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Darkmeer
Senior Scribe
USA
505 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Dec 2007 : 16:24:56
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I had the chance to look through the book at my FLGS this week... I am not impressed, and I'm a little more than disgusted with it.
Why?
The art is copying several other great games' art, and the dwarven women look distinctly non-dwarven to me. Also, the low-medium-epic level character portraits they did felt a little like Diablo 1 (where each armor got more bells & whistles).
Next, the races & reasoning out who's in & who's out was silly. The minoi (tinker gnome from Dragonlance) excuse for ignoring gnomes is just insulting. The Dragon-race looks interesting, but I already have enough of those, thanks.
And Lastly, the descriptions of the classes. While flavor is nice, a little teaser, perhaps the first 3 levels, would have been nice. SOMETHING that will help us understand a portion of the rules mechanics that are occurring.
/d |
"These people are my family, not just friends, and if you want to get to them you gotta go through ME." |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2007 : 19:48:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Darkmeer
The art is copying several other great games' art, and the dwarven women look distinctly non-dwarven to me. Also, the low-medium-epic level character portraits they did felt a little like Diablo 1 (where each armor got more bells & whistles).
Ooooh, I gotta see that, for humor if nothing else. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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ShepherdGunn
Seeker
USA
89 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2007 : 08:44:55
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I refer back to the statement on the Computer Geeks of previous. D&D is becoming Hasbro's answer to WOW, IMO. (Which is really sad, since WOW was Blizzard's answer to Everquest, which was just an online attempt at D&D... le sigh) I mean, I've been following the articles on the D&D website. Sexy female dwarves. Gnomes not PC races to start. Clerics are the Most Powerful Class in the game?!?! After reading the exerpts on the WotC site, I decided against buying this book, and just waiting for some 14 year old to torrent it.
Also... no retcon? Anyone actually READ the article on Elves in 4E? It's a huge Retcon article! The whole thing about Eladrin now being an "elven" race is kinda ridiculous. Oh... and evil elves prefer to workship Gruumsh over Lolth. Gruumsh? Really? Ol' One-Eye? Really??? Elves worshiping Ork gods? No... no retcon over here. Lah-de-dah-de-dah... I shall pretend not to notice the D&D 4E team sneaking their bundles of crack and marijuana into the development meetings. |
"Man does not live by bread alone, likewise, blades and arrows aren't the only things that can kill him." |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2007 : 14:50:34
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| Well, there's nothing wrong with these new concepts in and of themselves, and they could work well in a setting that's designed specifically for them. That doesn't mean such concepts should be shoehorned into the Realms setting, though. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2007 : 00:34:24
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| Looked at it myself, and my main gripe as of this moment is that whole "yes, you can now play evil paladins". Sorry, and I know I'm a reactionary old snob and all that, but if they want a new character class to be holy warriors, then make a new class. Don't drag the poor old paladin down into the dirt. |
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khorne
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1073 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2007 : 09:10:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
Looked at it myself, and my main gripe as of this moment is that whole "yes, you can now play evil paladins". Sorry, and I know I'm a reactionary old snob and all that, but if they want a new character class to be holy warriors, then make a new class. Don't drag the poor old paladin down into the dirt.
Evil paladins? Isn't that what blackguards are for? |
If I were a ranger, I would pick NDA for my favorite enemy |
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Ardashir
Senior Scribe
USA
544 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2007 : 20:45:17
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quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
Looked at it myself, and my main gripe as of this moment is that whole "yes, you can now play evil paladins". Sorry, and I know I'm a reactionary old snob and all that, but if they want a new character class to be holy warriors, then make a new class. Don't drag the poor old paladin down into the dirt.
Evil paladins? Isn't that what blackguards are for?
