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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Dec 2007 : 20:16:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozzalum
I'm not looking to have a debate about Real World (RW) events but I was struck by the similarities between the events of these novels and the War on Terror. Was this an intentional attempt at allegory?
Nah, I don't think the elf leaders knew that the attack was coming and let it be done to convince their people about the need to claim Cormanthor before the Sembians put their hands on it  |
Edited by - Skeptic on 14 Dec 2007 20:18:49 |
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Ozzalum
Learned Scribe
USA
277 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2007 : 20:23:30
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quote:
Nah, I don't think the elf leaders knew that the attack was coming and let it be done to convince their people the need to claim Cormanthor before the Sembians put their hands on it
Now that's just what I was trying to avoid. Now, I am assuming Rich Baker was not into the conspiracy theories surrounding 9/11 at the time he wrote the book. Let's just say I thought the books paralleled the "official" storyline. |
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Ranak
Learned Scribe
USA
190 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2007 : 20:34:53
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I don't know if it was intentional from Mr. Baker, but it certainly would have been fresh in his mind given when those novels were written.
The analogy breaks down in the later books, it is strongest in the first book, even the address to the elven council was highly reminiscent of a speech by Pres Bush. He was one step away from Axis of Toril.
I am glad that the books ended up focusing on Arvin, who has absolutely no analog in the real world. The similarities were distracting enough in the first book, I am glad they were not central to the plot. You can't really draw any analogies from the last book (Malkyzid = Rove? I don't thinks so).
I would be curious to hear what Rich has to say about his inspiration for these books.
quote:
Originally posted by Ozzalum
quote:
Nah, I don't think the elf leaders knew that the attack was coming and let it be done to convince their people the need to claim Cormanthor before the Sembians put their hands on it
Now that's just what I was trying to avoid. Now, I am assuming Rich Baker was not into the conspiracy theories surrounding 9/11 at the time he wrote the book. Let's just say I thought the books paralleled the "official" storyline.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2007 : 21:06:32
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I think any parallels are entirely coincidental. Sneak attacks and retaliatory actions are hardly recent developments.
And let's be quite careful with the commentary on real world events.  |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2007 : 21:18:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think any parallels are entirely coincidental. Sneak attacks and retaliatory actions are hardly recent developments.
My little joke aside, I agree with this. |
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Ozzalum
Learned Scribe
USA
277 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2007 : 21:19:01
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quote:
And let's be quite careful with the commentary on real world events.
As I thought, this is too sensitive a subject to discuss, but I think you dismiss the parallels a little too quickly though. There is precedence: The Watercourse Trilogy was a rewrite of Ayn Rand's story.
This wasn't meant as a criticism, even though it was a bit distracting at first. It is quite possible that I was projecting my own preoccupations on the books but I don't see why Mr. Baker should try to insulate himself completely from real world events in writing his novels. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2007 : 21:39:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozzalum
This wasn't meant as a criticism, even though it was a bit distracting at first. It is quite possible that I was projecting my own preoccupations on the books but I don't see why Mr. Baker should try to insulate himself completely from real world events in writing his novels.
I don't see how an author insulating themselves from the real world is at all a factor, here. I'm not even sure why it's being brought up...
As I already said, sneak attacks and retaliation are hardly new ideas. And just because something like that happened relatively recently in the real world, likely before the books were written, I don't see that it is necessarily at all related.
After all, part of the point of the trilogy was that the elves had to get off of their collective keisters and go to Myth Drannor. How best is this accomplished? Assault them on their own turf, in their own places of power, and then go running to Myth Drannor. This destroys elven complacency, angers and scares them, and presents a very compelling reason for many elves -- particularly the younger, more reactionary ones -- to want to do something about it. I really can't think of any other way to plausibly convince the elves to suddenly end the Retreat and head back to the mainland.
The methods employed by the fey'ri were simply the best way for the author to do what he needed to do. I think that reading anything else into it is just looking for something that isn't there. |
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Ozzalum
Learned Scribe
USA
277 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2007 : 21:57:18
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I don't see why what you wrote above about needing a motivation to get the Elves to the mainland conflicts with Mr. Baker perhaps being influenced by RW events. Let's say he decided things exactly like you said. He needs to have the Elves attacked at home to motivate them. Couldn't he still look to a RW example of the same phenomenon in writing his book? Hence the attack on Towers in Evermeet, the awakening of a great power, warnings from isolationists, the rousing speeches about good and evil, and finally the crusade.
