeep, but earlier than some.)
Most of them bore her and ultimately repel her; they are either callow or naïve, or completely self-centered, or impatiently clumsy in their grasping for power.
Asper soon finds herself drawn instinctively to older, more worldly partners, and seeks such out avidly.
She soon discovers that most of the older women she can reach are either disinterested in her, or are (for example, the nobles) utter bitches, who are interested in her only for their own pleasure or as a pawn they can use to further their own aims (such as sending her to seduce men they are interested in, or wish to harm).
Increasingly, she’s drawn to men rather than women, and males older than she is.
Most of the older men (Asper samples such often, late on many a night) just don’t measure up - - in personality, that is (many of them far outstrip him in agility, looks, and put-on charm) - - to the man she knows better than all others: Mirt, whose ward she is (and who is, yes, not just old enough to be her father, but old enough to be her grandfather or even her great-grandfather). Mirt is kind, and makes her laugh, and thinks more deeply, and accomplishes far more (for more than just his personal gain) far more than anyone else she meets - - and many of them are trying to ingratiate themselves with her, whereas Mirt is not.
During her wild teen years of thieving and learning to become good with a blade, Asper scours Waterdeep for someone better (in her eyes) than Mirt, and comes up with only a handful of possible candidates, most of whom (such as Piergeiron or Khelben) neither attract her nor are interested in her in the slightest. Like most teens, she’s being rudely rebellious towards Mirt’s light household rules at this time, and comes to be impressed by how he handles her defiance. Then she happens to spy on him while he’s handling far worse opposition from some nobles trying to get their own way and ruin Waterdeep in the process, judges his performance, and decides Mirt is the man she wants to spend the rest of her life with, and have as her partner.
So she sets out to seduce Mirt, who rebuffs her at first (she’s his WARD, by the gods!) and on several occasions thereafter. When she’s [[as far as I can tell from Ed’s lore notes about their marriage - - which Mirt insists on, by the way]] nineteen, and he’s battle-wounded and abed, drinking to dull the pain, she succeeds in seducing him by simply nursing him to slumber, then joining him in bed.
Here’s a few lines from Ed’s third story, of Mirt’s awakening, thereafter:
“Curses of Sharess!” Mirt groaned, staring blearily into the familiar eyes smiling up at him from the crook of his shoulder. “What’ve I DONE?”
Asper’s smile flashed bright triumph. “’Tis not what you did, Old Wolf,” she told him fiercely. “’Tis what I’VE done!”
Mirt groaned again.
Now, nineteen is young in the opinion of some, but I doubt most nineteen year olds would agree with you that they can’t make their own choices at that age.
From my own current age, looking back, I’d say many nineteen year olds make lousy choices, but in most places in our real world nineteen is old enough to join an army and go off and get killed, and is certainly old enough to marry.
And yes, “young woman hurling herself at old, decrepit male” is a stereotype, in the real world and the Realms, and often for the same reasons: it’s marrying into money, power, and a hoped-for “good life.” Often it’s a mistake, and Ed has shown it to be so in many of his writings about the nobles of both Waterdeep and Cormyr.
Asper is slender, agile, small of stature, and “sleek.” She looks younger than she is, and most Waterdhavians who see her, circa 1358 DR or so, probably think she’s quite young.
Your wording, Zandilar, makes it sound like Mirt bedded a young child. The truth is, he was drunk and abed and was seduced there by a randy lass (Ed has several times described her as “in the grip of raging hormones,” meaning: she’s one of those individuals who likes and wants sex, often) who was almost twenty.
As I said in my earlier post: Ed wasn’t trying to portray either Mirt or Asper as heroes or villains (or “loose” or “wanton,” for that matter). Just as “real” characters, who grow morally as they gain experience. Mirt spent much of his life as a merciless, crude, selfish adventurer . . . but was one of the few of that sort of person to grow in another direction, over time.
love,
THO
P.S. Jamallo Kreen: “(which didn't work out well for him in the end)” . . . what a HORRIBLE pun!!!
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2008 : 06:24:02
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| Heh. This whole discussion about Mirt and Asper's "young love" kinda reminds me of the reactions some readers had to the start of the "love affair" between Colossus and Shadowcat in Uncanny X-Men back in the early 80's. I remember reading all the negative mail the folks at Marvel received from some readers over that one panel in #165 where Peter passionately kissed the 14-year-old Katya. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 13 Nov 2008 06:25:30 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2008 : 07:02:37
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Heh. This whole discussion about Mirt and Asper's "young love" kinda reminds me of the reactions some readers had to the start of the "love affair" between Colossus and Shadowcat in Uncanny X-Men back in the early 80's. I remember reading all the negative mail the folks at Marvel received from some readers over that one panel in #165 where Peter passionately kissed the 14-year-old Katya.
It reminded me of my wife and I...9 years difference between our ages; but I look older than I am from a hard life...and she looks younger than she is (which defies my own experience because her life was harder than mine!).
Now, so many years later and three children to boot...I STILL get looks from women who think I'm some old pervert kissing a young girl (my wife, now 28, still looks to be in her teens...while I'm 37 and look to be perhaps in my fourties!!!).
On a more "on topic" note:
If some El/Manshoon stuff is perhaps in the wings of writing...
