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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore

1419 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2007 :  03:34:21  Show Profile  Visit Charles Phipps's Homepage Send Charles Phipps a Private Message  Reply with Quote  Delete Topic
I just finished Richard Baker's excellent trilogy and would like to give my review on the issue. My biggest problem will be spelling out the Elven names. I swear, I like Fflar. The man has a nice, simple, and easy to spell name. I'm not even going to try to spell out the Daemonfae's House name but simply refer to them as the Fey'ri.

Ultimately, what I like most about the book is that it's got a consistent running theme throughout it. Specifically, it's the idea that heroism and heroic deeds are things that come with either a price or they are earned by people who aren't really any different than anyone else in the world but for the circumstances that guide them.

The book could have been a Seven Book Trilogy with appropriate time to flesh out the characters and their ambitions as well as personality quirks. Richard Baker is certainly able to pull that off but the events are really too large and the cast too numerous to be able to do much more than show them dealing with the events. This works for me because the characters aren't individuals who need much time to flesh out. The reason is because, instead of archetypes, they're really just regular people.

Fflar is, explicitly, a guy. Maybe better with a sword than most but there is absolutely nothing remarkable about him in his time other than he managed to stab a Demon at the right time before dying. Richard is subtly understating the "man out of time" elements that I enjoyed about Captain America and other 'heroes' but brings it repeatedly home that Fflar doesn't really give a **** about anything beyond what regular people do.

What are Fflar's motivations? After being dead for 600 years, he's interested in finding what happened to his family. What gets to him isn't that the Daemonfae or other evils have destroyed his civilization, it's the fact that his wife remarried after he died with his son raised by someone else. Best of all, after he manages to cope with these changes, he decides that he really wants a woman to cope with it.

Fflar is a hilariously "every elf" in almost all respects.

Araevin is a character that I also know very well because he's pretty much Raistlin Majere and every other guy who puts his ambitions before love. I believe that he did love Seiveril and she was the most important thing in his life but that he also took her for granted and we saw the results of that. Unlike Raistlin, Araevin isn't sickly or bitter but he's also too smart for his own good and ambitious. Now that Araevin has magic, he really has nothing because it's not going to give him anything more to live for or comfort. His ending is a tragic one of loneliness and desolation because he's never going to find companionship that he could have shared as a "mere mortal." The irony that he's not some Shakesperian tragic character and that a dramatic re-weaving of his soul destroys his one chance at happiness is well realized.

Ilsevele rounds out our "normal trilogy" with a strong woman. What seperates Ilsev from your typical kick butt warrior woman? She moves on from Araevin after he neglects her for a bit and doesn't look back. Is she understanding about Araevin pretty much saving tens of thousands of elves and does she give him a chance to win her back after he wins the war? No. She acknowledges he's not human, he's been ignoring her, and there's people who won't. None of the "fantasy gratitude" of many heroines exist here. What's most important to people is their personal relationships rather than grandiose things.

Likewise, the amusing thing about the Crusade is the fact that in 600 years it's almost certain that everyone involved will be lionized to the point of godhood (just like Fflar). That includes Ilsevele's father whom is probably the only one who genuinely concerned himself with "legendary" deeds and he only did that because he was without a wife, had a daughter, and was an old man. That's how real people react, the vast majority of true idealists are very young or middle aged with little to lose. It's a much better contrast that he's the only one genuinely thinking what all player characters think. "The Retreat has only made Elves easier to target."

Overall, the book series reads like a Dungeons and Dragons campaign. This is not a bad thing by any stretch of the imagination. If the Order of the Aster isn't too detailed or we don't learn as much about certain smartass Thieves as we should then that's just how life goes to be honest. There's a great deal of detail packed in here and plenty of fun adventures that I would be loathe to sacrifice any of. Even for the usual naval gazing that a lot of people mistake for a necessary part of a book.

I was surprised by the Fey'ri Queen Sarya's death. I had fully expected her to escape with the utter destruction of the Hosts of the Daemonfae. The fact she's destroyed removes one of the Realms more fabulous villains but she was growing a little tiresome with her profound arrogance and gross stupidity in certain areas. It was more satisfying to see her destroyed but I'll figure some way to ressurect her in my games. I like the less numerous Daemonfae anyway.

