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Ranak
Learned Scribe
USA
190 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Nov 2007 : 07:40:31
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Brian James just posted an excellent Realms lore article on Iron Fang keep on DnD Insider. I loved the write up, Minotaurs happen to be one of my favorite monsters, and I am happy to see one in the role of High Priest, versus the usual barbarian/savage portrayal of the race.
Question - has Ironfang keep been featured in any of the Realms novels or official adventures? I would like to find a map of the interior.
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2007 : 08:25:53
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For easy reference: you will find the write up here. And I have to agree - it is excellent though somewhat bizzare! 
Unforutantelly I cannot help you, Ranak, with your question. I don't recall any map being published of that place.
However, you will find minor information, though not nearly as detailed as Brians write up, in the 2nd Ed. FRCS, p. 66 and a nice story of Mongo the Dwarf surviving Ironfang Keep in the 'Running the Realms' section of the same FRCS on p. 24.
Moreover, there is detailed information in the Moonsea sourcebook about the close vicinity of the Keep (Titel: Getting there is half the Fun?), with discriptions of magical protections, dead magic zones and much more. You might find that helpful. Finally, see also 3rd Ed. FRCS p. 160.
Ergdusch |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
Edited by - Ergdusch on 07 Nov 2007 09:02:20 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36861 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Halidan
Senior Scribe
USA
470 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2007 : 14:47:05
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Wow...authentic information about Haask, Voice of Hargut after all this time. Will wonders never cease?
Brian - How soon before we find out what's been happening with Maram of the Great Spear, Borem of the Lake of Boiling Mud and Camnod the Unseen??? I can't wait!!! |
"Over the Mountains
Of the Moon
Down the Valley of the Shadow,
Ride, boldly ride,"
The shade replied,
"If you seek for Eldorado!"
Edgar Allen Poe - 1849 |
Edited by - Halidan on 07 Nov 2007 14:47:33 |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2007 : 15:31:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Halidan
Wow...authentic information about Haask, Voice of Hargut after all this time. Will wonders never cease?
Brian - How soon before we find out what's been happening with Maram of the Great Spear, Borem of the Lake of Boiling Mud and Camnod the Unseen??? I can't wait!!!
Where was Haask, Voice of Hargut mentioned the first time? I don't recall hearing from him earlier... or was he mentioned/did I miss an entry in the GHotR, by any chance? 
Gathered Sages, enlighten me!
Edit note: I did a research myself. He (as well as the others Halidan mentioned) is one of the 'Five lost Gods' from the 'Pool of Radiance' game/novel. |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
Edited by - Ergdusch on 07 Nov 2007 18:19:10 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36861 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2007 : 16:13:38
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Now that I've read the article... Good stuff! 
I liked seeing the reference to the "green" guy -- that was something that I always found creepy. And seeing the Dark Three as part of the Keep's history was just plain cool. |
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freyar
Learned Scribe
Canada
220 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2007 : 17:23:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I wish they'd provide a download link for those articles... 
There's supposed to be a compiled PDF of the whole Dragon #360 issue soon... Who knows when, though |
My DnD Links and Creations |
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Halidan
Senior Scribe
USA
470 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2007 : 18:33:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
Where was Haask, Voice of Hargut mentioned the first time? I don't recall hearing from him earlier... or was he mentioned/did I miss an entry in the GHotR, by any chance?
Gathered Sages, enlighten me!
It's a far more obscure original reference than the GHotR, Ergdusch and I suspect that there are only a few gronards (like myself) that even remember it. I think I have this right, but if I'm missing anything, I invite anyone to jump in:
In the first Realms-based computer game - the 1988 SSI gold box version of the Pools of Radiance, there was an opportunity in an ancient temple of Bane to read an old, black bound book written in a halting script. It read:
quote:
Originally from the SSI Pools of Radiance game
"...and settled foremost in the half of Minor Courtiers were the lesser powers: Maram of the Great Spear; Haask, Voice of Hargut; Tyranthraxus the Flamed One; Borem of the Lake of Boiling Mud; and Camnod the Unseen. These too fell down and became servants of the great lord Bane."
Ever sine then, some sages (like myself) have been trying to find out more information about these five "lesser powers" of Bane.
In the early days of the MPGN Realms listseve, it was suggested that these powers might be five of the seven "forgotten gods" from Westgate. This wasn't correct and despite several requests for additional lore, nothing was forthcomming until we learned about Tyranthraxus and his involvement with the Cult of the Dragon and the Pool of Radiance in Myth Drannor.