Have the Knights of Myth Drannor ever had need to work WITH the Lord of the Zhentarim? |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Zandilar
Learned Scribe
Australia
313 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2008 : 08:10:04
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Heya,
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
When she’s [[as far as I can tell from Ed’s lore notes about their marriage - - which Mirt insists on, by the way]] nineteen, and he’s battle-wounded and abed, drinking to dull the pain, she succeeds in seducing him by simply nursing him to slumber, then joining him in bed.
Ah, the important bit of information I didn't know (what I bolded).
Squick factor just went from a billion to 0.  My stepfather was just 19 when he and my mother became lovers, and was 20 by the time he moved in. They didn't actually marry until much later.
Thank you for that, it was something that had always bothered me because I didn't have one pertinent bit of information. I'm glad to see it wasn't what I thought, really.
(I still don't see the attraction to Mirt, though. He's really not my type.) |
Zandilar
~amor vincit omnia~
~audaces fortuna iuvat~
As the spell ends, you look up into the sky to see the sun blazing overhead like noon in a desert. Then something else in the sky catches your attention. Turning your gaze, you see a tawny furred kitten bounding across the sky towards the new sun. Her eyes glint a mischevious green as she pounces on it as if it were nothing but a colossal ball of golden yarn. With quick strokes of her paws, it is batted across the sky, back and forth. Then with a wink the kitten and the sun disappear, leaving the citizens of Elversult gazing up with amazed expressions that quickly turn into chortles and mirth.
The Sunlord left Elversult the same day in humilitation, and was never heard from again. |
Edited by - Zandilar on 13 Nov 2008 08:11:07 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2008 : 08:43:01
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Howdy Ed,
Long time RAS fan here, diving into the full smorgasbord of Realms lore in a more apropos environment than the mostly-younger community of fans in RAS's official forums. I think I've sufficiently learned of your import and status in the Realms from perusing around, but I admit that I still have a lot to learn outside of RAS's works.
Which brings me to a recent controversy in another scroll here on CK.com. Over in the scroll <"Dale-Reckoning Date of the Menzoberranzan Box Set">, a little drama arose over how much weight to give the official date of the MBS, in light of my own independent research into all of the time clues of RAS's Menzo-related works.
After a bit of hopping about, stabbing wildly in the dark at different isolated blurbs in the set, someone asserted that you had assigned a certain date to the set, and that that settled it, once and for all. I have yet to see this statement from you, as nobody could link me to it. They just claim it's out here, somewhere in the ethos...
But when I myself read through the set, I seem to find some minor time clues that, combined with my research into the time clues within RAS's Menzo-related works, point to a slightly different time setting. I explained how I came to a different conclusion.
However, no one really explained how you made your determination. That's a little dissatisfying.
What's more, no one could really explain how my determination is wrong.
Instead, the discussion basically seemed to come down to BESSo: Because Ed Says So! That's very dissatisfying.
In light of the others' inability to explain your rationale for dating the MBS as you have apparently done, could you do so now? I'd be much obliged.
IMO, the kicker is that you seemed to have made your best educated guess, estimation, projection, etc., etc., at the time (1991), but there really was no way to know how long it would take before RAS finally moved the Menzo community fully into the 2nd Edition and caught up with the Time of Troubles and the year 1358 DR. So, if I'm reading things correctly, you used your Ao-ly powers and decided that late 1357 DR made as much sense as anything.
But if I may be so bold, that conclusion seems not to match up with the fact that the MBS also mentions a few events from Bob's book The Legacy, and when read with the rest of the books of his "Legacy of the Drow" mini-series, TL actually appears to have taken place in the spring immediately preceeding the Time of Troubles. That would seen to make it spring, 1358 DR.
Were you, perhaps, intending for the MBS to be set in 1357 DR, but someone else inserted the Drizzt and TL passages later? As RAS's other novels in the mini-series came down the pike, that might have extended the effective current time of the set to spring, 1358 DR, without your witting consent in 1991. It seems pretty clear that funky happenings like to go down during the editing process. And things evolve through the passage of time...
I do not mean to be contrarian or disrespectful in suggesting all of this, but I do stand by my research. I was hoping you could offer an explanation that might reconcile our divergent views on this.
And hopefully your answer will be more satisfying than that of the other scribes in that scroll: BESSo!  |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 13 Nov 2008 09:50:33 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2008 : 09:07:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
True enough... Maybe it's time to follow PDK entirely over to the Dark Side... my Pathfinder Campaign Guide is on its way to me as I type this.
This is ED's thread, not WotC's, and he DID contribute to that fine work.
Hey, I didn't say there was anything bad about the Dark Side, did I? I would just prefer to be talking about the Realms without having to dodge the Spellplague. I've come to accept NDAs as a necessary evil in a shared world... after all, what's the point of creating such cool lore if you then allow others to read it right away? Seriously: I'm done flogging that dead horse, because nobody else around here likes that particular kind of kink... at least, I'm not aware of anyone who does...
Erg... I had a question for Ed, but it's 1AM where I am, and my brain has entered sieve mode. Oh well. Ed's fielding enough questions from me already, not to mention everyone else's. If I remember what I wanted to ask, I'll repost. G'night to everybody on the West Coast; hopefully nobody east of me is still awake.  |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 13 Nov 2008 09:11:02 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2008 : 14:31:30
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin and Zandilar,
Neither I nor Ed am arguing that what Mirt did was morally right.
