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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Oct 2007 : 21:08:14
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Last night's game was just awful. After a great start to the campaign last week, the party arrived in Port Castigliar. In my opinion, the Jungles of Chult is one of the most deadly places in all a Faerun and I wanted to to feel that way to the party as well. After the catfolk got eaten by a Greenvise from MMII, the monk and paladin headed toward Mezro to pick up a guide. Then, during a random encounter with some lizardfolk, the paladin gets killed with the first hit (I rolled a 20, 20, 20, 18). To make things even worse, the paladin I killed is the one that sirreus has been working on for months, he had 73 hand-written pages of backstory for this guy, and I really liked the character.
What are some of the heart-wrenching things any of you have had to do while DMing?
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War to slay, not to fight long and glorious.
Aermhar of the Tangletrees
Year of the Hooded Falcon
Xysma's Gallery
Guide to the Tomes and Tales of the Realms download from Candlekeep
Anthologies and Tales Overviews
Check out my custom action figures, hand-painted miniatures, gaming products, and other stuff on eBay.
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riot the outsider
Learned Scribe
USA
121 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2007 : 21:35:37
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| Why don't you just let the guy play with the character still,I know he died but who cares. |
Those who fear the darkness have never seen what the light can do. http://s13.gladiatus.com/game/c.php?uid=67846
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Calrond
Learned Scribe
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 11 Oct 2007 : 22:55:31
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| Because of the properties of the Resurrection spell, all they have to do is snip off a finger or a hand and carry it with them, and resurrect him later on. Until then, he can play one of the Chultan natives or sit the game out. No need to scrap a good character because of some crappy roles. This is a fantasy game, so there are ways around death. Don't let it get you down. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2007 : 01:00:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
To make things even worse, the paladin I killed is the one that sirreus has been working on for months, he had 73 hand-written pages of backstory for this guy, and I really liked the character.
Holy crap. That really sucks, and I agree that leaving resurrection open as a possibility might be a good idea, if all parties involved are OK with it. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 12 Oct 2007 01:00:58 |
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scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2007 : 01:11:48
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do over.. do over  Sometimes, when my rolls are decimating the party, I fudge the numbers. I roll behind a screen. Unless the characters are just being bone heads. overall game enjoyment is my goal.
that many pages of backstory and I would be wanting some sort of resurrection. However, even a destroyed party can be a fun memorable event |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2007 : 01:27:32
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quote:
Originally posted by scererar
do over.. do over Sometimes, when my rolls are decimating the party, I fudge the numbers. I roll behind a screen. Unless the characters are just being bone heads. overall game enjoyment is my goal.
Or drop D&D and find an RPG that fits your style of play. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2007 : 01:55:51
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| Please, not this debate again... |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2007 : 02:08:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Please, not this debate again...
Sorry, but with a thread titled "Sometimes I hate DMing" I can't answer anything else than : hey maybe it's because D&D doesn't offer what you are looking for in an RPG. |
Edited by - Skeptic on 12 Oct 2007 02:08:56 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2007 : 02:10:19
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| Well, one can love a hobby, but still dislike certain aspects of it. *shrug* |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2007 : 02:37:37
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| Agrees with Rino, not this again. Sigh. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2007 : 04:11:18
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I agree with not revisiting that debate, that was certainly not my intention. 
Normally, I would've fudged it, but after I said "Uh-Oh, nat 20" some eyes were on the dice, after the second nat 20, ALL eyes were on the dice, after the third one, well, I was too stunned to react and just rolled again to get the 18. One thing I know with absolute certainty about sirreus is that he never alows his characters to be resurrected. I think one time in eight years I tricked him into it with some divine intervention, but that didn't work this time. |
War to slay, not to fight long and glorious.
Aermhar of the Tangletrees
Year of the Hooded Falcon
Xysma's Gallery
Guide to the Tomes and Tales of the Realms download from Candlekeep
Anthologies and Tales Overviews
Check out my custom action figures, hand-painted miniatures, gaming products, and other stuff on eBay.
