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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
 Posted - 13 Nov 2012 : 22:34:19
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It probably is pointless, I agree, but it doesn't mean I won't rant about it  This is something I feel strongly about.
Not everyone likes drow, and not everyone cares about E and V, but they are nevertheless popular enough, at least IMO, to make people want more. I'm not asking for goody-goody drow. Jarlaxle and Phaeraun (and the poor guy died twice) were some of my favorite characters too, along with Q'arlynd. But there were quite a few Eilistraeens I liked too--I was never too fond of Hilisstra, no matter which goddess she followed.
Having every drow book (except for maybe Drizzt) be about Lolthites and no more about Elisitraee or Vhaeraun--or any rebel drow, for that matter--will get just as old as having all Eilistraeens be goody-goody. If WotC is looking for balance, they aren't going to get it this way. I was sincerely hoping the drow would make a comeback in 5e, and with the rumors of the Sundering bringing back the gods, I was hoping that includes V and E. But now, if there isn't going to be anything about them or their followers, what is the point?
And E and V ARE tied to Lolth, as I've said. Every drow book I've read about non-Lolthite drow feature Lolthites as well. E and V being tied to Lolth is huge, IMO, so Wizards is making a huge mistake, IMO, and not to step on any toes, but at least in my opinion, if this proves true, it's the stupidest move since the Spellplague.
Had to get that off my chest. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 14 Nov 2012 : 20:34:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Shere Khan
and Eilstraee's priestesses should well know what they're up against when dealing with Lolthian drow. And yet, it was as if they were all hit with a stupid stick and lobotomized in WotSQ, including Hallistra herself after she converted.
That part made me wonder, too. Though at least they still were gregarious and over-excitable, so if told "lookit, da prophecy is upon us!"... this could be a toss. 
But yeah, despite a few good twists, too many idiot balls were played. Paving the way for the absurdist comedy gold published as sequels and for everything grinding to halt due to subsequent shyness about this crazy stuff failing to lead anywhere meaningful at all.
quote:
Originally posted by Shere Khan
Count me among the legion of fans who were annoyed when Han Solo was edited to not have shot first in the new release of Star Wars.
Han Solo: Yeah. Why wouldn't I?
Darth Vader: I, eh... I don't know the answer on that.
quote:
Originally posted by Shere Khan
Good guys aren't supposed to shoot first you see, it sets a bad example for the children who are watching... *eyeroll*
Well, duh. Didn't your school teach that one should never fight bullies back, the only protection is complaining to the Big Br Schoolmarms, if they feel like it? This counts toward "no such thing as LE" part, though.
Wait... a sequel had the "took a baby from the mom 'cause they're the good guys and know better" one, right? I guess under Hasbro this gave it unshakeable retcon-immunity, too.
By de name - the only one meme still left out is some variation of "overkill everyone including babies, because everyone there is mind-controlled by vile illithids from space (ah, right) from the Cthulhu Land"... Ugh, if i wanted comics with Small-Headed Ubermensch who can't even sort out their own pants protecting the Unworthy Sheeple from Mwahaha-ing Clowns, i'd read these comics. Oh, well... <sigh>  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
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Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2012 : 10:44:06
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
It probably is pointless, I agree, but it doesn't mean I won't rant about it This is something I feel strongly about.
Not everyone likes drow, and not everyone cares about E and V, but they are nevertheless popular enough, at least IMO, to make people want more. I'm not asking for goody-goody drow. Jarlaxle and Phaeraun (and the poor guy died twice) were some of my favorite characters too, along with Q'arlynd. But there were quite a few Eilistraeens I liked too--I was never too fond of Hilisstra, no matter which goddess she followed.
Having every drow book (except for maybe Drizzt) be about Lolthites and no more about Elisitraee or Vhaeraun--or any rebel drow, for that matter--will get just as old as having all Eilistraeens be goody-goody. If WotC is looking for balance, they aren't going to get it this way. I was sincerely hoping the drow would make a comeback in 5e, and with the rumors of the Sundering bringing back the gods, I was hoping that includes V and E. But now, if there isn't going to be anything about them or their followers, what is the point?
And E and V ARE tied to Lolth, as I've said. Every drow book I've read about non-Lolthite drow feature Lolthites as well. E and V being tied to Lolth is huge, IMO, so Wizards is making a huge mistake, IMO, and not to step on any toes, but at least in my opinion, if this proves true, it's the stupidest move since the Spellplague.