I know. I was just made a general post in which I attempted to clarify what I thought Zandilar's position on the matter was, and responded to the argument about how often similar situations happen in the real world (which I believe misses the point of what Zandilar was saying).
Like many others here I am fond of Mirt and would love to read more stories about him. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 13 Nov 2008 15:18:16 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2008 : 21:44:47
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Hello again, all. Herewith, Ed’s reply to BEAST’s query: “Howdy Ed,
Long time RAS fan here, diving into the full smorgasbord of Realms lore in a more apropos environment than the mostly-younger community of fans in RAS's official forums. I think I've sufficiently learned of your import and status in the Realms from perusing around, but I admit that I still have a lot to learn outside of RAS's works.
Which brings me to a recent controversy in another scroll here on CK.com. Over in the scroll <"Dale-Reckoning Date of the Menzoberranzan Box Set">, a little drama arose over how much weight to give the official date of the MBS, in light of my own independent research into all of the time clues of RAS's Menzo-related works.
After a bit of hopping about, stabbing wildly in the dark at different isolated blurbs in the set, someone asserted that you had assigned a certain date to the set, and that that settled it, once and for all. I have yet to see this statement from you, as nobody could link me to it. They just claim it's out here, somewhere in the ethos...
But when I myself read through the set, I seem to find some minor time clues that, combined with my research into the time clues within RAS's Menzo-related works, point to a slightly different time setting. I explained how I came to a different conclusion.
However, no one really explained how you made your determination. That's a little dissatisfying.
What's more, no one could really explain how my determination is wrong.
Instead, the discussion basically seemed to come down to BESSo: Because Ed Says So! That's very dissatisfying.
In light of the others' inability to explain your rationale for dating the MBS as you have apparently done, could you do so now? I'd be much obliged.
IMO, the kicker is that you seemed to have made your best educated guess, estimation, projection, etc., etc., at the time (1991), but there really was no way to know how long it would take before RAS finally moved the Menzo community fully into the 2nd Edition and caught up with the Time of Troubles and the year 1358 DR. So, if I'm reading things correctly, you used your Ao-ly powers and decided that late 1357 DR made as much sense as anything.
But if I may be so bold, that conclusion seems not to match up with the fact that the MBS also mentions a few events from Bob's book The Legacy, and when read with the rest of the books of his "Legacy of the Drow" mini-series, TL actually appears to have taken place in the spring immediately preceeding the Time of Troubles. That would seen to make it spring, 1358 DR.
Were you, perhaps, intending for the MBS to be set in 1357 DR, but someone else inserted the Drizzt and TL passages later? As RAS's other novels in the mini-series came down the pike, that might have extended the effective current time of the set to spring, 1358 DR, without your witting consent in 1991. It seems pretty clear that funky happenings like to go down during the editing process. And things evolve through the passage of time...
I do not mean to be contrarian or disrespectful in suggesting all of this, but I do stand by my research. I was hoping you could offer an explanation that might reconcile our divergent views on this.
And hopefully your answer will be more satisfying than that of the other scribes in that scroll: BESSo!”
Ed replies:
Hmm. With all due respect, BEAST, you seem not to have read The Hooded One’s reply to you, in the “Dale-Reckoning Date” thread, all that closely.
She told you very clearly that the date of that boxed set was determined by the Realms design team, and given to me as one of the parameters when I wrote it.
(She’s one of the players in my ‘home’ [the original] Realms campaign, and knows that much about the boxed set from talking to me.)
I think the basic problem here is that many fans, yourself included, may not know how Realms products are written, what the “rules” are, and so on.
First of all, though it may sound arrogant, “Because Ed Says So!” IS a rule in the Realms; it’s part of the original Realms agreement which is the way in which anyone besides me (so, you, Bob Salvatore, and all of the Candlekeep scribes) got to see and know about the Realms. It’s a given, just as, say, Jo Rowling gets to be the authority on Harry Potter or George R.R. Martin on Westeros: I created the world, so I’m the authority on it.
If you read one of Bob’s Drizzt books, every single word you read is possible because of that agreement, so you can’t dismiss the agreement or say you don’t accept it: if you do, Bob’s books [and hence, all of your research, or knowledge of Menzo at all] can’t exist for you.
Still, because I hate arrogance and because rushing around giving my opinion on everything could lead to lots of consistency problems (given that all sorts of other creative people are always at work in the Realms), I really dislike doing so.
Moreover, to iron out consistency problems, we long ago amended that “Because Ed Says So” to read: “It’s What Ed Says It Is Until A Later Official Work Contradicts Him.”
Hence THO’s conclusion, in her post replying to you, about shifting the official date: it’s clear that some of the details Bob wrote (or his editors amended), after the boxed set was published, DO suggest a different date.
And I certainly don’t mind following your thoroughly-supported reasoning and moving the date of the boxed set, because consistency SHOULD (always) rule.
However, moving the date of the set isn’t “up to me.” It’s up to the copyright holder: TSR (now Wizards).
From your wording in this post to me and in the posts you made in that thread, you seem to be under the impression that Realms writers and designers “guess” (or get to decide) about the datings of products, what they want to write about, and so on.
