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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Oct 2007 : 23:07:04
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Any you feel that there are characters that shouldn't have been killed off? The Drow wizard Pharuan had loads of potential (enough to give Gromph pause) with wit and guile on par with Jarlaxe. I think he could he could have actually carried a series on his own...
Mod Edit: Altered the scroll's title to reflect the spoilers more accurately.
Mod Edit 2: Shifted to a more appropriate shelf.
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Edited by - The Sage on 15 Oct 2007 00:56:08
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2007 : 01:29:41
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I quite liked the byplay between Pharuan and Ryld. I was most upset when they both kicked the bucket  By the end of Resurrection I remember thinking if Valas didn't make it back to Menzoberranzan I would have a fit. I liked the three of them, but I found it a little odd that the least developed "main" character in WotSQ was one of the two that made it back home. |
Rants and reviews that interest no one may be found here. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2007 : 11:01:44
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Matter of fact, it didn't show the the drow as "utterly evil scum". You had that opportunistic, power-aspiring evil mage chap in Pharaun (whom I did not exactly like), the typical CN-and-thus--not-that-evil and hence doomed chap in Ryld, the power-hungry and dominating High Priestess in Quenthel and two archetypical "NE" drow characters in Danifae and Valas (even though their alignment was not NE). These two, IMHO, played right up to how I think the "average" normal drow works best.
(And yes, I left Halisstra out of the equation on purpose.) |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 15 Oct 2007 : 23:44:45
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| Dunno, but "utterly evil scum" is not what I think of when speaking about drow. Then again, if you say straight forwardly that you are loving elves or other threehuggers, I'd have a reasonable explanation for your wording. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2007 : 20:42:19
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| Pharaun was a jerk. I haven't finished the series yet, but I'm not unhappy that he died. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2007 : 22:58:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Pharaun was a jerk. I haven't finished the series yet, but I'm not unhappy that he died.
Well, what did you expect from a Drow male?  |
Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2007 : 23:16:08
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quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Pharaun was a jerk. I haven't finished the series yet, but I'm not unhappy that he died.
Well, what did you expect from a Drow male?
Great point.
But there is an ineffable quality about some villains that makes me like them, and not want them to die. For some reason, Pharaun didn't have that quality. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 10:17:31
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Let's put it this way: had he not known that the priestesses were bereft of spells, he would not have played the role he did. Matter of factly, had the priestesses their spells any earlier or had he not been required to do his arcane job, he'd* be dead long before they ventured into the Demonwebs again.
IMHO, he was far too much the rebellious male and clearly played up to the tune males players so delight in: thwarting powerful and dominating females (whether they are black-skinned pointy-eared or not).
*Or the priestesses ... depends on game variables, the authors' intention and what have you. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 18 Oct 2007 10:18:24 |
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Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 15:05:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Pharaun was a jerk. I haven't finished the series yet, but I'm not unhappy that he died.
Well, what did you expect from a Drow male?
Great point.
But there is an ineffable quality about some villains that makes me like them, and not want them to die. For some reason, Pharaun didn't have that quality.
True - I think the thing with the WotSQ series is that we get a lot of people thrown at us. Other than Quenthal (sp), Triel (awesome), and Gromph, we have never seen the majority of these characters. These books, as guided by RAS, are driven by a sense of action and urgency against well, sort of an unknown bad guy (meaning, the silence of Lolth). I think it just adds to the fact we never get to know the characters, and we have to assign the title of good guy/bad guy, rather than protagonist/antagonist; all in all, I think that leads to the rather slight flushing out of Pharaun, not allowing him to achieve that quality. All we get is a arrogant, snobish and powerful Drow male Wizard.
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Still rockin' the Fey'ri style. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 17:57:38
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Indeed, what turns me off about these novels (why I've put off reading the final four books for so long) is the fact that the reader is basically expected to be rooting for evil drow characters who, for the most part, don't deserve any sympathy. Pharaun certainly didn't earn any sympathy from me! If he got devoured by crab in the first book I wouldn't have cared.
Although, I think what Zanan said might be true as well--that Pharaun is in fact a men's wish fulfillment character. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4689 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 18:39:09
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| Hmm, from rime to time I have seen posts complaining about Good winning too often. That fans wanted to see evil win more often. That might have been a factor of why some people did root for Evil Drow. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2007 : 19:59:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Hmm, from rime to time I have seen posts complaining about Good winning too often. That fans wanted to see evil win more often.