Had to get that off my chest.
I agree completely. But alas, Wizards are not known to go back on what they decided upon. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36804 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2012 : 11:54:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
It probably is pointless, I agree, but it doesn't mean I won't rant about it This is something I feel strongly about.
Not everyone likes drow, and not everyone cares about E and V, but they are nevertheless popular enough, at least IMO, to make people want more. I'm not asking for goody-goody drow. Jarlaxle and Phaeraun (and the poor guy died twice) were some of my favorite characters too, along with Q'arlynd. But there were quite a few Eilistraeens I liked too--I was never too fond of Hilisstra, no matter which goddess she followed.
Having every drow book (except for maybe Drizzt) be about Lolthites and no more about Elisitraee or Vhaeraun--or any rebel drow, for that matter--will get just as old as having all Eilistraeens be goody-goody. If WotC is looking for balance, they aren't going to get it this way. I was sincerely hoping the drow would make a comeback in 5e, and with the rumors of the Sundering bringing back the gods, I was hoping that includes V and E. But now, if there isn't going to be anything about them or their followers, what is the point?
And E and V ARE tied to Lolth, as I've said. Every drow book I've read about non-Lolthite drow feature Lolthites as well. E and V being tied to Lolth is huge, IMO, so Wizards is making a huge mistake, IMO, and not to step on any toes, but at least in my opinion, if this proves true, it's the stupidest move since the Spellplague.
Had to get that off my chest.
I agree completely. But alas, Wizards are not known to go back on what they decided upon.
You mean things like no RSEs or leaving Sembia alone?  |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 16 Nov 2012 : 22:08:32
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Say what? O.0 so does that mean Eilistraee and Vhaeraun won't be coming back, even in the Sundering? WotC could lose a lot of valuable costumers if they only focused on Lolth, IMO.
WotC not making novels/material about them after the Sundering doesn't mean that they won't come back. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2012 : 04:18:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Tanthalas
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Say what? O.0 so does that mean Eilistraee and Vhaeraun won't be coming back, even in the Sundering? WotC could lose a lot of valuable costumers if they only focused on Lolth, IMO.
WotC not making novels/material about them after the Sundering doesn't mean that they won't come back.
How so? If there is no material at all on them, then how are we to know? Are we just going to get a list of the drow gods, with Lolth the only one getting any attention? |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Tanthalas
Senior Scribe
Portugal
508 Posts |
Posted - 17 Nov 2012 : 19:20:28
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
[quote]How so? If there is no material at all on them, then how are we to know? Are we just going to get a list of the drow gods, with Lolth the only one getting any attention?
/shrug
That's a definite possibility. |
Sir Markham pointed out, drinking another brandy. "A chap who can point at you and say 'die' has the distinct advantage". |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2012 : 14:25:00
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| Hopefully WotC will change their mind on the whole no support for E and V. I was really looking forward to those two regaining a decent presence in the Realms. I mean this in the least negative way possible, but that is definitely a strike 1 against FR next IMO. Not sure if it will be a deal breaker for us, but drow are strongly tied to either Lolth's influence or rebelling against it and I have several players that were big fans of E and V. I would have liked to see an early novel series in 5e FR featuring followers of E and V. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
Edited by - Tarlyn on 23 Nov 2012 23:17:39 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 23 Nov 2012 : 21:47:41
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| I agree. It's a bad move on WotC's part, and while it's not a deal breaker for me either, it's a huge disappointment, and I'm now even more skeptical about their "moving forward". |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Lunarbeams
Acolyte
43 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2012 : 18:01:13
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The problem with Lloth is she makes the Drow a bit one side like a cookie cutter one dimensional and flat. I don't mind the Drow being evil but as long as done smart and intelligent way.