Not so (though we try, believe me, we all try!).
From the beginning of the TSR-published Realms, there has always been company control of what Realmslore appeared, and how. At first it was the editors of DRAGON, deciding which of my articles to print, and how to change my wordings. Then, when the Realms became a product line, it was a series of “Realms traffic cops,” starting with Jeff Grubb. At times the fiction and gaming arms of TSR and/or Wizards have operated independently, and at times as one. Right now, there is a ‘Realms design team’ in charge of things, as there was at the time the Menzo boxed set was written. Different people and different company, but this much is constant: the Realms Design Team decides things for the Realms. Bosses, higher up in the company, can veto or change products, but getting the approved products “done” (and all details of the content of such products) is governed by the team.
This isn’t because of any control fetish; it’s the only way to maintain some semblance of coherence, so that so many cooks don’t swiftly become “too many cooks,” all contradicting each other.
Bob Salvatore (who is a good friend of mine, though we don’t see each other nearly enough) and I are both freelancers; neither of us has ever been an employee of either TSR or Wizards of the Coast. We dicker with company folks about what books we write, what’ll be in them, and so on.
I did not guess at, or decide, the dating of the Menzo boxed set. I was asked to write it, and told what the Realms date of its content would be: we were doing a “snapshot” of the drow city of Menzoberranzan as of the beginning of the fourth quarter of the year 1357 DR.
So, no, I didn’t use my “Ao-ly powers” to decide on the dating of the Menzo boxed set. I signed a contract to write something that I wanted to write, and the Exhibit A of that contract had some design parameters in it (that signing the contract bound me to follow), including the in-Realms date of the boxed set.
And that date is what THO communicated to you. It’s not “my” dating; it was assigned, and known to everyone involved in the project.
I’m not disputing your very thorough reading of published sources, that has led you to arrive at a different date. I have been for years the thorn in the side of everyone at TSR and later Wizards, insisting repeatedly that consistency must rule, and when there are inconsistencies we MUST come up with an explanation.
You also seem to think that every word you read in print is an unaltered expression of the writer’s will and intent. Not so. My Menzo writing was edited by several hands, at the company, and Bob’s Drizzt prose gets edited, too. So, yes, passages we did not write can get added (even without our knowing about them, after we’re “done”), or what we did write altered by omission and change.
I appreciate that you are approaching the Realms through Bob’s writing, rather than, say, seeing the gaming lore first, or the novels of others. Where we “come from” colours how all of us see and consider things - - so I’m trying to politely point out: the ‘canon’ or ‘gospel’ in the Realms is ultimately governed by the Realms design team. If you approach the Realms regarding every detail of Bob’s words as right, and everything different from them wrong, you are inevitably going to see lots of little glitches. It happens, though we try not to make it happen, and such Realms fans as Eric Boyd, George Krashos, Brian James, and Brian Cortijo (to name just a few) try very hard to “explain away” the glitches they find, just as many Realms fans post questions on this thread to try to get my “explainings away” for things. (And from time to time, the Realms Design Team comes to me to concoct an explanation, or for a “ruling.”)
So there you have it. The Menzoberranzan boxed set is officially set after three-quarters of 1357 DR have passed (in other words, in the first tenday or so of Eleint, of 1357). If it makes you feel any better, it was kept that vague to allow a DM some “wiggle room.”
Your reasoning, derived from the internal evidence in Bob’s prose, leads you to date the set in the spring of 1358 DR, and that’s fine with me. However, as I said, it’s not up to me: the Design Team (of 1991) decreed, and it’s official. Unless you can manage to get it changed. [Myself, I consider trying that to be about as likely to succeed as digging up a dead president and asking him to change a decree. Just because the different-personnel, different-company Realms team of today is more than busy with the products of today.] Yet you’ve proved your case to me, so I’m happy to say: okay, spring of 1358. As far as I’m concerned. :}
There’s nothing at all wrong with your digging through the lore and putting two and two together, either in intent or performance. Well done, and swords high.
So saith Ed. Who is busy with something Realmsian he’s not allowed to tell us about, yet. And says that Steven Schend’s post to Jakk about NDAs, in Steven’s thread here at the Keep, is “right on!”
love to all,
THO
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Edited by - The Hooded One on 13 Nov 2008 23:48:03 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2008 : 00:46:15
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
<chop>
So saith Ed. Who is busy with something Realmsian he’s not allowed to tell us about, yet. And says that Steven Schend’s post to Jakk about NDAs, in Steven’s thread here at the Keep, is “right on!”
love to all,
THO
Thanks for those words, Ed and THO; between your words and Steven's, I'm now exponentially less frustrated than I was 24 hours ago. Just out of curiosity (assuming that the question has an answer, which it may not): If NDAs are put into place to protect impending projects, is there an "expiration date" of any sort? I know (from a discussion regarding the first-rate Ironfang Keep Realmslore article by Brian R. James) that some NDAs (including that one regarding Ironfang Keep) have fixed expiration dates, while others (including, presumably, the one covering the Cormyr Royal Lineage document) do not. For the latter group, is there a time at which old NDAs that have not been dealt with are vacated, or could we be waiting for Asmodeus and Dispater to receive their new hockey gear before the lore is released (as I've put it elsewhere, including, for a time, my signature)?
