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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Sep 2005 : 20:33:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Feanor
The year when BG2 takes place is 1369 DR. The date in the main character's journal specify that. Those small references to events after 1369 I consider them just Bioware's carelessness.
I don't. Also, the offical Baldur's Gate FAQ dates (1370-1371) contradicted the dates from the in-game novel.
Anyway, it doesn't matter that much. The Baldur's Gate saga isn't the type of story where the dates are of paramount importance. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Melfius
Senior Scribe
USA
516 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2005 : 21:46:30
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| Does anyone foresee a return of Bhaal anytime soon? (ala Bane) |
Melfius, Pixie-Priest of Puck - Head Chef, The Faerie Kitchen, Candlekeep Inn
"What's in his pockets, besides me?"
Read a tale of my earlier days! - Happiness Comes in Small Packages |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2005 : 22:43:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Melfius
Does anyone foresee a return of Bhaal anytime soon? (ala Bane)
Gods, I hope not... I hope that we've got all of the returns out of the way. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Melfius
Senior Scribe
USA
516 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2005 : 22:44:58
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| Naw, there's plenty more returns left out there! |
Melfius, Pixie-Priest of Puck - Head Chef, The Faerie Kitchen, Candlekeep Inn
"What's in his pockets, besides me?"
Read a tale of my earlier days! - Happiness Comes in Small Packages |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2005 : 22:44:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Melfius
Does anyone foresee a return of Bhaal anytime soon? (ala Bane)
Who knows? But like Wooly I'm rather tired of the "old things returning" trend myself. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 15 Sep 2005 : 06:03:54
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Me I'd like to see the return of Elminster's hat Apart from that - no, please no more risen anew gods (except possibly that slumbering Jhaamdathan god of psionics). |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 20 Sep 2005 : 23:13:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Kajehase
Me I'd like to see the return of Elminster's hat Apart from that - no, please no more risen anew gods (except possibly that slumbering Jhaamdathan god of psionics).
I'd like his hat to come back too. :)
My attitude about Bhaal coming back is this. He tried already, and he failed. The story is over, let it rest already. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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hashimashadoo
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1152 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2006 : 00:10:59
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OK: Canon as far as I understand it is any work that has been published in a WOTC (or TSR for that matter) source. This includes sourcebooks, Dragon magazine, Dungeon magazine, and novels set in the setting in question.
The Baldur's Gate series has been published in novellized form, thus it is canon (however bad the books may be). What happened in the Bhaalspawn saga is what happened in the Baldur's Gate novels.
You do not have to implement exactly what happened in the book if you want to base your campaign around the saga. It is your campaign, you are the DM, thus you can do anything you want. But, according to the official sources you will be going against canon.
For example: if your Bhaalspawn joined Bodhi's theives guild rather than Aran Linvail's, that is how you play it but it is NOT how it happened according to Realmslore. It happened in your campaign (and anyone else's who wanted to play it like that.) but it didn't happen anywhere else.
As such. The Bhaalspawn was called Abdel Adrian.
I have personally never read the books but since Abdel Adrian is not a god (for good or evil) I can deduce that he gave up his divinity. The only Bhaalspawn left (if any) are the weakest of the dead god's progeny (thus they didn't get noticed to be killed by the other Bhaalspawn/people trying to kill ALL Bhaalspawn) and aren't likely to take on his mantle. So unless someone publishes something new about Bhaal being resurrected. There's not a lot of chance of it ever happening.
So, Bhaal is a dead god with a couple of temples and a few followers...a lot like Amaunator, Myrkul, Moander, Ibrandul, etc.
Never say never, though. Bane was resurrected. Maybe some author will decide to resurrect a dead god somehow. Maybe you could become an author and, if you're good enough you can make a canon resurrection.
I would recommend Myrkul. |
When life turns it's back on you...sneak attack for extra damage.
