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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Nov 2007 : 01:08:04
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quote:
Originally posted by RIMV
I will also be asking Ed his opinions on the subject when he returns (any idea's when, ladies and gents?).
THO said he was gone till at least next Wendes, the 7th. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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sayntfuu
Acolyte
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2007 : 02:10:24
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*thought this posted once, I must have botched*
Hi, Braccas here.
I just wanted to add some items:
1) We were hired to find missing scouts, locate the army, and learn the army's intentions by the guard force in a nearby town.
2) These orcs attacked us without preamble from hiding. Our first clue there was a problem was a javelin sticking out of our mage.
3) After the capture but before the torture of this orc some of his friends rose from the dead as Zombies. No one in our party managed a spellcraft check to determine how this was done.
Braccas does not think that torturing this particular orc to find the location of the missing scouts or to learn the intentions of this army is evil. These orcs attacked him and his friends. Braccas believes there are lives at risk; his life, his friends life, the lives of the scouts, and the lives of the townsfolk in the path of this orc army.
My interpretation of Neutral Good means Braccas also believes that concepts such as "The Greater Good" can be compelling enough to permit another to commit an evil act. Much as Mystra allows her clerics to be Lawful Evil. Mystra is Neutral Good but is represented by evil clergy including the head of her Church in Waterdeep. She obviously does not withhold divine magic from these individuals who presumably commit evil acts now and again.
Lathander may not even judge this act of torture to be evil. I think these quotes from the Lathander entry in Faiths & Pantheons pertain to this discussion.
"Strive always to aid, to foster new hope, new ideas, and new prosperity for all humankind and its allies." These orcs were not the allies of humankind.
"With the return of Bane, many progressive deities believe that direct action must be taken to destroy evil once and for all, and that no unintended consequences of Lathander's plans could be as threatening to the world as simply standing by and doing nothing." It seems that Lathander and other gods in Faerun feel that evil is pretty serious business. Even to the point of not caring what else may happen as long as evil is destroyed which seems at the very least to be reckless, perhaps even evil.
"Militant followers stand at the vanguard of efforts to clear civilized lands of harmful beasts or purge the taint of undead from the world." Rampaging orc war parties should count as harmful beasts. 
Anyway, just thought I would drop in and clarify why I told RIMV that Claudia would not be all that upset.
Happy hunting. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2007 : 02:25:31
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quote:
Braccas does not think that torturing this particular orc to find the location of the missing scouts or to learn the intentions of this army is evil. These orcs attacked him and his friends. Braccas believes there are lives at risk; his life, his friends life, the lives of the scouts, and the lives of the townsfolk in the path of this orc army.
No one's disputing whether or not have justification for choosing to do what you're doing, Sayntfuu. However; I would argue that you've made some severe misjudgements about what exactly the context of Good, Neutrality, and Evil are in the Realms. This is an issue for your DM to describe rather than me though since it varies from table to table.
The pursuit of the "Greater Good" can be done by Neutral or Evil characters. Take for instance a bunch of Townsfolk who proceed to eliminate all Children of Orcs and their females to eliminate the Orc Presence in an area. It's a decidedly evil act but they'd certainly argue that it's necessary for the greater good.
Furthermore, if you define Greater Good as "No More Orcs in the area" then you're right. However, if you believe for a second that the good churches would approve of the act then you're wrong. They'd consider the individuals to be monsters and to be put down.
Likewise, Neutral characters are (in my games) those whom are more flexible about busting heads for the betterment of the world. Neutral characters; as a last resort, largely are the ones who tolerate doing terrible things in order to make the world a better place.
The moment a Good Person is free to kill, torture, and do other acts in the pursuit of the "Greater Good" then is the moment there's no real distinction between good and evil. Fzoul Chembyrl believes he's building a better future for the people of Zhentil Keep and Obould Many Arrows does the same for his Orcs.
So, yes, she can forgive and maybe keep Lathander's light but this is definitely something where condoning the act should shift her alignment to neutral.
No one's saying it's WRONG in the game. However, moral issues by the gods are a different story.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2007 : 09:47:02
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@ sayntfuu: Your quotations are great to stress your point of view. Hwoever, you need to keep in mind that those might represent only general guidelines and might not reflect the personal dogma of each and every lathandrite!
- A peaceloving and caring cleric might fight undead and evil creatures with all of his/her abilities but refreign from using methods like torture simply because e.g. it would set her on one level with the evil she is fighting.
- Or she/he might refreign from useing such methods as she/he is physically/mentally just not capable of doing such a veil act. (after all I could imagine pulling out fingernails of a living person must be... I cannot imagine actually!  ).
- Or She/he might not have had any bad experience with orcs so far, growing up in a protected city that had little trouble with humanoids in her lifetime.
- There are so many individual background influences that shape a character in individual way that it is nearly impossible to agrue against the behavior of a character.
- And lastly, the 'End-of-discussion'-argument: The DM sais so!  |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 02 Nov 2007 : 16:12:23
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| Right, there's no reason why each cleric of Lathander would feel exactly the same way on any single issue. In the end, the DM is the one playing this cleric, so it's his (her?) call. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Brynweir
Senior Scribe
USA
436 Posts |
Posted - 06 Nov 2007 : 14:40:13
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| I think the idea of trying to reform the character is a great reason for her to stay. However, you'd have to be careful about how much the cleric would tolerate. Just being around evil and allowing it to happen has to effect her alignment. |
Anyone who likes to read something that's really dark and gritty and completely awesome ought to read The Night Angel Trilogy by Brent Weeks. You can check out a little taste at www.BrentWeeks.com I should probably warn you, though, that it is definitely not PG-13 :-D
He also started a new Trilogy with Black Prism, which may even surpass the Night Angel Trilogy in its awesomeness. 
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Clerics of Lathander and torture of 'evil' beings