1. I want to know what is going on with the Drow in the Deep Wastes and Cormanthyr (simply I want to know what is going on with Fire Titans/Azer/Fire Giants in that order)
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"Software are easy to solve because they do not have egos. " |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2012 : 18:27:22
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| I think that's something of a cop-out, really. If not, it's passing the buck. Writers write, either out of desire or editorial mandate, drow as cookie cutter villains without depth or competency. We can point to Lolth as the blame for that, but really, it simply begs the question as to why Lolth isn't given more depth as a villain herself. Lolth's a greater goddess(somehow), she should have a broader character than what she is. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Lunarbeams
Acolyte
43 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2012 : 19:07:19
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| I mean it is far too easy to play Priestesses of Lloth well than one of E or V. There is some allure for being a follower of an underdog gods/goddesses in the Pantheon. I mean we accepted that Lloth is evil but not the how she is evil. I mean the Priestesses are doing evil acts in her name but that is one thing. So the greatest evil in Lloth did was to betray Corellon. I prefer villains as three dimensional and not flat. There is more to the Drow being the number one bad guy of the realms my question is how they got there. I am evil because I worship an evil goddess/god does not cut it with me. And the same holds true for the good chars. |
"Software are easy to solve because they do not have egos. " |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2012 : 21:30:23
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I'm not sure if this attitude is the result of laziness on the part of the writers or is simply a hold over of the days when it was literally not allowed for them to write villains well(or at least, it wasn't allowed for them to write villains being competent); if so many years of moral guardians wanting evil being portrayed a certain way and so many years of an outdated black and white mindset towards fantasy has simply ingrained it into the consciousness of too many writers.
Now, I don't much care for drow; my favorite race being orcs/half-orcs. In my home game (and you see flashes of this in the realms, but it's rarely expanded on) I give their culture and their society a lot of depth beyond RAPE! PILLAGE! BURN! MAIM! KILL!- that's still there, in parts, but it is far from being the end all be all of orcs in my realms where I show them to be a people that encompasses all the evil and neutral alignments(only occasionally dipping into good). But here's the thing; I still keep them mostly as Gruumsh worshipers.
Now, how do I justify this? Gruumsh is a god of savagery and slaughter, which doesn't jive well with characters outside of chaotic evil. But Gruumsh is also a god of strength- is that just physical strength? Or is it mental strength, too? Can it represent social and even economic strength? Sure, why not. Gruumsh is also a god of freedom and change and self reliance. His followers believe in having the strength to carve one's own path and make one's own way and find one's own truth in the world. He's also a god of storms, and what comes with that is being a god of fertility. His storms bring rain to the land to revitalize it and make crops grow. His lightning causes forest fires, clearing the land for fresh growth fed by those ashes. He's a god of vengeance, of never forgetting slights and for retaking one's proper place- he's a god of harsh justice, a patrons for victims who wish retribution against their tormentors.
It took me ten minutes of sitting down and thinking about it to find that much depth and that much variety in a deity that so many writers pigeon hole as the brute, the dumb muscle. And I could go on.
Now lets take Lolth; at her most basic she's a goddess of betrayal; she betrayed Corellon, she betrayed Gruumsh, she encourages her own people to betray each other on a daily basis, and she betrays them constantly. But she's a goddess of schemes- plots, plans, strategy. She's a goddess of fate while at the same time being a goddess of chaos, perhaps the ultimate in contradictions. She's the goddess of opportunity and survival; she seizes upon any opening granted to her, she survives no matter how harsh and hostile her situation, even alone and without allies. She's a goddess of conquest, taking that which she desires regardless of 'right'. And of course, she's the goddess of spiders. And what are spiders? In much of mythology they're tricksters who use guile and cunning to outmaneuver their enemies. They're the ultimate trap setters and ambush predators. They're pest control, culling pestilence before it becomes an infestation.
The point is, when we look at what the character represents and get passed the basics of "they're evil for the sake of it", there is depth there, there's the potential for Lolthite characters to have any number of personalities or motivations because Lolth as a greater goddess represents a large swath of ideals. This is as it should be; greater gods need to represent a large number of ideals to attract a large number of followers. They can't send down bolts of divine retribution whenever someone decides not to worship them anymore; there needs to be something about them that makes them honestly more appealing than any other option, and in the realms there is never a shortage of options when one's out godshopping |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2012 : 22:04:10
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Drow don't lack schemes, plotting and what you talked about when describing Lolth, they lack concrete motivation for doing so, just like their goddess.