Head admin of the FR wiki:
https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/ |
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Vvornth
Acolyte
Sweden
48 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2006 : 01:53:59
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| The problem with resurrecting old gods is that you risk inviting the Marvel syndrome. That is, your fanbase stops taking your "serious" events seriously because they can always be un-made later. For me that is the worst thing that can happen to a fictional universe. |
It's good to be king |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2006 : 02:20:28
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| How can you say that? I have been deeply moved each and every time Jean Grey has died . . . and how can you say that Colossus' death means nothing, just because he didn't stay dead. And how about when Aunt May died, huh? Or, um . . . point made . . . (Death in permanent in the Marvel Universe only if you are Bucky) |
Edited by - KnightErrantJR on 04 Jan 2006 02:21:16 |
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Volo
Seeker
Canada
58 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2006 : 13:23:31
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Here's a scary thought. Abdel Adrian may well /be/ a god. It may be that he just hasn't gotten his affairs in order yet; consider Kelemvor. Even though he was raised after the his partners, (Mystra/Midnight and Cyric), it still took him yet LONGER, about a year or so, to actually declare himself. Granted, it's been four years since Abdel passed/rose/died/whatever-the-nine-hellsed, but who's to say he didn't actually rise as a god? Without a portfolio, granted, given that Bhaal's portfolio is rather firmly under the control of Cyric. Which could explain why he hasn't declared himself yet.
Abdel Adrian: I am a god! (cue thunder and lightning)
Average Realmsian: Oh, yeah? What of?
A.A.: Um... that doesn't matter! I am a god! (cue more thunder and lightning)
A.R.: Well, ye need tae be god /of/ something if ye want me as a worshipper! Who ever heard of a god of being a god?!?
A.A.: But... I am a god! (cue bad tinfoil shaking and obvious special effects)
A.R.: Oooookay. Get back to me on that.
You can see his problem. And since deities in the Realms are tied to their worshippers' belief, he may well be trying his devine damndest to wrest a portfolio from one of the other deities, or to establish one of his own from things that don't have a deity over them yet -- and soon, lest he die of lack of worship.
Of course, the above is entirely speculation, and frankly speculation I hope doesn't come true, since like the rest of you I hated those novels!!! |
Volo's misunderstood. He's not an idiot. He's a FLAMING idiot! |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2006 : 16:18:38
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| It's speculation that has no basis in fact, because at the end of the novels he gave up his divinity. I.E. the Spark of Bhaal that was within him. He is just a "normal" mortal now. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Beirnadri Magranth
Senior Scribe
USA
720 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2006 : 16:39:15
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| i dont even think the city of suldenesselar exists so the dates wouldnt be important bc the story isnt really canon. the bhaalspawn situation is canon tho. but you can make up your own timeline.... as you already have by now (seeing as this thread is from 03!!!!) |
"You came here to be a martyr in a great big bang of glory... instead you will die with a whimper."
::moussaoui tries to interrupt::
"You will never get a chance to speak again and that's an appropriate ending."
-Judge Brinkema |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2006 : 16:55:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Beirnadri Magranth
i dont even think the city of suldenesselar exists so the dates wouldnt be important bc the story isnt really canon. the bhaalspawn situation is canon tho. but you can make up your own timeline.... as you already have by now (seeing as this thread is from 03!!!!)
As I answered to you before, yes that city does exist in published sourcebooks. Volo's Guide to BG II and Lands of Intrigue or Empires of the Shining Sea.
And the story in the novels is canon since WOTC lists it as such and the authors have said it is, game designers have said it is, and the chars were stated in Dragon articles in 2e. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 02 Feb 2006 16:59:50 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2006 : 17:15:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Beirnadri Magranth
i dont even think the city of suldenesselar exists so the dates wouldnt be important bc the story isnt really canon. the bhaalspawn situation is canon tho. but you can make up your own timeline.... as you already have by now (seeing as this thread is from 03!!!!)
As I answered to you before, yes that city does exist in published sourcebooks. Volo's Guide to BG II and Lands of Intrigue or Empires of the Shining Sea.
And I'm pretty sure I did as well -- and it was both... LoI and EotSS.
Boy... this just keeps going round and round doesn't? I'll have to double my efforts to complete my FR FAQ for Candlekeep I think  .