I hated when Fzoul allied with Demons, just like I hated his pact with Orgauth, but that's primarilly because I have difficulty imagining any sane person allying with demons. Nevertheless, I'm pleased to see his conquest of Hillsafar even if I would have liked to have seen Fzoul be a little less blatant about his plundering. Then again, worse terms have been instituted by many real life successful monarchs. Good to see the Zhents continue to grow and prosper.

Hail to BANE!

Bravo Richard.

9/10

My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/

Karzak
Learned Scribe

196 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2007 :  14:07:09  Show Profile  Visit Karzak's Homepage Send Karzak a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
The book could have been a Seven Book Trilogy


How exactly would one call a series of seven books "a trilogy"?
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2007 :  16:27:30  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I never felt that this trilogy adequately showed how the protagonists (specifically Araevin) "paid the price" for their actions, or even made sacrifices. Araevin didn't lose Ilsevele, they were both drifting apart from each other to begin with. Neither of them seemed overly upset about eventually breaking up.

If Araevin truly did make a tremendous sacrifice, he didn't suffer for it much in the books! It was exactly what was needed for the plot, and he didn't get much more than a "tsk-tsking" from the other elven High Mages for it.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)

Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 07 Nov 2007 16:28:05
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36784 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2007 :  16:28:37  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Karzak

quote:
The book could have been a Seven Book Trilogy


How exactly would one call a series of seven books "a trilogy"?



The same way the late Douglas Adams called the four* Hitchhiker's novels a trilogy.

*Note: Except for small parts, I loathed Mostly Harmless, and thus refuse to include it in the series. So far as I'm concerned, it ended with the fourth book.

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore

USA
1378 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2007 :  16:59:45  Show Profile Send Crennen FaerieBane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
If Araevin truly did make a tremendous sacrifice, he didn't suffer for it much in the books! It was exactly what was needed for the plot, and he didn't get much more than a "tsk-tsking" from the other elven High Mages for it.



Well, what were they to do? He was a High Mage, he was the only one who could, by himself, reweave mythals. It was kind of a, "Oh crap, well, at least he's on our side," kind of deals. They clearly didn't make him feel accepted, as he basically took the route of censure afterwards.

I agree with Charles. This book reads like a campaign, and I think that's what made me feel so good about the whole trilogy. Think about it, Araevin, Illsevle, and Fflar are like your PCs, and everyone else really takes the NPC role to flush out the party, or the campaign. Maresa and the Order of Aster guys are like you typical DM saying, "oh crap, I need healing and someone that can get my players through traps." As Seiveril also serves as a guiding point, not necessarily a PC.

Oh well, my two cents. I could go on, but everyone has their own opinions.

C-Fb


Still rockin' the Fey'ri style.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2007 :  17:06:05  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane

Well, what were they to do? He was a High Mage, he was the only one who could, by himself, reweave mythals. It was kind of a, "Oh crap, well, at least he's on our side," kind of deals. They clearly didn't make him feel accepted, as he basically took the route of censure afterwards.




My point is I didn't get the impression that anything really bad happened to Araevin as a result of his choice, which made the tension about that plot point ("Araevin is no longer an elf, he has gained too much power too fast!") seem like a lie.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)

Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 07 Nov 2007 17:06:59
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore

1419 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2007 :  17:09:20  Show Profile  Visit Charles Phipps's Homepage Send Charles Phipps a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Karzak

quote:
The book could have been a Seven Book Trilogy


How exactly would one call a series of seven books "a trilogy"?



It's my pet name for overly long series.

;-)

quote:

My point is I didn't get the impression that anything really bad happened to Araevin as a result of his choice, which made the tension about that plot point ("Araevin is no longer an elf, he has gained too much power too fast!") seem like a lie.



I guess it boils down to how much you agree with Illsevle's description that they're not going to get married or be able to work things out. On my part, I genuinely believe that Araevin would have made every effort to adjust because he does love her. Certainly, she's the only person that's ever connected to Araevin on an emotional level amongst elves. At this point, he CAN'T connect to other elves on an emotional level anymore.

It's not a TRAGIC ending. However, it's a bittersweet ending. He achieved the power he wished and used it for good but....so the Hell what. What exactly does all of Araevin's power give him in the end? He's now a High Mage, whoop de kriffing do. He's a High Mage without peers. He's an outcast amongst Elven Wizards, held in contempt by his former love, and has no friends amongst the race that he's the "hero" of.