When you talked about Gruumsh, you pointed out many aspects of what he represents that can actually give goals which are valid and concrete motivations for his followers to act (motivations which give depth to the characters). However the traits you describe for Lolth are ultimately tools for the only thing she wants to achieve: dominating the whole world to boost her ego, i.e. acting for 'teh evulz'. It is not the ability to achieve the goal that is missing here, but a valid reason who brings the character to want and work to achieve it (which appears to be just pleasing one's ego, in this case).
While Lolth is a goddess with many portfolios, she doesn't include many ideals in her concept, but only one: the schemer who plots all day long to make everything and everyone bow in submission to him/her. And this is what drow -brainwashed by such doctrine- try to emulate, the reason why they lack variety (and this last part is actually useful to Lolth, because it makes the drow easier to manipulate).
At the end of the day, the whole concept of Lolth should be reworked in order to give depth to the dark elves (besides reintroducing E and V in any form, and making drow who are not tied to any deity more prominent) IMO.
Too bad WotC seems to be so close minded with their current version of this race...
PS: Chaos and fate aren't in contradiction as I see it: chaotic events do have a definite ending ('fate'), even tho it's basically impossible to predict it. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 26 Nov 2012 22:17:07 |
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Lunarbeams
Acolyte
43 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2012 : 22:54:29
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It simple fact why do you want that kind of power as greater goddess. I remember one time Lolth wanted the power the Corellon has as father all elves. Yeah you can have simple villains as thugs but the Drow are not stupid for the most part greedy, scheming, backstabbing and murderous. There is always a goal or a method to their madness even though the goal poorly written or explained. I agree with Irennan on this.
I had some hope to why and the motivation behind the Drow and Lolth when it came to "Rise of the Underdark." |
"Software are easy to solve because they do not have egos. " |
Edited by - Lunarbeams on 26 Nov 2012 22:56:06 |
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Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 26 Nov 2012 : 23:53:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Drow don't lack schemes, plotting and what you talked about when describing Lolth, they lack concrete motivation for doing so, just like their goddess.
When you talked about Gruumsh, you pointed out many aspects of what he represents that can actually give goals which are valid and concrete motivations for his followers to act (motivations which give depth to the characters). However the traits you describe for Lolth are ultimately tools for the only thing she wants to achieve: dominating the whole world to boost her ego, i.e. acting for 'teh evulz'. It is not the ability to achieve the goal that is missing here, but a valid reason who brings the character to want and work to achieve it (which appears to be just pleasing one's ego, in this case).
While Lolth is a goddess with many portfolios, she doesn't include many ideals in her concept, but only one: the schemer who plots all day long to make everything and everyone bow in submission to him/her. And this is what drow -brainwashed by such doctrine- try to emulate, the reason why they lack variety (and this last part is actually useful to Lolth, because it makes the drow easier to manipulate).
At the end of the day, the whole concept of Lolth should be reworked in order to give depth to the dark elves (besides reintroducing E and V in any form, and making drow who are not tied to any deity more prominent) IMO.
Too bad WotC seems to be so close minded with their current version of this race...
PS: Chaos and fate aren't in contradiction as I see it: chaotic events do have a definite ending ('fate'), even tho it's basically impossible to predict it.
To an extent I agree with you; while I think the potential for someone smarter than me to give Lolth depth and a variety of motivations is there, I do think Lolth as she stands is one of the more limited gods in the Toril pantheon.
Honestly I've never felt she should have been elevated to Greater God status specifically for that reason; she appeals to too narrow a demographic to reach that status in my opinion, though I suspect it's mostly to do with her impersonating other gods.
As for fate and chaos, I believe they contradict on these grounds; to me, fate implies a plan, a greater chain of events set in to motion by an unseen hand with a definite end goal. There's an order and structure to it, even if we can't see it. Chaos, things just happen. There's no rhyme, no reason, no forethought or planning, things just happen. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2012 : 02:22:22
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There is some bias on my part, because I liked Vhaeraun and Eilistraee far better than I like Lolth (and spiders scare me), and I like drow, which is why I want them to have more variety and choice than just Lolth. It’s stupid not to have a big event like what happened in LP and not follow up on it. That leaves a lot of people hanging, and while not everyone likes drow, they are popular. I understand WotC can’t please everyone, I understand—there are things I didn’t like that other people are quite happy about, and visa versa—but…seriously. CoA, while I am no fan of Gruumsh or orcs, I think it’s cool you’ve made them more than killing brutes, and that they actually have a culture, and a reason for doing things.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
While Lolth is a goddess with many portfolios, she doesn't include many ideals in her concept, but only one: the schemer who plots all day long to make everything and everyone bow in submission to him/her. And this is what drow -brainwashed by such doctrine- try to emulate, the reason why they lack variety (and this last part is actually useful to Lolth, because it makes the drow easier to manipulate).