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2006 : 17:25:33
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Boy... this just keeps going round and round doesn't? I'll have to double my efforts to complete my FR FAQ for Candlekeep I think .
Cough,
Actually you need to redouble your efforts to send me a certain outline since there's only about a month left to write a certain article. I'm giving you a deadline of mid Feb or I'm going to scrap the idea. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2006 : 17:42:07
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quote:
Originally posted by KujeActually you need to redouble your efforts to send me a certain outline since there's only about a month left to write a certain article.
Not really... since I'm basically done. Just waiting for a OK from Ed...
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Beirnadri Magranth
Senior Scribe
USA
720 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2006 : 20:29:56
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its "canon" just not CANON. the story had too many errors to be really CANON. but it doesn't matter
i dont remember talking about suldenessellar before but w/e |
"You came here to be a martyr in a great big bang of glory... instead you will die with a whimper."
::moussaoui tries to interrupt::
"You will never get a chance to speak again and that's an appropriate ending."
-Judge Brinkema |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2006 : 20:36:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Beirnadri Magranth
its "canon" just not CANON. the story had too many errors to be really CANON. but it doesn't matter
i dont remember talking about suldenessellar before but w/e
Sure, whatever you say even though it is CANON as you want to name it. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31774 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2006 : 01:01:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Beirnadri Magranth
its "canon" just not CANON. the story had too many errors to be really CANON. but it doesn't matter
i dont remember talking about suldenessellar before but w/e
The Bhaalspawn saga is canon regardless of what knife you use to cut it... If it's referenced in the Realmslore and has been discussed, as canon, by game designers... then it has had just as much support as any other piece of officially recognised canon Realmslore.
Thus, it is canon -- pure and simple -- not "canon-lite" or "canon-zero"... just canon.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Zémobiel
Acolyte
Canada
2 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2006 : 20:29:41
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I will end you discution right here, you want canon i give you a canon...
In the Book Lost Empire of Faerun, in the chapter of the Dead God, in the entry about Bhaal, they say that the Spawn of Bhaal still walk on Faerun and war each other... |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2006 : 23:33:14
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What did I say a few months back about the word "canon"?
It's a stupid word. I prefer "official". "Canon" makes it seem like we are talking about matters of life and death here.  |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 23 Feb 2006 23:33:29 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 23 Feb 2006 : 23:36:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Zémobiel
I will end you discution right here, you want canon i give you a canon...
In the Book Lost Empire of Faerun, in the chapter of the Dead God, in the entry about Bhaal, they say that the Spawn of Bhaal still walk on Faerun and war each other...
What's funny is that kinda contradicts other lore--not just from the game, but I think from the novels too. I don't recall the Throne of Bhaal novel mentioning that there were many Bhaalspawn left to battle each other... |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 19 Sep 2006 : 16:26:59
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| I enoyed the story from the games very much...I even use the main plot as having happened in my campaign (other than the side quests like kiling the Twisted Rune...like hello!!??) |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Lenora Ilvastarr
Acolyte
USA
22 Posts |
Posted - 27 Sep 2006 : 19:05:54
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Our group has used the BG saga as well, but more as something that's happening elsewhere. Events that aren't affecting us, but we were hearing the rumors and all nonetheless.
However, I was perusing the Roll of Years recently and noticed something. The character in the computer game is 18 years old at the start of the saga. At least, that's what I recall. 18 years after the ToT is 1376DR
The Year of the Bent Blade.
Hmmm, the Iron Crisis along the Sword Coast possibly?
Now, you never know what the designers have planned, but it is something to think about. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 29 Oct 2006 : 21:51:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Lenora Ilvastarr
Our group has used the BG saga as well, but more as something that's happening elsewhere. Events that aren't affecting us, but we were hearing the rumors and all nonetheless.
However, I was perusing the Roll of Years recently and noticed something. The character in the computer game is 18 years old at the start of the saga. At least, that's what I recall. 18 years after the ToT is 1376DR
The Year of the Bent Blade.
