| Author |
 Topic  |
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Nov 2012 : 05:25:06
|
Why are you so much against the gods?
Religion is a big part of many drow's life. Yes, there are exceptions, but for the most part, a drow-centered story (unless you count maybe Drizzt) is going to likely deal with religion, even if the gods don't interfere directly. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 07 Nov 2012 05:38:27 |
 |
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2012 : 05:52:41
|
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Why are you so much against the gods?
In general? I believe we had that conversation before.
In this context though, it's not exactly the gods that I am against with, but the removal of the potential for what the drow could do if they are left to "stand on their own two feet." |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2012 : 05:52:47
|
| Haha yeah, we have XD do you wish they weren't in the Realms at all, or you just don't like the attention they get? I think the gods are a governing factor in the Realms, whether they are involved directly with their followers or not. I mean, even the non-religious invoke the gods' names, particularly ones like Tymora. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2012 : 06:03:12
|
Heh. Invoking a god's name does not mean the invoker believes in him/her/it. Besides, many Torilians only invoke the gods' names when cursing. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2012 : 06:06:50
|
| Granted, but they still know that god exists, even if it is only lip service. It's not just faith-based. I mean, at least they know their is a Tymora whom they invoke when they want luck. They may not worship her, but they acknowledge her. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
Shere Khan
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2012 : 15:48:27
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I also didn't vote. I like Vhaeraun, but not the Jaezred Chaulsin. And none of the others interest me enough to want to read an entire novel on them. I might do it for Ghaunaduar, but possibly not.
My thoughts and feelings exactly. I do very much like Vhaeraun, but the dragons, half-dragons and dragon-blooded of the Jaezred Chaulsin don't particularly interest me.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Fellfire
I am surprised that none have mentioned House Jaelre and the drow in Cormanthor. Of course, I've no idea what became of them after LP or if they've even survived post-SP.
I wouldn't mind learning more of the happenings of the Cormanthyr drow.
Now this I'd love to read about. Great idea.
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Jaezred! I'd like to read more about him, and how House Jaelre (sp?) is fairing, now that Vhaeraun is dead (hopefully 5e remedies that). I'd also like to know what Q'arlynd is up to, and how that drow mage school in Ssamath (again, sp?) is doing.
On the subject of Vhaeraun's possible return, I'm reminded of the time Vecna "absorbed" Iuz. Nevertheless Iuz wasn't destroyed, and somehow managed to escape and become a separate entity again when Vecna had his derriere kicked in Sigil. That event was even used as one of the explanations for the transition from 2e to 3e. So there is certainly precedent for this sort of thing.
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
Why are you so much against the gods?
Religion is a big part of many drow's life. Yes, there are exceptions, but for the most part, a drow-centered story (unless you count maybe Drizzt) is going to likely deal with religion, even if the gods don't interfere directly.
I'd say this is more true in priestess (or priest) lead drow cities than outside of them. Religion isn't important as a matter of faith so much as it is as an official tool of control. Lolthian priestesses in particular are quick to play the religion card to exert their control over other drow. Take the clergy (including most of the female nobility) out of the equation and the typical Menzoberranzanyr drow is unlikely to be any more religious or faithful than surface folk, probably even less so since they've repeatedly seen religious power abused first-hand. I thus think it would be fairly easy to base an adventure or novel around say wizard-run Sshamath or Bregan D'aerthe's actions on the surface with little to no mention of religion.
|
Edited by - Shere Khan on 08 Nov 2012 15:50:27 |
|
|
|
Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 05:13:38
|
| I'd like to see a tale or two on the ones in cormanthor, and I'm more interested in the Jaezred Chaulsin than most of the others, but I'd take any of them if the story and characters were good. I'd also like to see the transformed dark elves, the current status of Dark Maiden's followers, and.... Oh, heck, just bring on the drow!!! I will say that I would like to see more of them even without the involvement of gods, as well. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
|
|
|
Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 09:35:34
|
| I agree that the Cormanthor drow are worthy of getting a novel (or two) at last... |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
|
|
|
TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 15:27:15
|
quote:
Originally posted by Zireael
I agree that the Cormanthor drow are worthy of getting a novel (or two) at last...