At the end of the day, the whole concept of Lolth should be reworked in order to give depth to the dark elves (besides reintroducing E and V in any form, and making drow who are not tied to any deity more prominent) IMO.
Too bad WotC seems to be so close minded with their current version of this race...
I agree with this, and reworking Lolth, so to speak, would be a big change in and of itself. I mean, yeah, deities change portfolios (be it through stealing or otherwise), but Lolth taking on V and E’s portfolio would be just as bad as not having them at all. Lolth cannot stand for both her ideals AND those of her offspring. That would be…I have no words for it. And as I’ve said before, V and E are tied to Lolth. They are her OFFSPRING, and directly oppose her. There is not a story about their followers that don’t somehow involve Lolth or her followers. I mean, yeah, the “changed” drow could follow the Seldarine, but that probably won’t be addressed either. And I’m still hung up about the soul idea too. Non-Lolthites, religious or not, should have somewhere else to go. Another god (or demon), can come and take them, but Lolth usually seems to be the “default”. I doubt most males worship Lolth, but she still takes their souls.
And it’s just a bad business move, IMO. Drow are popular, and V and E were popular. I don’t want them to off Lolth—much as I hate her—but there should be more of a variety. If they still want drow to be scheming, they can get that with E and V. Eilistraeens are schemers in their own right. It’s just a bad move. Not a complete deal breaker, but WotC should be careful. It’s hard enough for them to bring people back after being disappointed by 4e.
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Sweet water and light laughter |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2012 : 02:11:03
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| I think that in general drow are one of D&D's most developed races. Between novels and game product, I would argue that the drow have received more development attention than any other race. Even Lolth worshiping drow are more than one trick ponies, however the pantheon reduction in general didn't expand the drow. It cut away some of the complexity that various authors over the editions added into drow society in Realms. I don't see the need for the drow to lose their iconic deities in Realms when settings like Greyhawk exist that already have the Lolth only situation covered. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2012 : 02:31:20
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quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
There is some bias on my part, because I liked Vhaeraun and Eilistraee far better than I like Lolth (and spiders scare me), and I like drow, which is why I want them to have more variety and choice than just Lolth. It’s stupid not to have a big event like what happened in LP and not follow up on it. That leaves a lot of people hanging, and while not everyone likes drow, they are popular. I understand WotC can’t please everyone, I understand—there are things I didn’t like that other people are quite happy about, and visa versa—but…seriously. CoA, while I am no fan of Gruumsh or orcs, I think it’s cool you’ve made them more than killing brutes, and that they actually have a culture, and a reason for doing things.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
While Lolth is a goddess with many portfolios, she doesn't include many ideals in her concept, but only one: the schemer who plots all day long to make everything and everyone bow in submission to him/her. And this is what drow -brainwashed by such doctrine- try to emulate, the reason why they lack variety (and this last part is actually useful to Lolth, because it makes the drow easier to manipulate).
At the end of the day, the whole concept of Lolth should be reworked in order to give depth to the dark elves (besides reintroducing E and V in any form, and making drow who are not tied to any deity more prominent) IMO.
Too bad WotC seems to be so close minded with their current version of this race...
I agree with this, and reworking Lolth, so to speak, would be a big change in and of itself. I mean, yeah, deities change portfolios (be it through stealing or otherwise), but Lolth taking on V and E’s portfolio would be just as bad as not having them at all. Lolth cannot stand for both her ideals AND those of her offspring. That would be…I have no words for it. And as I’ve said before, V and E are tied to Lolth. They are her OFFSPRING, and directly oppose her. There is not a story about their followers that don’t somehow involve Lolth or her followers. I mean, yeah, the “changed” drow could follow the Seldarine, but that probably won’t be addressed either. And I’m still hung up about the soul idea too. Non-Lolthites, religious or not, should have somewhere else to go. Another god (or demon), can come and take them, but Lolth usually seems to be the “default”. I doubt most males worship Lolth, but she still takes their souls.