Hmmm, the Iron Crisis along the Sword Coast possibly?
Now, you never know what the designers have planned, but it is something to think about.
The character in the games is 20 years old, but was not necessarily born during the Time of Troubles. Bhaal walked the planet and spread his wild oats before he was actually forced to become a mortal. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 29 Oct 2006 21:52:47 |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2007 : 01:19:40
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The whole Bhaalspawn plot of the Baldur's Gate game series frankly never made much sense to me.
Just how did Bhaal envision getting himself resurrected through creating "a score of mortal progeny?" (To use the words of the prophet Alaundo.)
In BG1 we know that Sarevok set out to incite a massive war, beginning with Baldur's Gate versus Amn, and hopefully spreading all throughout Faerun. He wanted to use the metaphysical energy of the death toll caused by a great war to somehow raise Bhaal. Yet he confuses the matter by talking about either himself or the protagonist seizing the opportunity instead to become the "new Lord of Murder."
It gets further confused in Throne of Bhaal with the semi-divine but mortal offspring of Bhaal running around, each with some of Bhaal's essence, causing the "Bhaalspawn Wars." At first glance, this almost sounds like Sarevok's plan coming to fruition.
But it seems Sarevok's plan was evidently not what Bhaal had in mind, after all. Near as I can tell, Bhaal simply wants for at least one of his offspring to become powerful enough that it amplifies Bhaal's essence, enough to bring Bhaal back to life. Having said that, I will confess that the details of Throne of Bhaal make almost no sense to me.
Can someone please break down the "Bhaalspawn" saga? |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2007 : 02:07:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Lemernis
In BG1 we know that Sarevok set out to incite a massive war, beginning with Baldur's Gate versus Amn, and hopefully spreading all throughout Faerun. He wanted to use the metaphysical energy of the death toll caused by a great war to somehow raise Bhaal. Yet he confuses the matter by talking about either himself or the protagonist seizing the opportunity instead to become the "new Lord of Murder."
Personally, I took Sarevok's plan as exactly that...Sarevok's plan based on his own interpretation of what he learned about Bhaal (and he probably saw what he wanted to see here, too), not necessarily the plan that Bhaal had in mind.
That being said, the Bhaalspawn saga is not and never was completely free of plot holes and things that simply don't make much sense. Like many fantasy plots involving gods, it's quite absurd. The people who worked on the first game aren't necessarily the same people who worked on the second game...that should say something right there. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 16 Feb 2007 02:07:20 |
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Lemernis
Senior Scribe
378 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2007 : 14:12:21
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The only thing that makes sense to me is that Bhaal was attempting what Bane actually achieved. Bane used his semi-divine son Iyachtu Xvim as a kind of cocoon to regenerate himself and be reborn through.
Abdel Adrian the other Bhaalspawn evidently are serving the same purpose for Bhaal. Abdel is the official canon character for the saga's inclusion into canon, based on the novelizations of the games.
The novelization of Throne of Bhaal by Drew Karpyshyn is now out of print. But if I understand correctly (?), Abdel opts neither to raise Bhaal or assume his portfolio for himself. He elects to remain a semi-divine mortal. (? Can someone who has the book please confirm this?)
I guess there's nothing beyond a coincidental relationship between Sarevok's plan and the 'Bhaalspawn Wars'.
I suppose there may be other Bhaalspawn out there that Abdel didn't manage to kill. Wikipedia states,
quote:
Issue number #288 of Dragon Magazine contains an article detailing Bhaalspawn for 3rd Edition Dungeons and Dragons, enabling a Gamesmaster to effectively reecreate the Baldur's Gate series of games for their own campaign, or to play a "post-games" campaign where not all of the Bhaalspawn were slain and where they retained the fragment of Bhaal's essence.
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Edited by - Lemernis on 16 Feb 2007 15:49:36 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2007 : 16:17:08
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| Abdel gives up every part of Bhaal's power at the end of the novels, effectively making him just a normal mortal while a upper planar takes Bhaal's essence and scatters it across the multiverse. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Bhaalspawn saga