Now, BRJ has given us hope that these lesser servants of Bane may one day get a chance at the spotlight. Or at least I hope so. |
"Over the Mountains
Of the Moon
Down the Valley of the Shadow,
Ride, boldly ride,"
The shade replied,
"If you seek for Eldorado!"
Edgar Allen Poe - 1849 |
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2007 : 19:57:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Halidan
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
Where was Haask, Voice of Hargut mentioned the first time? I don't recall hearing from him earlier... or was he mentioned/did I miss an entry in the GHotR, by any chance?
Gathered Sages, enlighten me!
It's a far more obscure original reference than the GHotR, Ergdusch and I suspect that there are only a few gronards (like myself) that even remember it. I think I have this right, but if I'm missing anything, I invite anyone to jump in:
In the first Realms-based computer game - the 1988 SSI gold box version of the Pools of Radiance, there was an opportunity in an ancient temple of Bane to read an old, black bound book written in a halting script. It read:
quote:
Originally from the SSI Pools of Radiance game
"...and settled foremost in the half of Minor Courtiers were the lesser powers: Maram of the Great Spear; Haask, Voice of Hargut; Tyranthraxus the Flamed One; Borem of the Lake of Boiling Mud; and Camnod the Unseen. These too fell down and became servants of the great lord Bane."
Ever sine then, some sages (like myself) have been trying to find out more information about these five "lesser powers" of Bane.
In the early days of the MPGN Realms listseve, it was suggested that these powers might be five of the seven "forgotten gods" from Westgate. This wasn't correct and despite several requests for additional lore, nothing was forthcomming until we learned about Tyranthraxus and his involvement with the Cult of the Dragon and the Pool of Radiance in Myth Drannor.
Now, BRJ has given us hope that these lesser servants of Bane may one day get a chance at the spotlight. Or at least I hope so.
Thanks for this insight! Very much enlightening indeed. This whole thing is very interesting, if not intriguing! |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Ranak
Learned Scribe
USA
190 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2007 : 20:35:50
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quote:
In the first Realms-based computer game - the 1988 SSI gold box version of the Pools of Radiance, there was an opportunity in an ancient temple of Bane to read an old, black bound book written in a halting script. It read:
Originally from the SSI Pools of Radiance game
"...and settled foremost in the half of Minor Courtiers were the lesser powers: Maram of the Great Spear; Haask, Voice of Hargut; Tyranthraxus the Flamed One; Borem of the Lake of Boiling Mud; and Camnod the Unseen. These too fell down and became servants of the great lord Bane."
Fantastic! I am constantly amazed by the depth of knowledge here. I just had a flashback to reading that in Pool of Radiance - I even remember the creepy quiet of the temple, and the impressive stained glass graphics (for a Commodore 64...)
Borem and Camnod have great potential for future plots as well. I noticed in the end of Brian's article that Haask has thrown his lot in with Malar and Ghuanadaur. Could make for some interesting rivalry with Church of Bane. |
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Halidan
Senior Scribe
USA
470 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2007 : 20:55:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Ranak
[quote]Borem and Camnod have great potential for future plots as well. I noticed in the end of Brian's article that Haask has thrown his lot in with Malar and Ghuanadaur. Could make for some interesting rivalry with Church of Bane.
That's a point that's peaked my curiousity as well. Did all the "lesser powers" gone over to other dieties during Bane's absence/death? Did most of them stick with Xvim? Will Bane make a play to either bring Haask back into the fold or destroy him? The possibilities are quite interesting. |
"Over the Mountains
Of the Moon
Down the Valley of the Shadow,
Ride, boldly ride,"
The shade replied,
"If you seek for Eldorado!"
Edgar Allen Poe - 1849 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2007 : 23:19:03
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The article was awesome...but there was one thing I didn't like about it:
The Keep itself. I pictured it differently really...much more titanic in scale compared to the picture of it. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2007 : 01:14:41
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In the past there haven't been a lot of talk of Minotaurs in the Realms primarily because they were featured prominently in the Dragonlance setting. But I like Minotaurs as well and was happy to insert them into the lore of the Moonsea region.
I am unaware of any interior map of the Keep.
quote:
Originally posted by Ranak
Brian James just posted an excellent Realms lore article on Iron Fang keep on DnD Insider. I loved the write up, Minotaurs happen to be one of my favorite monsters, and I am happy to see one in the role of High Priest, versus the usual barbarian/savage portrayal of the race.