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2007 : 04:15:58
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quote:
Originally posted by riot the outsider
Why don't you just let the guy play with the character still,I know he died but who cares.
I tried it, I said, "Let's just pretend this didn't happen." He just wasn't down for that. The dice rolls are part of the game, and I think it's a good thing. It is entirely possible that no matter how tough your character is, a lizardfolk may get a lucky shot and cave your head in for instant death. But as a DM, knowing how much effort went into that character, I hated being the one to roll them bones. |
War to slay, not to fight long and glorious.
Aermhar of the Tangletrees
Year of the Hooded Falcon
Xysma's Gallery
Guide to the Tomes and Tales of the Realms download from Candlekeep
Anthologies and Tales Overviews
Check out my custom action figures, hand-painted miniatures, gaming products, and other stuff on eBay.
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2007 : 04:39:48
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Hmm okay, a guy comes here and explains us a situation where the game forced him to do something he doesn't feel right and that he hated it.
Answering by telling him that it's a D&D specific issue and that some different solutions exist to avoid this situation is ruled out by moderation ?   |
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Pasta Fzoul
Seeker
USA
79 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2007 : 04:52:10
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| This doesn't sound like such a bad situation, actually. The player obviously takes his characters seriously, and wants them treated as such. He was apparently satisfied that the situation was "just," so you shouldn't feel bad about facilitating it :) |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2007 : 06:28:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
Answering by telling him that it's a D&D specific issue and that some different solutions exist to avoid this situation is ruled out by moderation ?
I'm not ruling out the possibility of suggesting that other RPGs may offer something of alternative interest for Xysma. I'm merely reminding you all that the debate we previously had about the pros and cons of the D&D setting, when last we covered this topic, is not something I wish to see repeated here.
Xysma's issue with DMing, given the example he provided here, would seem to be something more to do with the general concept of Dungeon-Mastering itself -- rather than with the mechanical aspects of the D&D game. And that's usually not an issue that can be easily solved by simply changing RPGs. Rather, it is something more appropriately handled by attending to one's own Dungeon-Mastering style, when compared to the game.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2007 : 06:53:52
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Xysma's issue with DMing, given the example he provided here, would seem to be something more to do with the general concept of Dungeon-Mastering itself -- rather than with the mechanical aspects of the D&D game. And that's usually not an issue that can be easily solved by simply changing RPGs. Rather, it is something more appropriately handled by attending to one's own Dungeon-Mastering style, when compared to the game.
Would seem to you Sage, but I could argue that it is D&D (and closely related RPG) specific.. but I won't because it's not the kind of debate welcome on these boards |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2007 : 07:03:12
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Just so I'm clear...
You're free to argue all you want... just do so through PMs. While I would be intrigued by the points you could raise, I have to keep in mind, as Moderator, the feelings of ALL scribes here at Candlekeep. And that means making sure that they're all given their due consideration. So, I'm advocating that you simply limit your discussion about the D&D game to PMs, by sending them to the scribes who you're presently discussing this topic with. That way, those who are tired of the public expression of this debate, are happy, and you're also able to continue debating as much as you wish, through the privacy provided by the Personal Messaging system here at Candlekeep.
I can't do much more than that.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2007 : 07:14:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
What are some of the heart-wrenching things any of you have had to do while DMing?
In one of my 2e games the winged elven PC found out her mother was cursed by a red wizard with vampirism and I watched the player glare at me before she started to cry. It broke my heart a bit when they found her mother in Myth Drannor as a insane winged elf that was feasting on anything that was alive in Myth Drannor, so I allowed the group to hunt down the red wizard and cure the PC's winged elven mother since the player wanted to throttle me. It was a bit worse because I used the elven vampire from Ravenloft and they found her in her garden which was dying around her each time the vampire tried to keep the plants alive because the Rloft elven vampire is cursed so that plants die around them.
Now, that group of PC's have been written into the history of my FR canon and every so often the group gets mentioned in my games. Mostly in my single player game since he has ties to the town that that group founded in the Silver Marches.