I guess I wasn't really trying to imply that Mr. Baker would have found some other reason for the Elves to go to the mainland if 9/11 hadn't occurred. In all likelihood if 9/11 hadn't happened I would be talking about the parallels to Pearl Harbor and WWII. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 14 Dec 2007 : 23:50:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think any parallels are entirely coincidental. Sneak attacks and retaliatory actions are hardly recent developments.
I agree, and to tell the truth it did not even occur to me that the author might have been basing the events in the novels on specific and recent real world events. Frankly, all I got out of this trilogy was a mediocre war-based fantasy story. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 14 Dec 2007 23:52:51 |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2007 : 00:03:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I agree, and to tell the truth it did not even occur to me that the author might have been basing the events in the novels on specific and recent real world events. Frankly, all I got out of this trilogy was a mediocre war-based fantasy story.
I wouldn't say it is mediocre (I'll keep that for Baldur's gate novelization), however I think it's was badly "designed" : it seems to me that this trilogy was written with the only purpose to give us a explanation for the return of the elves to Myth Drannor, something that was decided "game-wise".
Spoiler (Backstaff) :
Blackstaff was designed in the same way (get us Kelben dead) but some (including me) will say that the author did a better overall job.
I prefer to have good stories written for themselves for which the effects on the setting are decided afterward. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2007 : 00:08:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
I wouldn't say it is mediocre (I'll keep that for Baldur's gate novelization), however I think it's was badly "designed" : it seems to me that this trilogy was written with the only purpose to give us a explanation for the return of the elves to Myth Drannor, something that was decided "game-wise".
...
I prefer to have good stories written for themselves for which the effects on the setting are decided afterward.
I actually agree with you on this, but I still think the books themselves were mediocre (or worse) even as written stories. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2007 : 00:14:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I actually agree with you on this [..]
It's so fun each time you say it |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2007 : 00:16:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozzalum
I don't see why what you wrote above about needing a motivation to get the Elves to the mainland conflicts with Mr. Baker perhaps being influenced by RW events. Let's say he decided things exactly like you said. He needs to have the Elves attacked at home to motivate them. Couldn't he still look to a RW example of the same phenomenon in writing his book? Hence the attack on Towers in Evermeet, the awakening of a great power, warnings from isolationists, the rousing speeches about good and evil, and finally the crusade.
Okay, let's examine this... Why would the elves need a motivation? Um, you are familiar with the Retreat, aren't you? Elves were abandoning their holdings on the continent. They were leaving behind often ancient realms because it was either too much effort to keep defending them, or because they wanted to isolate themselves from the other races. When the collective goal of a nation is to avoid others and pretend the outside world doesn't exist, they don't just spontaneously decide to totally reverse their course without a very compelling reason.
Think of it this way, using the real world tale of Ebenezer Scrooge: he wasn't happy, but he was not about to stop pinching every single penny and constantly grubbing for more. It took a major outside force, the visitation of four ghosts, to scare him into changing his ways.
That's the position the elves were in. They had turned their back on the world, and wanted no part of it. There is no plausible reason for them to suddenly decide to mount an major expedition to the continent, unless something both drastic and major shakes them out of their complacency and makes them want to interact with the rest of the world again.
The elves have to be attacked -- it's absolutely vital to the plot. No other reasoning would work.
So why is it, then, that you feel the author would have to look to a real world event? The plot dictates what needs to happen. A sudden, surprising, major assault against the elven homeland needs to take place.
All the material is right there. Sure, Rich could have looked to the real world for inspiration, but why would he need to? Considering the needs of the plot, what he chose to do is quite logical. It doesn't matter if it happened in the real world or not, because it makes sense to use that particular plot device.
It's logical and obvious, without looking at anything other than the plot. That's why I don't see that any real world influence was necessary.
I'm not arguing that Rich wasn't influenced by real world events. I am just not assuming -- as your posts seem to indicate you are -- that real world events were the only reason that particular plot point was chosen. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Ozzalum
Learned Scribe
USA
277 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2007 : 00:19:16
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| So long as no one agrees with me, all is well with the world. Perhaps I was looking for good escapist reading and instead happened upon what I saw as the War on Terror in Faerun. I'll admit to be rather preoccupied with RW events when I was first reading this series. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2007 : 00:19:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think any parallels are entirely coincidental. Sneak attacks and retaliatory actions are hardly recent developments.
I agree, and to tell the truth it did not even occur to me that the author might have been basing the events in the novels on specific and recent real world events. Frankly, all I got out of this trilogy was a mediocre war-based fantasy story.
I don't agree on the mediocre part, but I can echo the rest of your statement. It never even crossed my mind that any single aspect of the story might have real world parallels. As I said, it makes perfect sense to have done it that way. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36805 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2007 : 00:21:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozzalum
I'll admit to be rather preoccupied with RW events when I was first reading this series.