Question - has Ironfang keep been featured in any of the Realms novels or official adventures? I would like to find a map of the interior.
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Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2007 : 01:18:04
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Borem's defeat by the Dark Three is briefly described by Eric Boyd in the Grand History p.46. As to tales about Maram, Camnod, or Tyranthraxus, only time will tell.
quote:
Originally posted by Halidan
Wow...authentic information about Haask, Voice of Hargut after all this time. Will wonders never cease?
Brian - How soon before we find out what's been happening with Maram of the Great Spear, Borem of the Lake of Boiling Mud and Camnod the Unseen??? I can't wait!!!
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Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2007 : 01:22:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Halidan
It's a far more obscure original reference than the GHotR, Ergdusch and I suspect that there are only a few gronards (like myself) that even remember it.
Count me as one of those gronards then. Pool of Radiance on my Commodore 128 was my first introduction to the Forgotten Realms, and I'm thrilled to have had the opportunity to write about one of the mysterious lesser powers mentioned in the game journal. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2007 : 02:16:49
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Being a minotaur fan myself, I can't help but add to this discussion...
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
In the past there haven't been a lot of talk of Minotaurs in the Realms primarily because they were featured prominently in the Dragonlance setting. But I like Minotaurs as well and was happy to insert them into the lore of the Moonsea region.
Well, we've had minotaurs referenced in Realmslore for the Moonsea region previously, so your article works as a nice addition to that.
And, as we know, the minotaur race doesn't feature prominently in the Realms. There are of course minotaurs in Faerûn, but they are not a wholly organised people with a land or nation or their own.
We know, from Ed, that -
"Faerunian minotaurs are very rarely seen or mentioned for the same reason psionics was downplayed for so long; they’re considered essential elements of another TSR/now WotC product line (minotaurs meant Dragonlance, psionics meant Dark Sun). So while they’re in the Realms (the ‘home of everything’ for 2nd Edition D&D), we weren’t allowed to feature them in adventures or novels, or make more than passing mention of them."
and,
"Capn Charlie. I like both of your minotaur isle ideas, and yes, I have always included a FEW intelligent, refined minotaurs, though most are brutish, barbarian-level “grunting beasts.” I’ve always treated lizard men the same way; most are tribal warriors with much cunning but not a whole lot of inspirational intellect (i.e. they can learn a new weapon, trap, or battlefield danger in a hurry in a fight with PCs, but don’t lead lives of complex culture), but a few are every bit as intelligent and accomplished as most humans. This usually means that they’re smart enough to keep isolated and largely hidden from humans."
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2007 : 02:41:54
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| I'm actually pretty surprised--I had no idea that minotaurs were a distinctly Dragonlance thing (until now?). I thought Dragonlance was mainly about, well, dragons. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2007 : 03:07:44
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Hopefully Minotaurs will get some love in 4E!
Very interesting article.
The Dark Three, well they just rock anyway! |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
Edited by - Brimstone on 08 Nov 2007 03:08:27 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36861 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2007 : 04:55:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I'm actually pretty surprised--I had no idea that minotaurs were a distinctly Dragonlance thing (until now?). I thought Dragonlance was mainly about, well, dragons.
The main continent had a couple islands of them, and the other big continent had a huge minotaur nation. |
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Ranak
Learned Scribe
USA
190 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2007 : 05:48:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I'm actually pretty surprised--I had no idea that minotaurs were a distinctly Dragonlance thing (until now?). I thought Dragonlance was mainly about, well, dragons.
The main continent had a couple islands of them, and the other big continent had a huge minotaur nation.
And... Kas the Minotaur was a popular character. I am glad they are rare in the realms, it makes their appearance more surprising, say if your party was wandering through Ironfang.
As for the artwork in the article, I agree I imagined it more soaring in dimensions because of the giants... perhaps all it needed was a little perspective, a tiny person in front of it, etc. I zoomed into the PDF and couldn't find any real referential objects for perspective. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2007 : 06:11:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I'm actually pretty surprised--I had no idea that minotaurs were a distinctly Dragonlance thing (until now?). I thought Dragonlance was mainly about, well, dragons.
The main continent had a couple islands of them, and the other big continent had a huge minotaur nation.
Specifically, the Blood Sea Isle minotaur nations, on Ansalon. And the Kazelati nation, on the far eastern Holakan Islands. The Imperial League is the minotaur nation on Taladas.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2007 : 06:13:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Ranak
And... Kas the Minotaur was a popular character.