Other then that... I guess I'm a lenient DM. I hardly kill PC's unless they do something stupid but I make use of their character history and find ways to build different threats or events around the info they supply me. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 12 Oct 2007 07:17:30 |
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Matthus
Senior Scribe
Germany
393 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2007 : 13:33:28
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There was a similar situation once in my campaign, and I understand your concern.
I had the chance to bring in some sort of time storm that brought the party back to the starting point. I gave them all a really hard time and hoped that the dice rolled better. The “hard time” just to let the players know, that I wouldn’t do this every time, and to get the “dead” character into debt with the other players.
This also was a very special situation and needed some help from the whole group, but maybe you could think about something like this in your campaign.
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Apex
Learned Scribe
USA
229 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2007 : 14:29:48
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| Characters dying occasionally is good for the game. There needs to be some fear of permanent death or the game loses much of its appeal, as it is not a video game with saves and resets. |
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Aravine
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2007 : 14:48:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Xysma
Last night's game was just awful. After a great start to the campaign last week, the party arrived in Port Castigliar. In my opinion, the Jungles of Chult is one of the most deadly places in all a Faerun and I wanted to to feel that way to the party as well. After the catfolk got eaten by a Greenvise from MMII, the monk and paladin headed toward Mezro to pick up a guide. Then, during a random encounter with some lizardfolk, the paladin gets killed with the first hit (I rolled a 20, 20, 20, 18). To make things even worse, the paladin I killed is the one that sirreus has been working on for months, he had 73 hand-written pages of backstory for this guy, and I really liked the character.
What are some of the heart-wrenching things any of you have had to do while DMing?
You know, this could work in your favor. What a wonderful plot twist would it be for him to wake up somewhere in chult away from his party. The plot twist is that he has been reincarnated and his party might not recognize him. |
The brave don't live forever,the cautious don't live at all |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 12 Oct 2007 : 16:16:09
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| Hehe or just do like the Knights of the Dinner Table and have him make an exact duplicate of the character but with a different first name and he being his twin brother with the same backstory and can use the same equipment lol just kidding |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Calrond
Learned Scribe
USA
118 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2007 : 03:13:04
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It sounds like the player has accepted it if he refuses to resurrect his characters. As for the 73 pages of backstory, he can now write an end to the story if he likes, showing how his character's life impacted those around him. He can even go farther and tell about how his tragic and untimely death gave the other members of the party pause for concern and a time to reflect on how precious and fragile life can be. The character may be dead, but 73 pages of backstory isn't backstory anymore, it's the first few chapters in a novel.
Also, more unlikely, but if the paladin had any kids, if you play in the future he can have that paladin's son or daughter pick up the mantle of their father and continue his legacy, or have a different outlook on life and a different class. Just some food for thought. |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4273 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2007 : 03:46:43
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If you are worried about this sort of thing happening again, I would speak with your players and rule that you will no longer be using the automatic death ruling. While it can be tragic that a character that is very well liked is permanently removed from the game, it does happen with this rule.
I prefer more heroic games and don't use this rule because of the chance that this very thing can happen. I have house-ruled that if someone is "auto-killed" they are instead dropped to -1 Hit Points and dying.
This means also that 800 HP dragons don't die this way. ;-) |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2007 : 04:45:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Pasta Fzoul
This doesn't sound like such a bad situation, actually. The player obviously takes his characters seriously, and wants them treated as such. He was apparently satisfied that the situation was "just," so you shouldn't feel bad about facilitating it :)
You are absolutely right, and I wouldn't have felt so bad had I not just read his 73 pages of history and this was only the second night of the campaign.  |
War to slay, not to fight long and glorious.
Aermhar of the Tangletrees
Year of the Hooded Falcon
Xysma's Gallery
Guide to the Tomes and Tales of the Realms download from Candlekeep
Anthologies and Tales Overviews
Check out my custom action figures, hand-painted miniatures, gaming products, and other stuff on eBay.
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2007 : 04:55:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Calrond
As for the 73 pages of backstory, he can now write an end to the story if he likes, showing how his character's life impacted those around him. He can even go farther and tell about how his tragic and untimely death gave the other members of the party pause for concern and a time to reflect on how precious and fragile life can be. The character may be dead, but 73 pages of backstory isn't backstory anymore, it's the first few chapters in a novel.