Knowing that an NDA means that the lore is "on its way" helps greatly, but in this specific case (the Cormyr lineage) I fear the unknown element of presentation, given that there will be no further hard-copy publications for the Realms in 4E. I'm not a fan of DDi, and even the release of the Cormyr lineage via that medium may not be enough to get me to subscribe. I've expressed my thoughts on alternate lore delivery methods elsewhere in the 'Keep, and they're not needed to fill space here.
Thanks again to Ed and THO for the confirmation of Steven's reassurances, and here's hoping we see the Lineage sometime soon... |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 14 Nov 2008 00:50:16 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2008 : 01:38:28
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Hello again, all. I bring a brief reply from Ed to Jakk:
Jakk, a FEW of the dreaded NDAs have fixed expirations, and others have vague ones linked to an edition change or a license expiry or another writer's killing off of a character or destruction of a place ("Well, I guess if the castle has been destroyed, this NDA regarding its layout for a defunct computer game is toast, too - - but better check"). We ALWAYS check.
Re. the Cormyr lineage: too much work has gone into that document for it to remain secret forever. (And I know at least three anonymous Wizards staffers who agree with me.) So be as patient as some of the Chosen were, and . . .
So saith Ed. I'm glad he didn't say "As patient as Elminster," because then I would have been forced to tease him mercilessly!
love,
THO |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2008 : 01:53:21
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-Sooner than later I hope.
BRIMSTONE  |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2008 : 05:45:47
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That's very good to hear. I have just completed assembling what is already published about the genealogy of the Cormyr nobility, at least for the most part; I have the entire Obarskyr succession (in two parts thanks to the Thronestrife) and the Wyvernspur lineage (linked via the marriage of Linnese Wyvernspur to King Azoun II), and bits of the Silver lineage (rather tangled at the top, due to not knowing whose daughters married whom) all in one document. I'm trying to find a genealogy program that will allow user-defined dating systems; I was unable to put Faerlthann's birth year in because my current program does not allow negative year values, and I only accomplished two-digit years by inserting the leading zeroes. Azoun V and his descendants have not yet been added, partly because that generation is substantially different in my Realms and I want to have the "beginning" complete before I separate the file into "canon" and "my campaign".
Anyway, enough blather from me. I'm going to work on Impiltur and Tethyr next, and proceed from there until I have the complete Cormyr lineage (or the complete Impiltur lineage from Krash, whichever happens first). Hopefully I and the other Faerunian history buffs at Candlekeep won't have too long to wait.
Thanks again, Ed and THO! Maybe I can stop pestering Brian/Garen about this now. Patience and willpower are the greatest two of my many shortcomings as a person, so we'll see...
Edit: Regarding the Thronestrife: Is it possible that we will see some fiction from Ed regarding this time period... say, around the release date of the lineage document? Just a thought... I think that even a short story would be great to introduce the answers to the Cormyr lineage confusion that "riddles" (pun intended) the early 4th century DR. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 14 Nov 2008 05:53:04 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2008 : 06:16:21
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Another question (sorry!): We have, courtesy of George Krashos, the beginnings of an article on the "Lords Who Sleep", which names some half-dozen of their number. Does Ed have any more information about this organization? I plan on (or have already accomplished) reversing certain "recent" events of the Cormyr Trilogy, particularly the destruction of the Lords, and I was wondering if anything resembling a full roster existed anywhere. Given the size of the group, I suspect not anything near "complete"... but I know better than to underestimate Ed's creative output.
Three (well, four) more quick yes-no questions, while I'm thinking of them; if the answers are NDA'd, I understand; Garen was unwilling to answer the first at all, so I didn't even ask the other two.
1) Are any of Gorauna's four named grandnieces and grandnephews siblings?
1a) Are the mother(s) or father(s) of those young monarchs listed in the succession in the GHotR? (yes or no; I know better than to ask who they are)
2) Did Azoun II have any younger brothers? Again, I know better than to ask for names.
3) Did his son Proster have any younger brothers? Ditto on the qualifier.
That's all; I'm going to bite my tongue (or my fingers, as the case may be) and cease and desist with Cormyr lineage questions in the hopes that we will see this precious document in the near future, and try to come up with questions regarding the Tethyrian succession for you. Let me get that one diagrammed out first, though...
Thanks again for any (in this case, one-word) answers you can give me on those points. Time for me to start on that Tethyrian succession diagram... |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
Edited by - Jakk on 14 Nov 2008 06:19:38 |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2008 : 10:02:02
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Hmm. With all due respect, BEAST, you seem not to have read The Hooded One’s reply to you, in the “Dale-Reckoning Date” thread, all that closely.
She told you very clearly that the date of that boxed set was determined by the Realms design team, and given to me as one of the parameters when I wrote it.
(She’s one of the players in my ‘home’ [the original] Realms campaign, and knows that much about the boxed set from talking to me.)
I think the basic problem here is that many fans, yourself included, may not know how Realms products are written, what the “rules” are, and so on.
[...]
You are correct, Sir. I readily acknowledge my ignorance on the procedures behind the scenes. I completely missed the point that THE DESIGN TEAM prescribed an official date to you, going into it.
The way the scroll was running along, almost all comments were along the lines of "Ed said this," "Bob said that," "But Ed says this, so that's that." With that sort of pattern, it sounded like YOU established the date for the box, and the design team just signed off on it.