Indeed. Kaz[iganthi] de-Orilg remains one of my favorite DL characters, since the time of his first appearance in the early published material for the setting.
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Ranak
Learned Scribe
USA
190 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2007 : 07:54:15
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Ranak
And... Kas the Minotaur was a popular character.
Indeed. Kaz[iganthi] de-Orilg remains one of my favorite DL characters, since the time of his first appearance in the early published material for the setting.
Sorry, my spelling is abysmal... lol. Legend of Huma was actually the first DL book I ever read, not reading the seminal works until later.
I hope we see an Ironfang Keep adventure on DnD Insider sometime soon. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2007 : 14:27:03
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| Needless to say I haven't gotten into Dragonlance, so I appreciate all the information. I still don't understand why it was necessary to "ignore" minotaurs in Faerun because of that (they were a legitimate FR monster after all), but oh well. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36861 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2007 : 17:13:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Needless to say I haven't gotten into Dragonlance, so I appreciate all the information. I still don't understand why it was necessary to "ignore" minotaurs in Faerun because of that (they were a legitimate FR monster after all), but oh well.
It was felt that if there was a focus on them, it would be too much like Dragginglance. Keeping them in the background kept there from being any perceptions of similarity between the settings. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Ranak
Learned Scribe
USA
190 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2007 : 18:38:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Needless to say I haven't gotten into Dragonlance, so I appreciate all the information. I still don't understand why it was necessary to "ignore" minotaurs in Faerun because of that (they were a legitimate FR monster after all), but oh well.
TSR was somewhat chaotic yet had a lot of crazy rules, and I understand that the editors were also very erratic, sometimes editing a book to the point where it barely made sense. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2007 : 23:30:52
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Thats Okay, I moved both Kender and 'Krynotaurs' into my Realms (the standard ones are bigger and more primitive, and the Krynnish ones have human feet rather then hooves). Just because TSR/WotC chooses to ignore something doesn't mean we can't use it anyway.
BTW, I altered the pic - the doorways were too large compared to the rest of the building.
http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y178/MarkusTay/Ironfang_Keep2.jpg
Now imagine that the doorways are made to allow Titans, and the Dragon above is a venerable Great Wyrm.
BTW - Great article Brian. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 08 Nov 2007 23:31:33 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2007 : 23:39:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Thats Okay, I moved both Kender...
And we've had kender in the Realms before -- Emilo Haversack, from Tymora's Luck.
quote:
...and 'Krynotaurs' into my Realms (the standard ones are bigger and more primitive, and the Krynnish ones have human feet rather then hooves).
They're not exactly "human feet." Rather, the feet of Krynnish minotaurs end in twin toes with hoof-like toenails.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2007 : 00:11:52
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Thats Okay, I moved both Kender...
And we've had kender in the Realms before -- Emilo Haversack, from Tymora's Luck.
quote:
...and 'Krynotaurs' into my Realms (the standard ones are bigger and more primitive, and the Krynnish ones have human feet rather then hooves).
They're not exactly "human feet." Rather, the feet of Krynnish minotaurs end in twin toes with hoof-like toenails.
Aren't the Halflings in D&D pretty much Kender now...but without the taunting ability? LOL
I mean...I miss my rolly-polly fellas.
A bit more on topic though, that is a nice pic Markustay, nice adaptation. I just never thought of Ironfang being the domain of a beast cult...cool add; just was never something I thought about.
My take on it was that it was more akin to the Celestial Tower in the D&D cartoon where the Celestial Knights lived. I pictured it as perhaps even a pocket dimension...and even wrote a mini-adventure that included a "Celestial Knight" that hailed from Ironfang... |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2007 : 05:11:23
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I figure there's much more below ground that we can't see. I like the pic a lot, but the text says there is onlty one entrance, yet the illustration clearly has two. However, since the second door is a wee bit hard to get too, I suppose it doesn't really count as an 'entrance'.
I'm thinking there's a hidden entrance behind the waterfall as well... there always is.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Thats Okay, I moved both Kender...
And we've had kender in the Realms before -- Emilo Haversack, from Tymora's Luck.
quote:
...and 'Krynotaurs' into my Realms (the standard ones are bigger and more primitive, and the Krynnish ones have human feet rather then hooves).
They're not exactly "human feet." Rather, the feet of Krynnish minotaurs end in twin toes with hoof-like toenails.
Not mine.
I based my Minotaur kingdom off of the ones on Krynn, but they are not exactly the same. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ironfang Keep