That's what I said, just not quite as poetically. I ended up saying something like, "At least you can finish your story now." Man, I am a jerk.  |
War to slay, not to fight long and glorious.
Aermhar of the Tangletrees
Year of the Hooded Falcon
Xysma's Gallery
Guide to the Tomes and Tales of the Realms download from Candlekeep
Anthologies and Tales Overviews
Check out my custom action figures, hand-painted miniatures, gaming products, and other stuff on eBay.
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 13 Oct 2007 : 05:14:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Alisttair
Hehe or just do like the Knights of the Dinner Table and have him make an exact duplicate of the character but with a different first name and he being his twin brother with the same backstory and can use the same equipment lol just kidding
When I first started playing again, one of the group had apparently been doing just that with a halfling rogue. Each subsequent character was a cousin of the base character, but was essentially a duplicate. As nitpicky as that DM was, I was amazed that he allowed it.
Funny story, as my really stupid half-orc was introduced into the campaign, he awoke in a cavern disoriented to find a magic user standing over him. The mage said something like, "Thanks the gods you're here, there's a demon chasing me. He's right around that corner, disguised as a halfling, kill him and I'll make it worth your while." My dumb but noble half-orc ran around the corner and killed the halfling. Turns out, the halfling was player X's third or fourth halfling cousin. The player immediately got up and told the DM to drive him home and never came back. Being new, I wasn't aware of the group dynamics which had apparently deteriorated to the point that I was the straw that broke the camel's back. |
War to slay, not to fight long and glorious.
Aermhar of the Tangletrees
Year of the Hooded Falcon
Xysma's Gallery
Guide to the Tomes and Tales of the Realms download from Candlekeep
Anthologies and Tales Overviews
Check out my custom action figures, hand-painted miniatures, gaming products, and other stuff on eBay.
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Halidan
Senior Scribe
USA
470 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2007 : 00:34:39
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It doesn't sound like the player is upset, just the DM.
I hate to give advise like, "just get over it and move on" because I know how hard it is to deal with character death from a DM's point of view. However, if the player isn't concerened about it (and it certainly sounds like he's accepted the death if he's refusing to even discuss ressurrection) then there really isn't much you can do about the actual death.
I've DM'd since the mid 1970's and if I've learned one thing it's that characers die. They often do it at really inopertune times. So if you do kill a character, and there's little you can do to erase the death, you should probably try and make the death mean something to the story line.
Given that the campaign was only two weeks old, it might be kinda hard, but maybe you can do something. Perhaps the lizardfolk admire the way the brave paladin fought and they will give him some sort of "honored enemy" status.
Whose in the party beside the paladin? Is there a bard who can compose a song about the fight and the paladin who gave his life to save the party?
Who does the paladin worship? Might his god accept his sacrifice and make him part of the "heavenly host?" I once had a ranger who worshiped the Norse gods and after a brutal combat that lead to his death, the DM wrote up a short passage about my first night feasting in Asgard beside the other warriros of Valhalla. It was really moving.
Even if you can't write something epic, at least provide the player with some closure, noting that the sacrifice was noted by the paladin's deity. Any polayer who writes 73 pages of character background by the second week of the campaign is really focused on the story aspect of roleplaying. He'll write the epic closure, just get him started on the tale.
Also, since you do have 73 pages of character background, what can you pull from it to make the campaign move forward? Unless the rest of the party just abandon's his body to the jungle, they are going to havfe to take his body somewhere for burial. That can be an adventure in itself. How will his temple or family react to the paladin's death? The church may ask that the party revenge the paladin's death. Or they may reward them for bringing the body back. Write a touching burial scene or create a mini-adventure around preparing his tomb.
Those are my initial thoughts. Maybe there is something there you can work with. |
"Over the Mountains
Of the Moon
Down the Valley of the Shadow,
Ride, boldly ride,"
The shade replied,
"If you seek for Eldorado!"
Edgar Allen Poe - 1849 |
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Sometimes I hate DMing...