In the end, he's pretty much as much a freak as a Baelnorn.

My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/

Edited by - Charles Phipps on 07 Nov 2007 17:16:31
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore

USA
1378 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2007 :  17:20:24  Show Profile Send Crennen FaerieBane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin

quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane

Well, what were they to do? He was a High Mage, he was the only one who could, by himself, reweave mythals. It was kind of a, "Oh crap, well, at least he's on our side," kind of deals. They clearly didn't make him feel accepted, as he basically took the route of censure afterwards.




My point is I didn't get the impression that anything really bad happened to Araevin as a result of his choice, which made the tension about that plot point ("Araevin is no longer an elf, he has gained too much power too fast!") seem like a lie.



Not true. He couldn't relate to his own people anymore. That kills and elf who's whole society is based on the interaction of other elves. The Book of Elves (2E) explains this very well. For him, the sacrifice is that he can't socialize without stigma anymore with his own people. His old friends accept him, but not society at large. It's kind of like that Shadow Mage-Elf guy in Troy Denning's trilogy (his name escapes me). He just left at the end for the same reasons. Would you stick around to be crucified or just leave on your own accord and strike a new path.

They can't "do" anything to Araevin - he was a hero. But, Araevin can do something for himself. He now adventures with knowing that trips to Evermeet or Evereska, or even Myth Drannor, will now be full of suspicion of his fellow people. I don't know about you, but I wouldn't want to come back to my "home" and see nothing but people whispering and staring at me strangely.

C-Fb

Still rockin' the Fey'ri style.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2007 :  17:31:07  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
*shrug* The book didn't show Araevin as a sadsack outcast, so why should I imagine that he was?

I just didn't see what other people see in this trilogy, and there's no getting around that. The book was not effective in conveying, to me, that Araevin sacrificed very much at all--period. There's no way to disprove me in this, because it's the impression *I* got.

quote:

He's an outcast amongst Elven Wizards, held in contempt by his former love, and has no friends amongst the race that he's the "hero" of.


I guess that explains why he's a good friend of Prince Lamruil now. ;)

There's nothing in the book that suggests Araevin is held in contempt by Ilsevele--quite the opposite, actually. Furthermore, the novels make it clear that Ilsevele and Araevin were drifting apart because of their different natures, not just because of Araevin's "big choice" (ie. Araevin likes to wander, Ilsevele prefers to be settled). Araevin apparently hasn't gone back to Evermeet, but how is that a loss if he doesn't want to?

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)

Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 07 Nov 2007 17:40:08
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Karzak
Learned Scribe

196 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2007 :  17:57:58  Show Profile  Visit Karzak's Homepage Send Karzak a Private Message  Reply with Quote
You aren't going to touch on the fact that none of the protagonists has a personality and Seiveril is only slightly more intelligent than a vegetable? I don't mean this in a bad way, of course; thinking back on your Book Club comments for the Last Mythal books always makes me smile.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2007 :  18:05:24  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Karzak

You aren't going to touch on the fact that none of the protagonists has a personality and Seiveril is only slightly more intelligent than a vegetable? I don't mean this in a bad way, of course; thinking back on your Book Club comments for the Last Mythal books always makes me smile.



*grins* Glad to hear it. Yes, I definitely had other problems with the books, but I'm sure those present already know about them.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore

USA
1378 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2007 :  18:33:52  Show Profile Send Crennen FaerieBane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yup, well aware of them. I just enjoyed Charles take on them. So, I thought I'd explain that I felt the same way as he. And this is why I play WoW now.

Still rockin' the Fey'ri style.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2007 :  18:43:27  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Understood--I don't expect everyone to feel the same way I do.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore

USA
1378 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2007 :  18:55:07  Show Profile Send Crennen FaerieBane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Of course not - because what fun would a debate be with someone who always agreed!!!

Still rockin' the Fey'ri style.
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore

1419 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2007 :  19:31:06  Show Profile  Visit Charles Phipps's Homepage Send Charles Phipps a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
*shrug* The book didn't show Araevin as a sadsack outcast, so why should I imagine that he was?