You'd think so, wouldn't you? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 27 Dec 2007 : 21:50:30
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As I've said before, I honestly like the idea of LE paladins, or even LN ones. As the Knights of Takhisis showed us in DL, it's possible to be honorable and dedicated to a cause, but still be evil. Another example was the Black Paladins in the Rose of the Prophet trilogy, though they were more likely NE rather than LE.
While I understand the historical and mythical backgrounds for the paladin class, I don't see why only the good guys can be sword-swinging, spell-slinging, divine warrior-types. |
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Daviot
Senior Scribe
USA
372 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2007 : 01:25:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
As I've said before, I honestly like the idea of LE paladins, or even LN ones. As the Knights of Takhisis showed us in DL, it's possible to be honorable and dedicated to a cause, but still be evil. Another example was the Black Paladins in the Rose of the Prophet trilogy, though they were more likely NE rather than LE.
While I understand the historical and mythical backgrounds for the paladin class, I don't see why only the good guys can be sword-swinging, spell-slinging, divine warrior-types.
Speaking of classes, (and the paladin argument slightly aside), this is why I really enjoy the Knight class from the PHB II. They're dedicated, honorable, and highly defensive "tanks" (to use MMO parlance). Evil knights make deadly, yet honorable foes, LN's may be on either "side" of a battle, and so forth.
I recently finished my heavy modification of the pre-fab Shadowdale campaign, wherein one player was a LG knight of Ilmater, who (despite not being a paladin), was a member of one paladin orders. It made him all the more impressive, in-game, as he held off and fought blackguards, led paladins, and proved himself their equal, all without a drop of magic (divine or otherwise), and very few magic items. (e.g. a normal Cormyrian destrier warhorse, non-magical barding and armor, and the "Intercessor" sword picked up during the adventure).
So, lawful neutral paladins, dedicated to a cause or country? Sign me up. ~_^ |
One usually has far more to fear from the soft-spoken wizard with a blade and well-worn boots than from the boisterous one in the ivory tower.
My Tabletop Writing CV. |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2007 : 02:19:53
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The way I see it, Paladin should have be designed like a cleric or the 3.5 ranger. You choose a path, good or evil, melee or ranged. Eventually the Paladin becomes a "Divine Champion" which in essence is either a Holy Warrior (whatever) or a Blackguard.
I've always found fallen paladin a precursor to becoming a Blackguard a silly concept. There's no reason an evil god can't have evil paladins that were never good. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2007 : 15:10:19
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quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
I've always found fallen paladin a precursor to becoming a Blackguard a silly concept. There's no reason an evil god can't have evil paladins that were never good.
Actually, that's already the way it worked in 3E--you didn't first need to be a paladin (or even a warrior) to become a blackguard, you just needed to fulfill the PrC requirements. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2007 : 15:41:00
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You just got some nice benefits if you were a fallen paladin on top of being a blackguard, but it wasn't impossible to qualify without being a paladin. I always thought a hexblade blackguard would be kind of cool.
I'm kind of torn on the paladin alignment thing. I think literally a paladin should be LG, but that doesn't mean that a LE, CG, or CE holy warrior shouldn't be available. I kind of like the idea of holy warriors being extreme in some regard though. And a LE "paladin" should neither be called a paladin, nor should he just have "paladin abilities, but evil."
I could picture a LE paladin having fear and domination powers, maybe the ability to cast enervation type spells and special abilities.
I could also see a CE "paladin" that gets some kind of morale bonus for each kill that he makes in his god's name, an immunity to mind affecting powers . . . maybe getting the ability to use wounding abilities.
Ah well, guess its a moot point at this stage in the game. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2007 : 20:26:42
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I've said before that I'm a "square" on this issue and I prefer that the tern "paladin" only refer to LG holy warriors. That doesn't mean I don't think any other kind of holy warrior should exist, though.
Oh yeah, by the way I did flip through this book in the store.  It's a pretty interesting read, and I'm thinking of buying it. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 28 Dec 2007 20:27:23 |
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MerrikCale
Senior Scribe
USA
947 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2007 : 03:43:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I've said before that I'm a "square" on this issue and I prefer that the tern "paladin" only refer to LG holy warriors. That doesn't mean I don't think any other kind of holy warrior should exist, though.