With that shouting match ringing in my ears, it was not made clear enough for my thick skull that the team established that date headed into it, and you took your marching orders from them, and from there. Looking back at it, you're completely right that THO did say that. Gotcha. And thank you for the education into the process.
The Hooded One, as an aside,
I do humbly apologize to you for that oversight. My defensiveness in the light of the dog pile blinded me to your input on this specific point. It was not a case of intentionally ignoring you.
Nevertheless, should I be punished?
But I digress...
quote:
so I’m trying to politely point out: the ‘canon’ or ‘gospel’ in the Realms is ultimately governed by the Realms design team. If you approach the Realms regarding every detail of Bob’s words as right, and everything different from them wrong, you are inevitably going to see lots of little glitches. It happens, though we try not to make it happen, and such Realms fans as Eric Boyd, George Krashos, Brian James, and Brian Cortijo (to name just a few) try very hard to “explain away” the glitches they find, just as many Realms fans post questions on this thread to try to get my “explainings away” for things. (And from time to time, the Realms Design Team comes to me to concoct an explanation, or for a “ruling.”)
I understand that. I don't view RAS's writings as the gospel. I think I actually tickle him pink any time I sheepishly point out another glitch that I find in his books. But I also usually offer him a reasonable alternative explanation as an out at the same time, so it's all good.
But I do expect a reasonable explanation when the official word is found to differ from what he's written, for no apparent reason. And it would be nice if the answer weren't as condescending as over in the other scroll, either to RAS or to me. Even though what RAS has written is indeed not the gospel, that doesn't really make design team-introduced glitches reasonable, does it?
I am not expecting perfection, but when those glitches are pointed out, it would be nice if we could all cooperate in moving more closely towards that goal, instead of vociferously defending that state of imperfection because of who originally authored it, or because the imperfection was subsequently pointed out by a RAS fan, thereby somehow nullifying the observation outright.
quote:
You also seem to think that every word you read in print is an unaltered expression of the writer’s will and intent. Not so. My Menzo writing was edited by several hands, at the company, and Bob’s Drizzt prose gets edited, too. So, yes, passages we did not write can get added (even without our knowing about them, after we’re “done”), or what we did write altered by omission and change.
With respect, that's not quite right. Bob has filled his fans in on stuff like the editorial gender-bending of Guenhwyvar early on in his series, so I am familiar with that particular wrench in the works.
I conceded that maybe there was another responsible agent at work here, when I asked in my earlier query here, "Were you, perhaps, intending for the MBS to be set in 1357 DR, but someone else inserted the Drizzt and TL passages later? As RAS's other novels in the mini-series came down the pike, that might have extended the effective current time of the set[...]. It seems pretty clear that funky happenings like to go down during the editing process. And things evolve through the passage of time..."
(I get it, now, that the official date was not YOUR intention, but rather, the team's.)
But I was also asking if someone else might've been the responsible party for effectively undermining that intended date. It now seems like you did exactly what you were asked to do: to describe the state of affairs in Menzo in late 1357 DR. However, someone (someone else?) then added the The Legacy passage--probably because it was a hot new product and someone in marketing thought it would help draw more interest. In 1991, there was no way of knowing what effect that brief additional passage would have on the current time in the boxed set. It probably seemed like no effect at all.
Yet now, years later, things don't quite add up--through no fault of your own.
quote:
First of all, though it may sound arrogant, “Because Ed Says So!” IS a rule in the Realms; it’s part of the original Realms agreement which is the way in which anyone besides me (so, you, Bob Salvatore, and all of the Candlekeep scribes) got to see and know about the Realms.
I understand that Sir, and I read you, loud and clear. No problem with that, as a primary rule. As the creator, you're entitled.
However...the problem over there in the other scroll was that there was an apparent implication that "BESSo" trumps "whatever-anybody-else-says-who-also-signed-onto-that-agreement", and that there seemed to be a strong chaser of "regardless-of-whether-it-makes-sense-so-shooh-fly-don't-bother-me-with-your-pedestrian-RAS-fan-self".
I came here to this scroll, in part, with the thought, "Yeah, Ed Said So once upon a time, but with my research in mind, does he STILL say so?" Are we honestly dealing with commandments chiseled in stone over here, or is there, indeed, "wiggle room", when facts and reason dictate such?
Apparently, it turns out that the real answer all along was not BESSo, but rather, "BTDTSSo: Because THE DESIGN TEAM Said So". (Somehow, that acronym really doesn't roll off the tongue nearly as well...)
Regardless of who said so, the real question is what to do about it?
quote:
Still, because I hate arrogance and because rushing around giving my opinion on everything could lead to lots of consistency problems (given that all sorts of other creative people are always at work in the Realms), I really dislike doing so.
You're certainly not giving off any arrogant air here, regardless of how your fans over there in the other scroll expressed themselves. Thank you for that.
quote:
it’s clear that some of the details Bob wrote (or his editors amended), after the boxed set was published, DO suggest a different date.
And I certainly don’t mind following your thoroughly-supported reasoning and moving the date of the boxed set, because consistency SHOULD (always) rule.
[...]