You mean the part where everyone is freaked out by him and he breaks up with his girlfriend before going off with humans? That part didn't give you a clue?

quote:
I just didn't see what other people see in this trilogy, and there's no getting around that. The book was not effective in conveying, to me, that Araevin sacrificed very much at all--period. There's no way to disprove me in this, because it's the impression *I* got.


I understand that, I'm just curious what would have been more effective in your view at conveying this.

quote:
I guess that explains why he's a good friend of Prince Lamruil now. ;)


He's also friends with a Gensai. That doesn't change that Geniekind probably don't consider him a friend.

quote:
There's nothing in the book that suggests Araevin is held in contempt by Ilsevele--quite the opposite, actually.


The "you suck, you never cared about me" speech?

quote:
Furthermore, the novels make it clear that Ilsevele and Araevin were drifting apart because of their different natures, not just because of Araevin's "big choice" (ie. Araevin likes to wander, Ilsevele prefers to be settled).


I don't consider that something that would break up a relationship by itself. I also didn't see any drifting apart, just an absence. The earlier books conveyed that they were in love better than many other FR couples.

Their breakup was not unexpected but it was all too real.

My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2007 :  20:21:33  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane

Of course not - because what fun would a debate be with someone who always agreed!!!



True, true.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2007 :  20:28:55  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps


You mean the part where everyone is freaked out by him and he breaks up with his girlfriend before going off with humans? That part didn't give you a clue?


Who is "everyone"? The High Mages? His companions? The people of the Dales?

Araevin spent more time with his party than with anyone else, and they didn't seem to think much about his new nature at all (and indeed, his new nature didn't even change him that much!). Not that they thought much about anything else, but still.

quote:


He's also friends with a Gensai. That doesn't change that Geniekind probably don't consider him a friend.


Don't see your point here.

quote:


The "you suck, you never cared about me" speech?




No, the epilogue of the story, where Ilsevele is happy to have him as her friend and the Grand Mage of Myth Drannor. She laughs with him, kisses him (I believe) and bids him farewell on his journeys.

Surely you didn't miss that part?

quote:


I don't consider that something that would break up a relationship by itself.


Really? I disagree.

quote:
I also didn't see any drifting apart, just an absence. The earlier books conveyed that they were in love better than many other FR couples.



I can't say I even saw that much. Even way back when I read the first book, I thought the author did a poor job of showing Araevin and Ilsevele really being in love with each other. Instead, the impression it left on me (other than it just being a badly written romance) was that these were two people whose relationship had run its course, and they remained with each other because it was convenient more than anything else (without really understanding it at the time).

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)

Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 07 Nov 2007 20:31:26
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At your Behest
Acolyte

Germany
46 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2007 :  20:31:27  Show Profile  Visit At your Behest's Homepage Send At your Behest a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:

I just didn't see what other people see in this trilogy, and there's no getting around that. The book was not effective in conveying, to me, that Araevin sacrificed very much at all--period. There's no way to disprove me in this, because it's the impression *I* got.
quote:




No offense, but why discuss then at all. Just to exhibit static impressions ?

Beware the beast man, for he is the Devil's pawn.

Alone among God's primates, he kills for sport or lust or greed. Yeah, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land.
Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him, for he is the harbinger of death.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2007 :  20:33:02  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by At your Behest

No offense, but why discuss then at all. Just to exhibit static impressions ?



Why should anyone discuss anything at all here?

I disagreed with the OP and felt like commenting on it. I offer no apologies.


"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)

Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 07 Nov 2007 20:33:51
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At your Behest
Acolyte

Germany
46 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2007 :  20:47:44  Show Profile  Visit At your Behest's Homepage Send At your Behest a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Discussing is what people frequently do on message boards.

Don't recall anyone asking for apologies.


Cheers!

Beware the beast man, for he is the Devil's pawn.

Alone among God's primates, he kills for sport or lust or greed. Yeah, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land.
Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him, for he is the harbinger of death.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
Moderator

USA
36784 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2007 :  20:52:30  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Please don't make me put on my mod hat... It's funny-looking and it itches, and I get terrible hathead every time I wear it. And I think it and one of the cats are plotting against me. So please don't make me wear it!