That's quite understandable. Having something on your mind can quite readily make you see its influence in areas you might not otherwise see. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2007 : 01:02:22
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| I wish that Rich had shown the return of the Shrinshee to coronate the new Coronal (I now know that this was Ilsevele). I liked the trilogy, but IMO it did not feel complete without this scene. Random other thought: Maresa ended being one of my favorite characters. |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
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The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2007 : 01:06:33
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| Another thought, in both the Ervis Cale Trilogy and in the Last Mythal Trilogy, there was a planetouched who should have been a full half blood. The way that planetouched were described in the MM, FRCS, and RoF all described it as being a trace bloodline, that sometimes skipped generations. Maresa was the child of an Air Elemental, and the char from the Ervis Cale Trilogy (I can't remember his name) was the child of a full fledged Devil (or Demon, once again I can't remember). Does this strike anyone else as incongruous? |
Errant d20 Designer - My Blog (last updated January 06, 2016)
One, two! One, two! And through and through
The vorpal blade went snicker-snack!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back. --Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass
"Mmm, not the darkness," Myrin murmured. "Don't cast it there." --Erik Scott de Bie, Shadowbane
* My character sheets (PFRPG, 3.5, and AE versions; not viewable in Internet Explorer)
* Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Reference Document (PFRPG OGL Rules)
* The Hypertext d20 SRD (3.5 OGL Rules)
* 3.5 D&D Archives
My game design work:
* Heroes of the Jade Oath (PFRPG, conversion; Rite Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 1: Cantrips & Orisons (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Compendium Arcanum Volume 2: 1st-Level Spells (PFRPG, designer; d20pfsrd.com Publishing)
* Martial Arts Guidebook (forthcoming) (PFRPG, designer; Rite Publishing)
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Ozzalum
Learned Scribe
USA
277 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2007 : 02:02:17
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quote:
Another thought, in both the Ervis Cale Trilogy and in the Last Mythal Trilogy, there was a planetouched who should have been a full half blood. The way that planetouched were described in the MM, FRCS, and RoF all described it as being a trace bloodline, that sometimes skipped generations. Maresa was the child of an Air Elemental, and the char from the Ervis Cale Trilogy (I can't remember his name) was the child of a full fledged Devil (or Demon, once again I can't remember). Does this strike anyone else as incongruous?
Stop dragging the real world into the discussion! Oh wait...
I figure it is easier to describe someone as the son or daughter of a demon/elemental than it is to say they have trace bloodlines from them. Personally I have a hard time with the traces of demon/elemental blood in the bloodline. Does it only manifest in outward physical attributes in the occasional offspring? If so, why? If not, who is mating with these people with devil horns or what have you? |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 15 Dec 2007 : 02:15:08
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I also felt that the ending felt rushed and tried way too hard tie up loose ends. I was hoping for some more details on the Srinshee's return in Grand History of the Realms, but it never came to pass.
Actually I would have liked to have seen more covered between the last chapter and the epilogue so at least there was an inkling of how the characters got there. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2007 : 02:49:51
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quote:
Originally posted by HawkinstheDM
Another thought, in both the Ervis Cale Trilogy and in the Last Mythal Trilogy, there was a planetouched who should have been a full half blood. The way that planetouched were described in the MM, FRCS, and RoF all described it as being a trace bloodline, that sometimes skipped generations. Maresa was the child of an Air Elemental, and the char from the Ervis Cale Trilogy (I can't remember his name) was the child of a full fledged Devil (or Demon, once again I can't remember). Does this strike anyone else as incongruous?
Yes it does. But I like Paul Kemp's novels enough not to care.  |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2007 : 02:52:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
But I like Paul Kemp's novels enough not to care.
I could be seen as strange, because there is many similaraties in the style of Paul Kemp's novels and Rich Baker Last Mysthal Trilogy, no ?  |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2007 : 02:52:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Ozzalum
I figure it is easier to describe someone as the son or daughter of a demon/elemental than it is to say they have trace bloodlines from them.
And, it can add more drama to the story if the outsider is the character's actual parent as opposed to his distant ancestor. I don't know if Magadon's story would have been so effective if the character who is his father in the novels (trying to avoid spoilers, here) had been a distant ancestor instead. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 16 Dec 2007 : 02:53:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
But I like Paul Kemp's novels enough not to care.
I could be seen as strange, because there is many similaraties in the style of Paul Kemp's novels and Rich Baker Last Mysthal Trilogy, no ?
