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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Oct 2007 : 16:55:25
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it seems to me War mages are slighly underpowered. does anyone see a problem with giving them average base attack bonus progression and a hit die of d8(normally d6). after all they have had combat training
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The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2007 : 17:23:27
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| An armored caster with more spells known than a sorcerer, an equivalent number of spells per day, and a number of other benefits over the core sorcerer is not underpowered. Even if one grants that the PH sorcerer is lacking something (I certainly do), the warmage easily makes up for its shortcomings; there's little reason to make the class more powerful. |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2007 : 17:38:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
An armored caster with more spells known than a sorcerer, an equivalent number of spells per day, and a number of other benefits over the core sorcerer is not underpowered. Even if one grants that the PH sorcerer is lacking something (I certainly do), the warmage easily makes up for its shortcomings; there's little reason to make the class more powerful.
they have less spells than sorcerers, it says so in the very description of the class |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2007 : 17:39:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
An armored caster with more spells known than a sorcerer, an equivalent number of spells per day, and a number of other benefits over the core sorcerer is not underpowered. Even if one grants that the PH sorcerer is lacking something (I certainly do), the warmage easily makes up for its shortcomings; there's little reason to make the class more powerful.
what other benefits(aside armor) do they have? |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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questing gm
Master of Realmslore
Malaysia
1745 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2007 : 17:44:09
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The sudden metamagic class features 
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2007 : 17:51:08
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quote:
Originally posted by questing gm
The sudden metamagic class features
yeah, but wizards can cast most all these spells and if I'm not mistaken can get those as well |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2007 : 17:57:01
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| a wizard is a class canon ... something a Warmage hardly can be called |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2007 : 18:02:54
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| but that doesn't make the warmage any less underpowered... |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2007 : 18:14:01
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Warmage is fine... read it again, ALL of it, and you'll see it too...
PS: if you have not playtested Sudden Maximize for yourself, you can't know the true extent of the power of the Warmage class. Warmages are DEADLY. Trust me... (armor casting is definitely UBER... Mithral Full Plate, anyone?) |
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Hawkins
Great Reader
USA
2131 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2007 : 18:46:37
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| If you want to make the Warmage a little stronger, I suggest you check out Dead Levels II on the WotC website. Also, there is the Warmages with Class article. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2007 : 21:07:42
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>>Warmage is fine... read it again, ALL of it, and you'll see >>it too...
>>PS: if you have not playtested Sudden Maximize for yourself, >>you can't know the true extent of the power of the Warmage >>class. Warmages are DEADLY. Trust me... (armor casting is >>definitely UBER... Mithral Full Plate, anyone?)
I'll grant you the armored casting is nice. HOWEVER, it is VERY easy for a regular wizard to also wear mithral full plate and even carry a heavy shield with it. A simple level of fighter, paladin, or even cleric opens them up to spellsword for a level. That give 10% arcane failure reduction. Having a suit of feycraft mithral full plate with twilight (10% arcane spell failure) and a feycraft mithral heavy shield (0% arcane spell failure) is fully reduced by this one level of spellsword. Note that feycraft AND twilight are both mentioned in the DMG II, and feycraft even mentions mithral full plate, so its not like the authors didn't know about all these options. With the somatic weaponry and eschew materials feats, you don't even have to put your weapon and shield away.
Compare that to the warmage, who will have to take the battlecaster (that's it, right) feat in order to wear armor heavier than light... then he'd have to get somatic weaponry and eschew materials to be able to keep his weapons and shield in play (or things like gloves of storing, etc..). The only real bonus to these two builds becomes that a warmage can wear any suit of mithral full plate that comes along, but the wizard can carry a shield even though he will likely have to have his made. In the end, the wizard ends up wearing better armor than the warmage (unless of course, the warmage also takes a level of fighter and then goes spellsword).
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2007 : 21:33:47
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| I'm at work, sans books, but the warmage gets Medium Armor Proficiency and armored caster (medium) at, I believe, 8th level. No feat necessary for a warmage wearing mithral anything. The warmage also has the ability to cast (and proficiency in) light shields. |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2007 : 00:44:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Garen Thal
I'm at work, sans books, but the warmage gets Medium Armor Proficiency and armored caster (medium) at, I believe, 8th level. No feat necessary for a warmage wearing mithral anything. The warmage also has the ability to cast (and proficiency in) light shields.
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2007 : 02:02:37
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Back at das hoos now, so I can jump into my analysis of the warmage fully armed. Essentially, my argument is that the warmage is at least as powerful as the core sorcerer, and an order of magnitude better than a sorcerer focusing on the same suite of spells as the warmage possesses:
-The warmage spells/day table is identical to the sorcerer's spells/day table until the two classes reach 20th level; the sorcerer then gets an extra 9th level spell slot. Advantage to the sorcerer.
-The warmage is capable of casting spells in light armor and while carrying a light shield straight out of the gate. At 8th level, the warmage adds medium armor to this. Advantage: Warmage.
-The sorcerer's HD is d4; the warmage's is d6. Advantage: Warmage.
-The sorcerer has a familar. Advantage: Sorcerer (not everyone agrees, but you get the equivalent of Alertness and one other feat with a familiar).
-The warmage gets four sudden metamagic bonus feats. Advantage: Warmage.
-The warmage gets to apply his Int bonus to every spell that deals hp damage. Advantage: Warmage.