Aye, and the best part is that they're stuck in the middle of everything, so while they don't exactly prosper, they have to play very complex and dangerous games. They must interact with surface elves, fiends, human factions, drow traders with routes near their territory, etc. |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 19:21:44
|
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I'd like to see a tale or two on the ones in cormanthor, and I'm more interested in the Jaezred Chaulsin than most of the others, but I'd take any of them if the story and characters were good. I'd also like to see the transformed dark elves, the current status of Dark Maiden's followers, and.... Oh, heck, just bring on the drow!!! I will say that I would like to see more of them even without the involvement of gods, as well.
Hear hear! I like House Jaelre, even though they opposed the Cormantherian elves. I still like drow. And the Jaerzed Chaulsin would be nice too. I liked Nimor (or was that a different one?). Annnd...the results of LP, please. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2012 : 09:09:36
|
I've had enough of Nimor and Jaezred Chaulssin. Especially Nimor is not likely to come back.
The results of Lady Penitent I'd really love to see. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
|
|
|
Brian R. James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
1098 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2012 : 18:01:02
|
| Wizards of the Coast has absolutely ZERO interest in publishing drow material that is not tied to Lolth. I tried, *really* I tried but they are not budging. Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue was pretty much your last hope of ever seeing the results of the Lady Penitent trilogy, and that material ended up on the cutting room floor. |
Brian R. James - Freelance Game Designer
Follow me on Twitter @brianrjames |
|
|
|
Shere Khan
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2012 : 19:53:32
|
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
Wizards of the Coast has absolutely ZERO interest in publishing drow material that is not tied to Lolth. I tried, *really* I tried but they are not budging. Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue was pretty much your last hope of ever seeing the results of the Lady Penitent trilogy, and that material ended up on the cutting room floor.
Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue tried to do too much in too few pages. It really should have been twice the size that it was, or alternatively, a two volume set. This is not a knock on you personally, but as an update it falls short in so many different ways that I can't help but be disappointed. I can only imagine all the interesting material that got left on the cutting room floor... I don't suppose it's possible that WotC might be convinced to release the cut material as a free online addendum? |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2012 : 21:03:54
|
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
Wizards of the Coast has absolutely ZERO interest in publishing drow material that is not tied to Lolth. I tried, *really* I tried but they are not budging. Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue was pretty much your last hope of ever seeing the results of the Lady Penitent trilogy, and that material ended up on the cutting room floor.
Perhaps Ed would have a better chance? |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2012 : 21:42:34
|
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
Wizards of the Coast has absolutely ZERO interest in publishing drow material that is not tied to Lolth. I tried, *really* I tried but they are not budging. Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue was pretty much your last hope of ever seeing the results of the Lady Penitent trilogy, and that material ended up on the cutting room floor.
Say what? O.0 so does that mean Eilistraee and Vhaeraun won't be coming back, even in the Sundering? WotC could lose a lot of valuable costumers if they only focused on Lolth, IMO.
I mean, books with V and E can still be tied to Lolth, can't they? The ones in the past have been, especially since their followers are working against her. Drow are popular, and restricting the drow only to Lolth just makes them all the same. I'm not implying we need more Drizzt clones, but I've loved many of the followers of Vhaeraun and Eilistraee.
This news does not make me happy. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
Edited by - CorellonsDevout on 10 Nov 2012 22:21:04 |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 10 Nov 2012 : 23:48:38
|
To further add: I don't mean to be rude, so I apologize if I am, but this is rather disappointing. Next to elves, drow are my favorite race (ironic, no?), but narrowing their pantheon down to Lolth is making it not a pantheon at all, and it basically labeling them nonredeemable, unless they turned to the Seldarine--which is possible--but as discussed in other threads, V and E (particularly E), stood for so much. I thought 5e was going to be about moving forward. Drow make excellent characters, and you can have good drow characters without them being Drizzt clones, can't you? Making drow solely Lolthites is a step backward, not forward, at least IMO. What races will be featured in future novels then? Humans, with maybe a smattering of elves or halflings or dwarves here and there?