I don't disagree. I think there should be a 4e base class Crusader for that purpose |
When hinges creak in doorless chambers and strange and frightening sounds echo through the halls, whenever candlelights flicker where the air is deathly still, that is the time when ghosts are present, practicing their terror with ghoulish delight. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2007 : 22:06:00
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| An update--I bought the book today. :) I think it's substantial enough to be worth the purchase if you are interested in the new 4E concepts. Obviously, if you hate everything about 4E so far (even aside from the FR setting changes) it probably isn't worth the money. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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dwarvenranger
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2007 : 01:36:19
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| After perusing the book, my thoughts are that the more I read about 4ed, the less likely I am to play it. That bunk about Moradin being too busy to hear the pleas of the dwarves is pure crap. But I will wait until I read the actual PHB before I make my final decision. |
If I waited till I knew what I was doing, I'd never get anything done.
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2007 : 17:51:35
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| Moradin must be busy hitting on wenchs with Elminster then, because apparently everything is going to crap everywhere. ;) |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2007 : 23:33:36
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quote:
Originally posted by dwarvenranger
After perusing the book, my thoughts are that the more I read about 4ed, the less likely I am to play it. That bunk about Moradin being too busy to hear the pleas of the dwarves is pure crap.
That was only during a certain period of time back in the past, though. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 31 Dec 2007 23:33:50 |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2008 : 04:56:43
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| I didn't but it, and won't since I've got better things to spend $20 on, but I thumbed through it and found it interesting. I like the direction they are taking with halflings, it seems to make them a little less like "small humans". I am disappointed by the exclusion of half-orcs, but the fact that they seem to be relegated to a later release for a decent reason (they haven't quite figured out what to do with them yet) makes me feel better about it. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jan 2008 : 19:18:49
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| Yeah, half-orcs (like gnomes) will probably just be released as player races later. If nothing else, they seem to play an important role in the Eberron setting. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 02 Jan 2008 19:19:17 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2008 : 19:49:37
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I read through it at Border's, and all it cost me was the price of a cup of coffee. 
Some things I like, others I didn't, a few things confused me (do halflings now have 'Afro-American features?), and some I out-right hated (Dragonborn remind me of Draconians, and I didn't touch Dragonlance BECAUSE of them).
Tieflings being a race of their own I can get behind, especially if we get the century time-shift. It would make sense for like-minded creatures (Half-orcs, Half-Elves, etc...) to create their own settlements, and start to develop a racial identity of their own after a time (Palishuk, anyone?)
The fact that every race (with the strange, notable exception of the Halflings) appears to have 'Elven' eyes now is rather odd. I understand this is a fantasy setting, but even the humans? 
It left me with an over-all feeling of 'Meh' - I'm just glad I didn't have to pay for a preview. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Jan 2008 02:35:27 |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2008 : 10:10:15
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| If we get a century time shift I might very well be done with the Realms. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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sirreus
Learned Scribe
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2008 : 18:29:40
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My group only plays the realms. right now i'm only reading realms novels and the fr source books are some of the most important to me, as a player and dm. i've played them all and i could not even compare anything to the way i love this setting. i was behind 3.0 from the gitgo and supported the 3.5 revision, because it was needed. i've bought dozens of 3rd ed books, as i'm sure most of us have. having said all that: i hate everything i hear about this change, everything.