Candlekeep Forums Moderator

Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com
-- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct

I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader

USA
7106 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2007 :  20:59:40  Show Profile  Visit Rinonalyrna Fathomlin's Homepage Send Rinonalyrna Fathomlin a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by At your Behest
Discussing is what people frequently do on message boards.




Right, so why'd you ask me what I was doing here, then?

Wooly, you're right. I'm not really in the mood for a fight, and I've made my point, so I think I'll just bow out of this discussion.

"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time)
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Karzak
Learned Scribe

196 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2007 :  21:11:44  Show Profile  Visit Karzak's Homepage Send Karzak a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by At your Behest

quote:

I just didn't see what other people see in this trilogy, and there's no getting around that. The book was not effective in conveying, to me, that Araevin sacrificed very much at all--period. There's no way to disprove me in this, because it's the impression *I* got.
quote:




No offense, but why discuss then at all. Just to exhibit static impressions ?



Static as opposed to what? Do you expect that someone's opinions on a set of books that are not all that impressive, and to which nothing new has been added, to spontaneously change? Moreover, it's not possible to "disprove" her impression because it is subjective.

You can try me, though. I think the books are unbearably dull and the characters flat; I find it incredible that people think having characters in a novel who are like "you typical DM saying, 'oh crap, I need healing and someone that can get my players through traps'" constitute good writing. Comparison to a campaign transcript is not usually a compliment, and in this case it is like a campaign transcript in the worst way possible: tepid prose (the DM's not much of a writer and has to come up with these descriptions on short notice), characters with no personalities (the players behind these PCs are bored out of their minds and would like to get this campaign done with, please, so they can go home... oh god, I have to roleplay a romance with him? Screw that), and uncreative plot hooks/quests (find pieces of artifacts, find artifact, here are some random encounters to keep you from quitting on the spot - you see a gray render, roll initiative! Player A says to player B: hey, do you have spells that can damage a golem? What about some that can damage an ethereal undead? Player B: sec, let me check my character sheet).

Now disprove me without saying merely saying "well, I disagree". Can you really? Is there anything you can disprove objectively?
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At your Behest
Acolyte

Germany
46 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2007 :  21:30:51  Show Profile  Visit At your Behest's Homepage Send At your Behest a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:

Right, so why'd you ask me what I was doing here, then?
quote:



Actually, if you scroll up, I did not ask that, I asked this quesion in general and was curiously hoping for an answer which did not come.

I merely quoted you as your statment made this question pop up in my head (which seemed reasonable) and it was not solely directed at you (the lack of the word "you" in that infamous question of mine was to make that clear). I was hoping for others to chime in.

Furthermore I used "no offense" to stress my curiosity and that I was not in for a fight. English is not my native tongue but I doubt that I could have done that much more to post more civil and respectful.

Of course I know that this question is not FR related, yet it is rather usual to delve into non FR matters here (read: not strictly related to fantasy), on a sidenote.

EDIT: My focus when discussing is not to desparately try to disprove the others. I have an opinion that I am convinced of to a certain degree but always at least try to make room for the possibility that someone else's differing take on it can open me new ways of seeing at the "subject of discussion" so that my very own opinion might shift more or less slightly.
Personally, I think that a discussion where every side defends its views at any cost is useless and effectively not a discussion at all but more of a comparison.

No worries, I rest my case as well, but I deemed it necessary to elaborate.

No one wants that devious hat of yours to overwhelm you with its other conspirators.

Long live the Keep

Beware the beast man, for he is the Devil's pawn.

Alone among God's primates, he kills for sport or lust or greed. Yeah, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land.
Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him, for he is the harbinger of death.

Edited by - At your Behest on 07 Nov 2007 21:52:23
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Wooly Rupert
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Posted - 07 Nov 2007 :  23:14:14  Show Profile Send Wooly Rupert a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Last warning: find the topic, or this thread gets locked.

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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore

1419 Posts

Posted - 07 Nov 2007 :  23:50:03  Show Profile  Visit Charles Phipps's Homepage Send Charles Phipps a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, I'd like to suggest that I was surprised by the level of change here. Is a rebuilt Myth Drannor a good thing for the campaign setting or not? I know Richard probably didn't decide on it but it was a very interesting choice to make. I also wonder whether it would have been better to let the Daemonfae partially win.

I am VERY intrigued by the idea of merging Elf and Outsider templates to achieve epic spellcasting, however.