WotC is throwing a way a lot of potential if they are only going to focus on Lolth-tied novels.
|
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
Zireael
Master of Realmslore
Poland
1190 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2012 : 14:56:15
|
quote:
Originally posted by Shere Khan
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
Wizards of the Coast has absolutely ZERO interest in publishing drow material that is not tied to Lolth. I tried, *really* I tried but they are not budging. Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue was pretty much your last hope of ever seeing the results of the Lady Penitent trilogy, and that material ended up on the cutting room floor.
Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue tried to do too much in too few pages. It really should have been twice the size that it was, or alternatively, a two volume set. This is not a knock on you personally, but as an update it falls short in so many different ways that I can't help but be disappointed. I can only imagine all the interesting material that got left on the cutting room floor... I don't suppose it's possible that WotC might be convinced to release the cut material as a free online addendum?
Alas, that is true, and I hope there is a free web enhancement to Menzo. |
SiNafay Vrinn, the daughter of Lloth, from Ched Nasad!
http://zireael07.wordpress.com/ |
|
|
|
BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2012 : 18:12:04
|
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
[...] narrowing their pantheon down to Lolth is making it not a pantheon at all [...]
Monotheon? Unitheon? |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
|
|
|
Chosen of Asmodeus
Master of Realmslore
1221 Posts |
Posted - 11 Nov 2012 : 19:24:53
|
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by CorellonsDevout
[...] narrowing their pantheon down to Lolth is making it not a pantheon at all [...]
Monotheon? Unitheon?
Monotheism, though one could argue that by eliminating her own pantheon Lolth simply becomes part of the larger Faerunian pantheon.
Anyway, as to the question at hand, I didn't vote as I'd be perfectly fine never reading a novel about drow again, but since that isn't going to happen(my aunt keeps gifting me the Drizzt books), I'd like to see a book on drow of another location rather than faith. I'd like to see drow of some place other than Menzoberranzan. |
"Then I saw there was a way to Hell even from the gates of Heaven"
- John Bunyan, Pilgrim's Progress
Fatum Iustum Stultorum. Righteous is the destiny of fools.
The Roleplayer's Gazebo;
http://theroleplayersgazebo.yuku.com/directory#.Ub4hvvlJOAY |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2012 : 00:11:49
|
quote:
Originally posted by Brian R. James
Wizards of the Coast has absolutely ZERO interest in publishing drow material that is not tied to Lolth. I tried, *really* I tried but they are not budging. Menzoberranzan: City of Intrigue was pretty much your last hope of ever seeing the results of the Lady Penitent trilogy, and that material ended up on the cutting room floor.
Yay! So cool... They really know how to listen to customers and their own authors. Whatever pleases them.
And at this point I'd really like to know the reason for this 'hatred' towards anything drow-ish non Lolth based, considering that many people happen to enjoy such things. This kind of attitude doesn't have any purpose as I see it, except getting on some people's nerves. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 13 Nov 2012 00:24:31 |
|
|
|
Euranna
Learned Scribe
USA
219 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2012 : 01:01:24
|
I like my drow evil. But I too am interested in what became of the redeemed dark elves. Or even the drow that worshipped the Dark Maiden when she died (and were not of the blood line that was redeemed).
Of course, I am not saying that all I want to see if drow. |
|
|
|
CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2012 : 04:05:34
|
Drow make good "villains", but I like to see a dose of good drow too. WotSQ and LP were some of my favorite Realms novels. Even if there were "issues" with LP, it would still be nice to see a continuation of the series. Sometimes loose ends are okay, but when you have a series that obviously needs more of an explanation (and LP is not the only one), it can lead to disappointment.