And it’s just a bad business move, IMO. Drow are popular, and V and E were popular. I don’t want them to off Lolth—much as I hate her—but there should be more of a variety. If they still want drow to be scheming, they can get that with E and V. Eilistraeens are schemers in their own right. It’s just a bad move. Not a complete deal breaker, but WotC should be careful. It’s hard enough for them to bring people back after being disappointed by 4e.
Honestly, I don't want E and V back only in relation to Lolth. They stand for valid concepts on their own, and not everything they or their followers do is geared toward that conflict (and I don't really see why Eilistraee should seek war with Lolth). They represent the act of forging one's own path, fighting for one's own choices and freedom either trough love and creation (not stupid good mode, tho...), or through violence. I'd like to see this played out both inside the drow society and out of it, in relation with the rest of Faerun (keeping in mind that such drow should be few, tho). Having everything drow-related involve Lolth got tiresome and annoying.
Also, having Lolth reworked into something more than 'I want powah and act for teh evulz to boost my ego' would be cool. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 28 Nov 2012 02:36:01 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2012 : 04:04:35
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| But at her core, Lolth IS about ego. She is the "classic spoiled princess" type, who throws a tantrum when she doesn't get what she wants. That is her prime character trait. On the surface, it seems trite and one-dimensional, but it's the root of her personality, and thus, drives everything she does. She can't stand losing, wants to be on top of the world, and is spiteful, petulant, and petty. That is simply her nature. She's the archtypical bitter ex, and just wants to get back at the one she feels spurned by. She feels angry, ignored, and unjustly punished. Her entire existance has become about reclaiming what she feels was taken from her unfairly. OF COURSE she is going to encourage her followers to do the same! |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2012 : 09:58:07
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^Yeah, and that's a really interesting kind of villain, isn't it? It reminds me of the antagonist in some Disney stories for children. Her concept doesn't deserve all the attention it gets, IMO.
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Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Shere Khan
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2012 : 16:17:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
^Yeah, and that's a really interesting kind of villain, isn't it? It reminds me of the antagonist in some Disney stories for children. Her concept doesn't deserve all the attention it gets, IMO.
Except unlike Disney characters, women with personalities very much like Lolth's do exist in real life. I've known one or two in my time, and they're scary. Their friends, their husbands, and even their children are just tools to be manipulated in order to further their own aggrandizement, and the more power they manage to accumulate, the more dangerous they become. A few of them are even willing to poison their own children in order to gain your sympathy (Munchausen by proxy). Most of these spiteful creatures are too broken to terrorize anyone beyond their immediate families and a few "friends" or "lovers" who are foolish enough to do their bidding, but those that are better at appearing normal sometimes manage to acquire real power, and then things can get really ugly. |
Edited by - Shere Khan on 28 Nov 2012 16:19:23 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2012 : 16:29:55
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I wasn't saying that Lolth personality is 'unrealistic'(both in men and women), but that I consider it boring and depth-less, not deserving all the attention it gets. All of this IMO, ofc.
Even if something could be found in RL, it shouldn't automatically be there in fantasy as well. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 28 Nov 2012 16:30:43 |
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Shere Khan
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2012 : 17:48:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I wasn't saying that Lolth personality is 'unrealistic'(both in men and women), but that I consider it boring and depth-less, not deserving all the attention it gets. All of this IMO, ofc.
Even if something could be found in RL, it shouldn't automatically be there in fantasy as well.
While the trope doesn't resonate with you, it does resonate with a very large proportion of the population. In fact it's a staple in programming aimed at the female demographic (eg. Lifetime Television, or even the recent Snow White and the Huntsman), and lots of men enjoy it too. Furthermore, I disagree that it is boring or depthless. Highly twisted individuals can be some of the most fascinating to read, as long as the author writing them takes the effort to make them come alive.
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Edited by - Shere Khan on 28 Nov 2012 17:48:31 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2012 : 20:12:23
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Yes, that's why I said that what I wrote is all in my opinion. I realize that people like Lolth, and that's fine ofc, but as I see it she gets too much development for what she offers (she is a 'for the evil' kind of villain, whose personality is all about 1 thing and has never grown up to now, and whose motivation do lack depth, being basically a mix of madness and vanity).