I’m not disputing your very thorough reading of published sources, that has led you to arrive at a different date. I have been for years the thorn in the side of everyone at TSR and later Wizards, insisting repeatedly that consistency must rule, and when there are inconsistencies we MUST come up with an explanation.
[...]
Your reasoning, derived from the internal evidence in Bob’s prose, leads you to date the set in the spring of 1358 DR, and that’s fine with me.
[...]
Yet you’ve proved your case to me, so I’m happy to say: okay, spring of 1358. As far as I’m concerned. :}
There’s nothing at all wrong with your digging through the lore and putting two and two together, either in intent or performance. Well done, and swords high.
Thank you for noticing and acknowledging, Ed.
Obviously that's a lot more satisfying than BESSo!
quote:
However, moving the date of the set isn’t “up to me.” It’s up to the copyright holder: TSR (now Wizards).
[...]
as I said, it’s not up to me: the Design Team (of 1991) decreed, and it’s official. Unless you can manage to get it changed. [Myself, I consider trying that to be about as likely to succeed as digging up a dead president and asking him to change a decree. Just because the different-personnel, different-company Realms team of today is more than busy with the products of today.]
[...]
so I’m trying to politely point out: the ‘canon’ or ‘gospel’ in the Realms is ultimately governed by the Realms design team.
I guess what is called for, then, is a sort of "amendment" process to this "government"?
I'm not really pressuring you, or THO, or anybody else at the moment, to change the OFFICIAL time for the MBS. Don Quixote I am not. In that scroll, I was mostly trying to answer the questioner's question with as factual and reasonable of an answer as I could, given the info available to me at the time. The official info was not available to me; it came from the team, then you, and then ultimately THO. My main thrust is to try to get all fans I encounter to look beyond any official pronouncement and check to see what answers to any questions actually make sense. I would rather abide by what can be backed up by fact and reason, rather than official pronouncement, anyway--whether the company ever comes around or not. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2008 : 13:14:32
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This Just In -
"Long Island man's head explodes after hearing the letters 'NDA' for the ten-thousanth time in a single week... film at '11"
We now bring you back to your regularly scheduled thread.... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 14 Nov 2008 21:33:52 |
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Atomo
Acolyte
Brazil
6 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2008 : 13:34:06
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Hello, everyone.
Two small questions to Ed:
1) Which are the constelations in Toril sky? And how close they remember their supposed name? (By myself, I never saw a bear in anyplace of Ursa Major)
2) The faiths on Realms have some equivalent to the "cross sign" did supersticiously to evoke protection? If yes, could you please tell me some examples? (In my home campaign, my Gondite gnome touch in anything of iron in these situations. Almost ever a gear ).
Thank you in advance and hugs from Brazil. |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3287 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2008 : 13:42:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
This Just In -
"Long Island man's head explodes after hearing the letters 'NDA' for the ten-thouanth time in a single week... film at '11"
We now bring you back to your regularly scheduled thread....
-I am really starting to dislike that term. 
BRIMSTONE |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2008 : 14:14:25
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While Ed will probably have more, I thought I'd tackle one of these in the meantime.
quote:
Originally posted by Atomo
1) Which are the constelations in Toril sky? And how close they remember their supposed name? (By myself, I never saw a bear in anyplace of Ursa Major)
There certainly are constellations -- here's a webpage compiling information on them:- http://web.archive.org/web/20050427104236/ www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Castle/2566/stars.htm
[Cut and paste the link above into your address bar and delete the space between the "/" and the "www"]
And Ed's touched on the subject of specific constellations in his previous replies. I suggest you perform a search through the compiled reply files. [See the "So Saith Ed" link in my sig] |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 14 Nov 2008 14:20:51 |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2008 : 16:07:13
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Hello! BEAST, darling, in response to your question to me (“Nevertheless, should I be punished?”), I have only one response:
Only if the punishment can be mutual. (Purrrrr)
Love,
THO
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2008 : 16:25:29
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Hello again, all. (Ahem.)
I also bring a response from Ed to the recent queries from Jakk, which are interspersed hereafter:
Jakk: “Regarding the Thronestrife: Is it possible that we will see some fiction from Ed regarding this time period... say, around the release date of the lineage document? Just a thought... I think that even a short story would be great to introduce the answers to the Cormyr lineage confusion that "riddles" (pun intended) the early 4th century DR.”
Ed replies:
It’s certainly possible. Around the release date of something else? Ah, there you ask for something far beyond my powers, so my most honest response would probably be: Sorry, almost certainly not.
Jakk: “We have, courtesy of George Krashos, the beginnings of an article on the "Lords Who Sleep", which names some half-dozen of their number. Does Ed have any more information about this organization? I . . . was wondering if anything resembling a full roster existed anywhere.”
Ed replies:
Not yet, because I always try to leave ‘loose ends’ for a DM to introduce their own characters (or a novel writer, ditto). That’s why we tend to dodge laying EVERYTHING out. A lineage of kings is different, because it’s a way for DMs, designers, and fiction writers to “hang” invented incidents in the past to anchor their plots and dungeon treasures of today.
Jakk: “Three (well, four) more quick yes-no questions, while I'm thinking of them; if the answers are NDA'd, I understand; Garen was unwilling to answer the first at all, so I didn't even ask the other two.
1) Are any of Gorauna's four named grandnieces and grandnephews siblings?