Perhaps it is too soon to jump to conclusions, but if what Brian R James says is indeed true, it renders other threads here null. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
|
|
|
Shere Khan
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2012 : 05:10:33
|
The following is merely my opinion, but it's a strongly held one:
More high profile good Drow running around on the surface is precisely what I don't want to see. The extremely rare exceptions should stay extremely rare exceptions, and not turn into a new norm. Drow that are evil, or at least neutral (unaligned as they call it these days), I don't mind. Give me evil with charm like Jarlaxle or Pharaun, not rainbows and unicorns (that's what eladrins are for), not gullibly naive evangelists (Eilstraee and her priestesses were all but begging to die in WotSQ) , and definitely not more noble, angst-ridden, congenitally-good battle-gods (one Drizzt is plenty). |
Edited by - Shere Khan on 13 Nov 2012 05:13:58 |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2012 : 07:29:02
|
Good drow? Meh. Non-evil but chaotic/neutral is okay, but lawful good? No-no. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2012 : 07:53:32
|
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Yay! So cool... They really know how to listen to customers and their own authors. Whatever pleases them.
And at this point I'd really like to know the reason for this 'hatred' towards anything drow-ish non Lolth based, considering that many people happen to enjoy such things. This kind of attitude doesn't have any purpose as I see it, except getting on some people's nerves.
No reason. Just random fan****. There was Magic of StarWarnum, there was rather boring "kabbalistique" stuffing mixed with painful immaturity in BoED/BoVD, there were "Sin Eaters of Eilistraee", and next generation is going to be... dunno, Twilight fans, maybe? 
So, just like other lulz, but from entitled folk who know better. As usual.
Either that, or some obscure point from the same department as "there's no such thing as Lawful Evil". |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2012 : 09:27:34
|
On the good drow point: that topic has already been discussed here many times. Eilistraeens don't make drow less evil or threatening, they're supposed to be few and are supposed to fight for the freedom of their people, not to be some ponies parody. I really don't see how this can make the situation worse, all it does is making it infinitely more interesting than 'drow = all Lolth puppets but 2-3 super guys', it adds depth to a flat race and it is characteristic of the Forgotten Realms. Seriously, I don't get why some people deem good drow harmful or absurd (like if it's so unthinkable of someone who got rid of Lolth indoctrination to help someone in need instead of telling him/her 'screw you'): having a -small- group of them can actually lead to interesting plots (something that the Eilistraee/Vhaeraun-archfey solution would've accomplished just fine, but they cut it anyway). Also it's up to the DM to choose what to include in the setting; people who want a little more material about this matter don't have such a choice.
Also there's the fact that -face it- a race completely made up of people who go 'mwahaha for powah' all day long, or neutral at best is cheap and rather trivial.
Anyway this is kinda pointless, since Wizards probably won't listen. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 13 Nov 2012 09:55:37 |
|
|
|
TBeholder
Great Reader
2428 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2012 : 09:57:19
|
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
On the good drow point: that topic has already been discussed here many times. Eilistraeens don't make drow less evil or threatening, they're supposed to be few and are supposed to fight for the freedom of their people, not to be some ponies parody.
Far from "few", but yeah - these ladies aren't here just for moonlit fanservice.  They are mostly converted Lolthites and as such tend to be equally or more jumpy, for one. As in "Seven Sisters", and "Silverfall", etc. Those in "Starlight and Shadows" and "War of the Spider Queen" were hot-blooded and excitable too.
So it's kind of cool. Anyway, it looks like many of us like our drow keen and CN - such as Jarlaxle, early Liriel and Pharaun.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Seriously, I don't get why some people deem good drow harmful or absurd (like if it's so unthinkable of someone who got rid of Lolth indoctrination to help someone in need instead of telling him/her 'screw you')
Also, it's not like the Multiverse leaves them no choice but the traditional drow gods. It's just for loners or communities other than theocratic cities. As was mentioned above, there are trade companies, mercenaries, Sshamath, places with mixed population like Skullport...
And yeah, for "zomg, Dark Powers bothered to set me up again!" there's Ravenloft.  |
People never wonder How the world goes round -Helloween
And even I make no pretense Of having more than common sense -R.W.Wood
It's not good, Eric. It's a gazebo. -Ed Whitchurch |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2012 : 10:22:53
|
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
On the good drow point: that topic has already been discussed here many times. Eilistraeens don't make drow less evil or threatening, they're supposed to be few and are supposed to fight for the freedom of their people, not to be some ponies parody.