There's an ineffable quality that makes a person like one book but dislike a similar book. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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RichardBaker
Forgotten Realms Designer & Author
129 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2007 : 04:23:09
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[quote
Instead, the impression it left on me (other than it just being a badly written romance) was that these were two people whose relationship had run its course, and they remained with each other because it was convenient more than anything else (without really understanding it at the time).
[/quote]
Actually, that was deliberate. I wanted to strike exactly that note with Araevin and Ilsevele's relationship in the story.
On the topic of the "9/11" parallel... doubtless this will begin an argument, but I'll say it: That was deliberate too, although I regarded the attack at the end of Elaine Cunningham's Evermeet as the real "attack on the towers" that would shake Evermeet out of its complacency. Here's the way I viewed the parallel: What would happen if you could demonstrate, clearly and without doubt, that a strong retaliation was necessary and just? So yes, the debates in the council of Evermeet are intended to examine the debates we all faced in the months following 9/11. I'll elaborate on my own views about the real world events if necessary, but for now let's just say that my sympathies lie with Seiveril.
Finally, about the "game-iness" in the story: I looked at it like this. If everything the game rules said about the world were true, what would that imply about how people act? I didn't want to present a scene in my novel where someone familiar with both games and novels would say, "Well, that's just stupid. Doesn't the author know these guys probably have fly and dispel magic by now? Why can't they get around the stupid wall of ice?" -- or whatever.
For what it's worth, I'm shooting for a "smaller," more character-driven story in Blades of the Moonsea. Epic fantasy and cast of thousands can take a break for a bit.
And, Rhin -- by my count you've now posted 217 messages explaining why Last Mythal is rotten. I'm starting to get a complex. Don't you have something else to do??? I mean, come on! My kids are heading off to college someday, I might need another few sales.
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Rich Baker
Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2007 : 04:34:00
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quote:
Originally posted by RichardBaker
And, Rhin -- by my count you've now posted 217 messages explaining why Last Mythal is rotten. I'm starting to get a complex. Don't you have something else to do??? I mean, come on! My kids are heading off to college someday, I might need another few sales.
This was uncalled for, Rich.
Rino's post have never been unconstructive. If you don't like her remarks, be professional about it and ignore them, don't post a rude comment about it.
And I know you have been taking fire for a lot of things lately and you might be stressed out, but that's no excuse to post something like that. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 17 Dec 2007 04:38:39 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31777 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2007 : 05:07:08
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Errr... let's keep things in perspective here.
Rich, you've come precariously close to breaching the Candlekeep Code of Conduct here. Now, I understand you're frustration, but I really think you should've dealt with this matter in private, say... via a Private Message for example.
Rino is well within her rights, as deemed by the CoC, to provide constructive criticism, just as you are well within your rights to ignore them or challenge them through private discussion, as you see fit. But this type of public interaction tends to polarise factions here at Candlekeep and create further conflict. And that's not really something I want to see.
So, I would advise all parties involved in this discussion to take some time to re-consider their future replies with respect to this topic, and consider the main points of the CoC with regard to posting etiquette.
I don't really want to seal this particular scroll, but if this trend continues, I'll likely have to do so. If any of you wish to discuss this matter further, feel free to contact me privately.
Thank you.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2007 : 05:10:24
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OMG, defending one's self against repeated attacks is now unprofessional?  |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
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Arkhaedun
Senior Scribe
869 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2007 : 05:13:05
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| Let's please move on from this now. If we wish to get back to discussing the books, that would be fine, but let not dwell on off topic issues that are much better resolved through private channels. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31777 Posts |
Posted - 17 Dec 2007 : 05:21:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
OMG, defending one's self against repeated attacks is now unprofessional?
That's not fair Brian. Really, it isn't. 
I'm not faulting Rich for his feeling disgruntled over Rino's near-constant focusing on her opinion of the books. But as a professional writer, I would've assumed he's had to deal with this type of thing before. And being a professional, I would've thought he'd understand the need to be more diplomatic and respectful of the reader's opinions and handle the issue privately. Or just ignore them, as he sees fit.
By doing it this way, he's not only potentially antagonising Rino, but possibly other scribes as well, especially if they tend to find themselves agreeing with some of her points.
As I said, if either Rich or Rino wish to discuss this matter, then they are free to contact me. However, we must also keep in mind the perspectives of the larger community here at Candlekeep, and ensure that each and every scribe is made to feel welcome -- especially if they've done their best to adhere to the established CoC. This type of conduct only brings out the worst in all the involved parties, and that's not what Candlekeep is about.
Now, let us return to the topic of this particular scroll.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 17 Dec 2007 05:25:33 |
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The Last Mythal Trilogy Review *SPOILERS*