1a) Are the mother(s) or father(s) of those young monarchs listed in the succession in the GHotR? (yes or no; I know better than to ask who they are)
2) Did Azoun II have any younger brothers? Again, I know better than to ask for names.
3) Did his son Proster have any younger brothers? Ditto on the qualifier.”
Ed replies:
1. NDA
1a. NDA
2. NDA
3. NDA :}
Sorry. I appreciate you REALLY want to know, but I for one REALLY want to get the lineage published, and am afraid giving bits of it away will harm the chances of this. Let us hope all of our Obarskyr and Cormyrean nobles questions can be answered, soon.
So saith Ed. Who really IS sorry, and promises to return with meatier Realmslore replies.
love to all,
THO
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Atomo
Acolyte
Brazil
6 Posts |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2008 : 19:19:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Brimstone
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
This Just In -
"Long Island man's head explodes after hearing the letters 'NDA' for the ten-thouanth time in a single week... film at '11"
We now bring you back to your regularly scheduled thread....
-I am really starting to dislike that term.
Me three. That being said, if there were no secrets, there wouldn't be anything worth knowing, would there? At least, that's what I talk myself to sleep with every night while waiting for the Cormyr Lineage... |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2008 : 19:22:13
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Hello! BEAST, darling, in response to your question to me (“Nevertheless, should I be punished?”), I have only one response:
Only if the punishment can be mutual. (Purrrrr)
Love,
THO
 I suspect I may need to be punished too, with my incessant questions about topics firmly NDA'd... do with me what you will... |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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The Hooded One
Lady Herald of Realmslore
5056 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2008 : 20:49:58
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Ohhh, Jakk, things are going to get SO crowded in here. We'll just have to lie on top of each other, I suppose . . .
Ahem.
Hello again, all. This from Ed of the Greenwood to BEAST:
I agree, consistency glitches are never reasonable, no matter what the source, and patching them up (or using them as spurs to concocting adventures) is one of the greatest things Candlekeep and other fan sites achieve.
I don’t think being a fan of Bob’s writing gets you looked down on in the Keep, though; many of us (myself included) love favourite scenes or “bright moments” in his books, which is the way most of us enjoy most writing. The flip side of that is that there are also things that we don’t like as much in the oeuvre of any writer; certainly there are plenty of scribes in these halls who find my Realms fiction not to their taste.
Obviously, I’d like them to enthusiastically drool over my every noun, but if we all loved the exact same thing in writing, our bookshelves would be pretty boring: one writer producing one book (or a series of nigh-identical books) would be all that would be necessary. Which reminds me of the old wince-worthy non-reader’s joke: “What do we get X for Christmas?” / “How about a book?” / “Naw, he already has a book.”
You are quite right re. the editing of the boxed set; someone in-house must have amended my turnover text to reflect the first draft of THE LEGACY or some Book Department discussions with Bob or a book outline. That was usual, not unusual, and in those days there was a lengthy process for moving a project from first rough draft to final printed version (particularly a boxed set with maps and loose-leaf handouts), so there was plenty of time for this to be done.
And your quest for consistency and reasoning from the sources is just fine with me, and to be applauded. Doing that very thing got Eric Boyd the chance to write or co-write a string of very useful sourcebooks, and when Brian James did it, we all profited in the end by getting THE GRAND HISTORY OF THE REALMS into print.
Onward and upward!
So saith Ed. Creator of the Realms, and its very first consistency watchdog.
love,
THO
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2008 : 23:40:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Atomo
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
here's a webpage compiling information on them:- http://web.archive.org/web/20050427104236/ www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Castle/2566/stars.htm
Thank you for the link and fast answer, Mr. Sage... May Oghma bless you with eternal wisdom
By the way, do you know if someone (canon or not) actually draw these constelations in the sky... A sky map?
Well, I don't recall there being any specific canon-image of the constellations of Toril. There have been one or two partial descriptions in novels and sourcebooks of what the night's sky looks like from certain areas of the continent of Faerûn. But not a whole and complete picture. I suppose you could piece those portions together and generate your own.
Having said that, I have my own interpretation, and a draft visual working of the constellations based on both canon lore and my own lore that I've introduced into the Realms over the past 18+ years. So I'm not really sure that will be of any real use to you.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 14 Nov 2008 23:42:02 |
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Jakk
Great Reader
Canada
2165 Posts |
Posted - 15 Nov 2008 : 05:27:36
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
<chop>
So saith Ed. Creator of the Realms, and its very first consistency watchdog.
On that note... I'm not expecting an answer to this one, because I expect it to be NDA, but I'm hoping that the chronological inconsistency of Thatoryl Elian's death will be resolved with the eventual publication of the Cormyr lineage.
Now for a question you may be able to answer: It occurred to me in the past few hours that the ideal place for the story of the Thronestrife to be told was in the pages of Cormyr: A Novel... was it specifically requested to be excluded from that tale, or had it not yet taken its current diaphanous form at that time? I understand if this, too, is covered by NDA.
That's all. Not another word from me about this. I promise. |
Playing in the Realms since the Old Grey Box (1987)... and *still* having fun with material published before 2008, despite the NDA'd lore.
If it's comparable in power with non-magical abilities, it's not magic. |
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Questions for Ed Greenwood (2008)
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