Far from "few", but yeah - these ladies aren't here just for moonlit fanservice. They are mostly converted Lolthites and as such tend to be equally or more jumpy, for one. As in "Seven Sisters", and "Silverfall", etc. Those in "Starlight and Shadows" and "War of the Spider Queen" were hot-blooded and excitable too.
So it's kind of cool. Anyway, it looks like many of us like our drow keen and CN - such as Jarlaxle, early Liriel and Pharaun.
Many people enjoy Eilistraeens as well for the struggle for freedom they represent. Also, good people can be keen too (and must be so in order to survive). And actually the majority of converted Eilistraeens should be CN-like (a bit like Liriel) rather than good.
About the percentages, they should have just shrunk them. Removing them from the setting was a bad move which made the drow way poorer. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
|
|
|
Shere Khan
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2012 : 20:56:03
|
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
On the good drow point: that topic has already been discussed here many times. Eilistraeens don't make drow less evil or threatening, they're supposed to be few and are supposed to fight for the freedom of their people, not to be some ponies parody. I really don't see how this can make the situation worse, all it does is making it infinitely more interesting than 'drow = all Lolth puppets but 2-3 super guys', it adds depth to a flat race and it is characteristic of the Forgotten Realms.
I don't have an issue with Eilistraee in theory. I think she fills a useful niche. What I don't like is when she and her priestesses are depicted as gullibly naive starry-eyed fools as they were in WotSQ. Eilstraee has been dealing with her mother's treachery for millenia. Converted Lolthian drow like Hallistra were weaned on treachery and would never have survived to become and hold the position of first daughter without a great deal of skill at intrigue. Lolth is a goddess who embraces treachery among other things, and Eilstraee's priestesses should well know what they're up against when dealing with Lolthian drow. And yet, it was as if they were all hit with a stupid stick and lobotomized in WotSQ, including Hallistra herself after she converted.
quote:
Seriously, I don't get why some people deem good drow harmful or absurd (like if it's so unthinkable of someone who got rid of Lolth indoctrination to help someone in need instead of telling him/her 'screw you'):
Of course Lolth's high priestesses, weaned on betrayal and treachery, will never ever pretend to convert in order to slaughter lots of Eilestraeen heretics, or simply to temporarily save their own skins.
quote:
having a -small- group of them can actually lead to interesting plots
Sure, as long as the group remains small, clearly understands that it is the underdog, and doesn't suddenly start dreaming that they can take out Lolth herself by naively trusting a newly converted ex-high priestess of Lolth with a god-slaying weapon.
quote:
(something that the Eilistraee/Vhaeraun-archfey solution would've accomplished just fine, but they cut it anyway). Also it's up to the DM to choose what to include in the setting; people who want a little more material about this matter don't have such a choice.
I'm fine with bringing E & V back. I actually like both of them. I just dislike the way they've been depicted at times, especially in WotSQ. I expect V to be more subtle and less rash (although I suppose it's possible much of his behavior was an act), and I expect E to play a long game against her mother's superior power, and not to gamble everything on a naive and foolhardy gambit with very bad odds.
quote:
Also there's the fact that -face it- a race completely made up of people who go 'mwahaha for powah' all day long, or neutral at best is cheap and rather trivial.
And somehow noble self-sacrificing heroes with 21st century Hollywood morals are less trivial and boringly predictable? Few things annoy me as much as characters infused with 21st century political correctness that never had the benefit of a 21st century upbringing. Count me among the legion of fans who were annoyed when Han Solo was edited to not have shot first in the new release of Star Wars. Good guys aren't supposed to shoot first you see, it sets a bad example for the children who are watching... *eyeroll* And of course if the bad guy points a weapon at a hostage the good guy -must- drop his weapon. (Luckily bad guys in film are always too stupid, cue corny laughter, to immediately shoot the good guy once he disarms himself.) If actual cops and soldiers ascribed to Hollywood morality, there'd be a lot more dead cops and soldiers in this world.
quote:
Anyway this is kinda pointless, since Wizards probably won't listen.