i feel ten pounds lighter, thanks. |
"The measure of an undisciplined mind, is that the intellect allows emotion to challenge the observed truth" Richard Baker |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 08 Jan 2008 : 23:42:58
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| I know the feeling sirreus. We may play 3E rules but we still use the AD&D source books, everything about 4E Realms feels like Wizards is just trying to make things easier on themselves because they can't edit properly. If an author can't do the research, the author has no business writing about the Realms. There's no excuse for some of the mistakes that have been made, especially when you get the characters of your #1 author wrong in their source material. |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
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BARDOBARBAROS
Senior Scribe
Greece
581 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2008 : 08:17:08
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| I read the book and I'm very disappointed!! I will wait to see the core books to make my final decision ..But the signs are not good..I think the time that ED GREENWOOD must separate Forgotten Realms with Wizards of the coast is approaching ( if he is able to do such a thing after all).. I do not want my favorite campaign world become the world of warcraft...or else i propose BACK TO 2ND EDITION.... |
BARDOBARBAROS DOES NOT KILL.
HE DECAPITATES!!!
"The city changes, but the fools within it remain always the same" (Edwin Odesseiron- Baldur's gate 2) |
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ShepherdGunn
Seeker
USA
89 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2008 : 11:59:27
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Well, in an effort to support our newest FLGS, my wife and I purchased the Races and Classes book.
After actually reading through the book. I'm left with more mixed emotions, and less abject hatred. There are things that I see a plausible improvements to the rules. I mean, having characters be able to heal themselves, freeing up the cleric to aid in other ways... it has merit. The Warlock now being all the spell casters from the Tome of Magic book... things like that. But, if done wrong, D&D 4E is going to hit bottom faster than the Titanic. And possibly with more weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth.
If they manage to present the Realms in a decent manner... this could.. maybe... possibly... sorta... work.  I hope so. My wife said it best:
"Too much, too fast, all at once"
They're changing EVERYTHING, and instead of just doing it, and letting people digest it, they're cramming it down our throats and telling us that we like it.
I don't know... Maybe in 10 or 20 years we'll look back at this and shake our heads realizing how foolish we were, and resistant to change.
Of course, maybe we'll be watching "D&D 4E: The Death of Imagination", directed by James Cameron, and starring Leonard DeCaprio as "Ed Greenwood". |
"Man does not live by bread alone, likewise, blades and arrows aren't the only things that can kill him." |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2008 : 15:46:14
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I loved the book because I mentally keep the 4E concepts separate from *my* personal conception of the Realms. In a different setting, I would very much enjoy these new concepts.
I plan to get Worlds and Monsters when that comes out (and again, the material therein won't necessarily be used in "my" Realms). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 11 Jan 2008 : 19:10:42
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*nods*
I know what you mean Rin, I just feel that any material that comes out won't be usable in anyones Realms before we're all playing pre-Spellplague. :P |
"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
Edited by - SirUrza on 11 Jan 2008 19:11:17 |
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BARDOBARBAROS
Senior Scribe
Greece
581 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 12:45:01
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Perhaps ED must re-think of continue publishing Forgotten Realms under the Margaret Weiss Productions, ltd (like Castlemourn) instead of Wizards of the coast (if he is able to do it)...
HE and WE must NOT let wizards of the coast ruin our beloved world!!!
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BARDOBARBAROS DOES NOT KILL.
HE DECAPITATES!!!
"The city changes, but the fools within it remain always the same" (Edwin Odesseiron- Baldur's gate 2) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 12 Jan 2008 : 16:10:34
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quote:
Originally posted by BARDOBARBAROS
Perhaps ED must re-think of continue publishing Forgotten Realms under the Margaret Weiss Productions, ltd (like Castlemourn) instead of Wizards of the coast (if he is able to do it)...
HE and WE must NOT let wizards of the coast ruin our beloved world!!!
As we've said before, Ed does not have that choice. WotC owns the Realms, so they can do with it as they please. His choices are to run with the changes or bail on the setting, and he's trying to run with the changes to mitigate the damage. Our choices are to buy 4E Realms products, or to leave them sitting on store shelves, gathering dust.
A call to arms is all well and good, but even a hundred guys with BB guns aren't a threat to a main battle tank. |
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I got Races & Classes.. thoughts..