Okay, so you trade a familar and a 9th level spell slot for a bump in hit dice, armored casting, a number of bonus sudden metamagic feats and the warmage edge. Some people might argued that this makes the warmage underpowered in comparison, because he doesn't have the option of selecting which spells he knows; he can just use the list provided. So let's give him a little more.
The warmage gets all the spells on the warmage class list of a given level when that level becomes available. He also gets the advanced learning class feature, adding additional spells at 3rd, 6th, 11th and 16th levels. This means that the warmage vs. sorcerer spells known looks like this:
Warmage 1--4/13
Sorcerer 1-4/2
Warmage 2--4/13
Sorcerer 2-5/2
Warmage 3--4/13
Sorcerer 3-5/3
Warmage 4--4/13/11
Sorcerer 4-6/ 3/ 1
Warmage 5--4/13/11
Sorcerer 5-6/ 4/ 2
Warmage 6--4/13/11/10
Sorcerer 6-7/ 4/ 2/ 1
Warmage 7--4/13/11/10
Sorcerer 7-7/ 5/ 3/ 2
Warmage 8--4/13/11/10/12
Sorcerer 8-8/ 5/ 3/ 2/1
Warmage 9--4/13/11/10/12
Sorcerer 9-8/ 5/ 4/ 3/ 2
Warmage 10--4/13/11/10/12/7
Sorcerer 10-9/ 5/ 4/ 3/ 2/1
Warmage 11--4/13/11/10/12/7
Sorcerer 11-9/ 5/ 5/ 4/ 3/2
Warmage 12--4/13/11/10/12/7/8
Sorcerer 12-9/ 5/ 5/ 4/ 3/2/1
Warmage 13--4/13/11/10/12/7/8
Sorcerer 13-9/ 5/ 5/ 4/ 4/3/2
Warmage 14--4/13/11/10/12/7/8/8
Sorcerer 14-9/ 5/ 5/ 4/ 4/3/2/1
Warmage 15--4/13/11/10/12/7/8/8
Sorcerer 15-9/ 5/ 5/ 4/ 4/4/3/2
Warmage 16--4/13/11/10/12/7/8/8/7
Sorcerer 16-9/ 5/ 5/ 4/ 4/4/3/2/1
Warmage 17--4/13/11/10/12/7/8/8/7
Sorcerer 17-9 5 5 4 4 4 3 3 2
Warmage 18--4/13/11/10/12/7/8/8/7/6
Sorcerer 18-9/ 5/ 5/ 4/ 4/4/3/3/2/1
Warmage 19--4/13/11/10/12/7/8/8/7/6
Sorcerer 19-9/ 5/ 5/ 4/ 4/4/3/3/3/2
Warmage 20--4/13/11/10/12/7/8/8/7/6
Sorcerer 20-9/ 5/ 5/ 4/ 4/4/3/3/3/3
Discounting 0-level spells, and counting for the warmage edge used at opitmum levels, the warmage will have twice as many spells known of any given level than a sorcerer of the same level. At any given spell level, a warmage starts off knowing more spells than a sorcerer will ever know.
The warmage is a lot of things, but underpowered isn't one of them. |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2007 : 03:02:02
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| Amen to that! |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2007 : 13:33:16
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And I agree with this. One of my players play with a fighter 1/ warmage 3 / future Raumathari Battlemage...
With the feat Dreadful Wrath, this guy is one that give me (as DM) more "trouble" in the encounters. :) |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
Facebook: yuri.peixoto |
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undercat
Acolyte
1 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2007 : 05:49:19
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Oh, warmages are underpowered*. It has nothing to do with spells per day, or class features, but rather their spell list. All damage, no utility (oh, and those sor/wiz spells they can add? Have to be evoc). They're completely unable to contribute to the party outside of combat, and in combat they can only deal damage (and other classes do it better). The v. basic problem with a warmage is that they add nothing to the party. They don't fulfill any of the four basic roles; they certainly don't serve as the party archivist (no control, no buffs, no divination, no save-or-suck, etc).
Want to make them better? Don't just stop with a d8 hp and moderate bab: expand their spell list. Add simple defense spells (mage armor, shield, etc) and a couple control spells. You're still left with them being not that useful outside of combat, but they're hardly the only class that suffers from that.
*comparatively so, of course. They're certainly stronger than a samurai or a monk. |
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Dolfan
Acolyte
Canada
17 Posts |
Posted - 28 Oct 2007 : 07:09:16
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I actually think that Warmage is along the lines of what the sorcerer should have been when 3.0 first came out, but that's a whole different discussion.
If I just sat down and looked at the class, I would probably allow myself to be convinced that the Warmage is underpowered, but having seen it in action several times, I have to say that it's certainly not.
Yes, they are only good in combat and outside of combat they won't provide much. Big deal. A fighter is generally going to be in the same boat. The fact is that when you start getting things like a sudden maximized greater fireburst getting tossed around, encounters become wildly different to have to plan for. Toss in the fact that they get armored spellcasting and the warmage edge and you've got a formidable combat caster. |
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Shilo99
Seeker
63 Posts |
Posted - 25 Dec 2007 : 14:25:56
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Having seen the warmage in action in games, I agree that they are not underpowered versus the sorceror.
Like other posters have said, they are severely limited in the spell choice and thus role: they are merely heavy artillery for the party. Still, what they do they do well, and at the end of the day, game time for most groups focuses on combat. Like many of the other classes from outside the PHB, they make a great 5th PC in the party...
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New modification to war mages