Sad, but most likely true. |
Edited by - Shere Khan on 13 Nov 2012 21:12:43 |
|
|
|
Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3806 Posts |
Posted - 13 Nov 2012 : 22:32:00
|
quote:
Originally posted by Shere Khan
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
On the good drow point: that topic has already been discussed here many times. Eilistraeens don't make drow less evil or threatening, they're supposed to be few and are supposed to fight for the freedom of their people, not to be some ponies parody. I really don't see how this can make the situation worse, all it does is making it infinitely more interesting than 'drow = all Lolth puppets but 2-3 super guys', it adds depth to a flat race and it is characteristic of the Forgotten Realms.
I don't have an issue with Eilistraee in theory. I think she fills a useful niche. What I don't like is when she and her priestesses are depicted as gullibly naive starry-eyed fools as they were in WotSQ. Eilstraee has been dealing with her mother's treachery for millenia. Converted Lolthian drow like Hallistra were weaned on treachery and would never have survived to become and hold the position of first daughter without a great deal of skill at intrigue. Lolth is a goddess who embraces treachery among other things, and Eilstraee's priestesses should well know what they're up against when dealing with Lolthian drow. And yet, it was as if they were all hit with a stupid stick and lobotomized in WotSQ, including Hallistra herself after she converted.
quote:
Seriously, I don't get why some people deem good drow harmful or absurd (like if it's so unthinkable of someone who got rid of Lolth indoctrination to help someone in need instead of telling him/her 'screw you'):
Of course Lolth's high priestesses, weaned on betrayal and treachery, will never ever pretend to convert in order to slaughter lots of Eilestraeen heretics, or simply to temporarily save their own skins.
quote:
having a -small- group of them can actually lead to interesting plots
Sure, as long as the group remains small, clearly understands that it is the underdog, and doesn't suddenly start dreaming that they can take out Lolth herself by naively trusting a newly converted ex-high priestess of Lolth with a god-slaying weapon.
quote:
(something that the Eilistraee/Vhaeraun-archfey solution would've accomplished just fine, but they cut it anyway). Also it's up to the DM to choose what to include in the setting; people who want a little more material about this matter don't have such a choice.
I'm fine with bringing E & V back. I actually like both of them. I just dislike the way they've been depicted at times, especially in WotSQ. I expect V to be more subtle and less rash (although I suppose it's possible much of his behavior was an act), and I expect E to play a long game against her mother's superior power, and not to gamble everything on a naive and foolhardy gambit with very bad odds.
quote:
Anyway this is kinda pointless, since Wizards probably won't listen.
Sad, but most likely true.
Yes, I agree with you on their depiction. Neither E nor V were given a good portrayal in those novels. But hey: the whole thing to take out Lolth by trusting a not so smart and loyal converted priestess was just a deus ex machina to remove them from canon, so no big surprise to me. Also, yes: they should indeed be rebels and underdogs, it's part of what make them interesting.
quote:
quote:
Also there's the fact that -face it- a race completely made up of people who go 'mwahaha for powah' all day long, or neutral at best is cheap and rather trivial.
And somehow noble self-sacrificing heroes with 21st century Hollywood morals are less trivial and boringly predictable? Few things annoy me as much as characters infused with 21st century political correctness that never had the benefit of a 21st century upbringing. Count me among the legion of fans who were annoyed when Han Solo was edited to not have shot first in the new release of Star Wars. Good guys aren't supposed to shoot first you see, it sets a bad example for the children who are watching... *eyeroll* And of course if the bad guy points a weapon at a hostage the good guy -must- drop his weapon. (Luckily bad guys in film are always too stupid, cue corny laughter, to immediately shoot the good guy once he disarms himself.) If actual cops and soldiers ascribed to Hollywood morality, there'd be a lot more dead cops and soldiers in this world.
True, both stereotypes are cheap. I like 'good' guys to use violence when needed and even go 'shoot-first, talk after' as long as it is appropriate and not just to show how 'badass and shady' they are. I like evil guys to not be 'evulz' but to have concrete reasons for what they do, not some generic 'power and riches'. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 13 Nov 2012 22:44:13 |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Drow Novels Other Than Lloth-Based