I'm fine with insane villains, but I'd like them to stay in the background, not as the #1 threat. Personally, I think that antagonists with concrete motivation and goal can add much more depth than 'ancient uber evils' or Lolth-like characters. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 29 Nov 2012 : 04:33:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
There is some bias on my part, because I liked Vhaeraun and Eilistraee far better than I like Lolth (and spiders scare me), and I like drow, which is why I want them to have more variety and choice than just Lolth. It’s stupid not to have a big event like what happened in LP and not follow up on it. That leaves a lot of people hanging, and while not everyone likes drow, they are popular. I understand WotC can’t please everyone, I understand—there are things I didn’t like that other people are quite happy about, and visa versa—but…seriously. CoA, while I am no fan of Gruumsh or orcs, I think it’s cool you’ve made them more than killing brutes, and that they actually have a culture, and a reason for doing things.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
While Lolth is a goddess with many portfolios, she doesn't include many ideals in her concept, but only one: the schemer who plots all day long to make everything and everyone bow in submission to him/her. And this is what drow -brainwashed by such doctrine- try to emulate, the reason why they lack variety (and this last part is actually useful to Lolth, because it makes the drow easier to manipulate).
At the end of the day, the whole concept of Lolth should be reworked in order to give depth to the dark elves (besides reintroducing E and V in any form, and making drow who are not tied to any deity more prominent) IMO.
Too bad WotC seems to be so close minded with their current version of this race...
I agree with this, and reworking Lolth, so to speak, would be a big change in and of itself. I mean, yeah, deities change portfolios (be it through stealing or otherwise), but Lolth taking on V and E’s portfolio would be just as bad as not having them at all. Lolth cannot stand for both her ideals AND those of her offspring. That would be…I have no words for it. And as I’ve said before, V and E are tied to Lolth. They are her OFFSPRING, and directly oppose her. There is not a story about their followers that don’t somehow involve Lolth or her followers. I mean, yeah, the “changed” drow could follow the Seldarine, but that probably won’t be addressed either. And I’m still hung up about the soul idea too. Non-Lolthites, religious or not, should have somewhere else to go. Another god (or demon), can come and take them, but Lolth usually seems to be the “default”. I doubt most males worship Lolth, but she still takes their souls.
And it’s just a bad business move, IMO. Drow are popular, and V and E were popular. I don’t want them to off Lolth—much as I hate her—but there should be more of a variety. If they still want drow to be scheming, they can get that with E and V. Eilistraeens are schemers in their own right. It’s just a bad move. Not a complete deal breaker, but WotC should be careful. It’s hard enough for them to bring people back after being disappointed by 4e.
Honestly, I don't want E and V back only in relation to Lolth. They stand for valid concepts on their own, and not everything they or their followers do is geared toward that conflict (and I don't really see why Eilistraee should seek war with Lolth). They represent the act of forging one's own path, fighting for one's own choices and freedom either trough love and creation (not stupid good mode, tho...), or through violence. I'd like to see this played out both inside the drow society and out of it, in relation with the rest of Faerun (keeping in mind that such drow should be few, tho). Having everything drow-related involve Lolth got tiresome and annoying.
Also, having Lolth reworked into something more than 'I want powah and act for teh evulz to boost my ego' would be cool.
Oh yeah, I like V and E for what they stand for, and what their followers fight for. But since WotC doesn't plan on writing anything drow related that isn't tied to Lolth, I was using the argument that they ARE tied to her, so it doesn't make sense to exclude them. Even if Lolth doesn't actually appear in any of the novels, V and Es followers have their ideals, and they try to convert Lolthites, or fight against them. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Thoth
Acolyte
Canada
31 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2017 : 11:14:43
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| LOL! With all the canceling going on, I'll be happy with any novels now... |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 14 Mar 2017 : 13:21:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Thoth
LOL! With all the canceling going on, I'll be happy with any novels now...
On the topic of this thread, the return of the drow gods and the new alliance between Eilistraee and Vhaeraun deserves a novel on its own, rather than just a few lines cattered here and there. But yeah, it's very unlikely that we'll ever get that. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 16 Mar 2017 : 04:43:22
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| None. I'm so sick of the drow. Add Tieflings to that as well. They can all go away. But it doesn't matter. We will get no more FR novels. |
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Topic |
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Drow Novels Other Than Lloth-Based