My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Lady Fellshot
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USA
379 Posts

Posted - 08 Nov 2007 :  01:28:20  Show Profile  Visit Lady Fellshot's Homepage Send Lady Fellshot a Private Message  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps

Yes, I'd like to suggest that I was surprised by the level of change here. Is a rebuilt Myth Drannor a good thing for the campaign setting or not? I know Richard probably didn't decide on it but it was a very interesting choice to make. I also wonder whether it would have been better to let the Daemonfae partially win.


I was also hoping for a less clear cut win. With the RSE, I find I am a big fan of loose ends. They make for interesting adventure hooks ^.^

quote:
I am VERY intrigued by the idea of merging Elf and Outsider templates to achieve epic spellcasting, however.


I would find this most useful for villian creation, rather than characters. The idea of a faustian ceremony to gain power (good or not) would have been an intriguing character development were it persued further in the novels. Araevin did essentially sell his soul to learn to cast High magic.

I think what upset me most about the Last Mythal books was the ending. Specifically the epilogue. It seemed way too much was left out at the end of the last chapter and then there was that jump forward in time for the characters, with all of it's resolutions and no path to how they all got there. I suppose I should take full advantage of that 5 year gap and the observation that characters in RSEs rarely show up in novels of thier own ever again.
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore

1419 Posts

Posted - 08 Nov 2007 :  01:45:36  Show Profile  Visit Charles Phipps's Homepage Send Charles Phipps a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Yes, I can't help but wonder if a few centuries down the line whether the blood of House D mixed with the fact he's divorced from Elfkind will end up pushing Araevin towards madness and evil.

My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Lady Fellshot
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USA
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Posted - 08 Nov 2007 :  05:50:55  Show Profile  Visit Lady Fellshot's Homepage Send Lady Fellshot a Private Message  Reply with Quote
What I'm most curious to know is if the Dlardrageths were a remnant branch of the Vyshaan coronal line from Aryvaandar (sp?). That would be a most interesting tale to tell if it is supported. Or even if it isn't.

This is random (and probably somewhat off topic), but it seems like WotC are pushing to put elven High magic into bigger role in Faerun overall. Particularly, the High magic of the two opposing sides in the first Crown War, Miyeritar and Aryvaandar. I wonder what this bodes for the upcoming spellplague. Anyway, it is just a random musing, feel free to ignore it.
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Crennen FaerieBane
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USA
1378 Posts

Posted - 08 Nov 2007 :  14:11:35  Show Profile Send Crennen FaerieBane a Private Message  Reply with Quote
Well, you have to remember that not all of the fey'ri, which were not all Dlardregeths, died that day. Trayani (sp) the spy, seemed to disappear at an opportune time. I am sure she is not the only one. The demon side of them seems to exhibit the survivability of that race. What I didn't like about the Fey'ri depicted is the fact that they didn't show the elven side of their race very often. Oh well..

As to the founding of Myth Drannor - well, that's a great city and all, but with the weave kind of, well, going through some dire straits here soon, the mythal, as all mythals, might go kaput, which leaves everything with a hollow victory.

In the end - good books, I'll read them again, as I read any books with Elves as the focal point. I seem to like elves... and long live the long-eared elves!!!

C-Fb

Still rockin' the Fey'ri style.
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Ozzalum
Learned Scribe

USA
277 Posts

Posted - 14 Dec 2007 :  20:09:25  Show Profile  Visit Ozzalum's Homepage Send Ozzalum a Private Message  Reply with Quote
I'm not looking to have a debate about Real World (RW) events but I was struck by the similarities between the events of these novels and the War on Terror. Was this an intentional attempt at allegory?

Towers in Evermeet attacked in a cowardly fashion.

A great power realizes it is vulnerable to attack despite being protected by a vast ocean and weapons that could only be described (accurately in this case) as magic by most common folks.

Great internal division in the nation on how to respond. Eventually an all volunteer force is recruited to go on a crusade to reverse the decline of the once world spanning empire with the aid of a small, yet loyal ally that still lives on the other side of the ocean.

I think there are a few more similarities but since this might be deleted by the mods I'll stop here.

Mind you, Osama is a bit more attractive in the Realms version but I still thought the parallels were striking.
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