I can say with certainty that I am not a member of that group. I do advocate evil characters being intelligent adversaries and interesting (even sympathetic) characters, but not necessarily evil characters as protagonists. Or, for that matter, antagonists ultimately triumphing over protagonists (and yes, there is a poster on the WotC who is calling for just that). |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 18 Oct 2007 20:01:34 |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2007 : 07:01:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I do advocate evil characters being intelligent adversaries and interesting (even sympathetic) characters, but not necessarily evil characters as protagonists. Or, for that matter, antagonists ultimately triumphing over protagonists (and yes, there is a poster on the WotC who is calling for just that).
Strangley enough, evil doesn't really win in this series. More like an equilibrium is reached and the only one who comes out ahead really is Lolth.
I more enjoyed watching the dynamic of a predominately evil adventuring party hiking through the Underdark, but that's just me. The overall feel of it was more like a game of Call of Cthulu with every character trying to outrun his or her friends from the big nasty whatsit. Dissolution even had a tentacle faced creature (the alhoon) that Pharuan tried to throw Ryld at.
The other main character I came to appriciate a good deal more was Gomph. I may try to include him in an underdark campaign ^.^ To say nothing of how I loved the way his spellbattle with Dyrr was written.
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
IMHO, he was far too much the rebellious male and clearly played up to the tune males players so delight in: thwarting powerful and dominating females (whether they are black-skinned pointy-eared or not).
I suppose I would fall into the "rabid Drow fan-girl" category then.  In all seriousness, though, I've a soft spot for snarky scoundel fiction characters. I wonder what male players you speak of though, that isn't a problem I run into very often. On the other hand I am sometimes the DM, so maybe it still works there too. |
Rants and reviews that interest no one may be found here. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2007 : 19:11:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Fellshot
Dissolution even had a tentacle faced creature (the alhoon) that Pharuan tried to throw Ryld at.
See, I *did* feel some sympathy for Ryld, so that scene provided me with yet another reason not to like Pharaun. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 19 Oct 2007 : 22:59:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Lady Fellshot
I suppose I would fall into the "rabid Drow fan-girl" category then. In all seriousness, though, I've a soft spot for snarky scoundel fiction characters. I wonder what male players you speak of though, that isn't a problem I run into very often. On the other hand I am sometimes the DM, so maybe it still works there too.
Easy enough to explain. Most Drizzt-look-alike players and male-drow-renegade players fall into this category. Which is not a bad thing. mind you. It's just oh so lame: "Look, I am a drow renegade who does not likes to be oppressed by those (evil) women. I come to the surface and want to be a good guy and to show for it, I'll go against any evil drow (i.e. mostly females or female-lead) that happens by." And this holds true for Drizzt-clones as much as Vhaeraun-follower players.
Evil ... well, quite a number of recent heroes have been evil ones, but described in a reasonable fashion. Dark Heroes/-oines, as Mrs. Cunningham once put it. And the good thing about some of these last novels is that authors have indeed started to gives "shades of evil", instead of the old "evils is just bad and needs to be vanquished, end of story" stuff. Thus you get down to the core half-mad evil folk, sinister and cunning plotters as well as folk which you could actually like, if they would stop killing the odd person for no other reason than advancing themselves or extract some info. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Lady Fellshot
Senior Scribe
USA
379 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2007 : 02:37:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Easy enough to explain. Most Drizzt-look-alike players and male-drow-renegade players fall into this category. Which is not a bad thing. mind you. It's just oh so lame: "Look, I am a drow renegade who does not likes to be oppressed by those (evil) women. I come to the surface and want to be a good guy and to show for it, I'll go against any evil drow (i.e. mostly females or female-lead) that happens by." And this holds true for Drizzt-clones as much as Vhaeraun-follower players.
Ah, the "society is wrong and so I must leave the underdark without further ado or explination" crowd. I see your point. And I thank you for the clarification. I think it would be less lame if they took the time to explain the route by which this conculsion was reached or if there were reasons other than society and religious preferances.
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Rants and reviews that interest no one may be found here. |
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
Posted - 20 Oct 2007 : 03:03:59
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I think everyone roots for the underdog when they're oppressed. I think male readers equally root for female ones escaping male domination in fiction.
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My Blog: http://unitedfederationofcharles.blogspot.com/
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Question- spoilers for War of the Spider Queen
